Changelog 1.132 Feedback

[qaccy]

Again, not relevant. You guys simply can't see the forest for the trees. A GB should never cost 1 player any more FPs to level than any other player, period. How many you can generate makes no difference. You also seem to ignore that the vast majority of players do not have level 80+ arcs and also have very few SoKs. So the majority of players do not generate massive amounts of FPs.

The majority of players also do little more than log in once per day and rotate their marginal FP collections among their 3-6 GBs that are all below level 10. These people aren't even fair to consider for the discussion, as they aren't going to even build something like the TA in the first place, much less notice or care that it suddenly got a nominal increase to level cost. These are players with cities haphazardly laid out, and despite some of them even making it as far as Arctic Future or beyond, probably haven't built a GB higher than the Middle Ages. No, the sort of player who is chasing down high-age GBs does indeed have plenty of FP to utilize for levelling them...if they didn't, they wouldn't be looking to build them in the first place because only in a very few instances is a GB worth the space it consumes at something like level 1 or 2. The TA is definitely not one of these.

 

[BruteForceAttack]

I wonder how many of us would complain if Inno had changed the fp requirements the other way around, i.e reduced the fps by 4%

Shame on Inno as they couldn't to math in the first place, several other e.g Crystal villa/Oracle Delphi. How hard is it to get a graphical representation of fps required for lets say 200 levels and compare ?

Even though they missed in Beta, at least this time Inno is fixing the issue in less than a month or so. Unlike crystal villa, oracle delphi, rail gun, hover tanks ....which took Inno a lot of time.

 

[qaccy]

Yeah, the one thing I'll agree with as a complaint here is just that it wasn't correct in the first place. The numbers slipped past Inno, and nobody who played on beta seemed to notice (or say) something was off about it either...of course, that's not to say anything would have been changed in time even if it was reported. Crystal Villas were definitely commented on as being unbalanced when they were released on beta, and that still wasn't fixed until after being made available on live servers.

Also, I'll say it 'til I'm blue in the face that Hover Tanks didn't really get nerfed. They got worse against exactly Exoskeleton Soldiers, Plasma Artillery, and Medusa. Units with the Blast ability and bonuses against heavies, so it makes sense there (you also probably weren't using HTs against these units a lot of the time). Against everything else they were either unchanged or actually got better. Including against the Rail Gun, the Power Shot of which was unfortunately never designed to circumvent Force Field which debuted after its release.

 

[DeletedUser25166]

Yeah, the one thing I'll agree with as a complaint here is just that it wasn't correct in the first place. The numbers slipped past Inno, and nobody who played on beta seemed to notice (or say) something was off about it either...of course, that's not to say anything would have been changed in time even if it was reported. Crystal Villas were definitely commented on as being unbalanced when they were released on beta, and that still wasn't fixed until after being made available on live servers.

Also, I'll say it 'til I'm blue in the face that Hover Tanks didn't really get nerfed. They got worse against exactly Exoskeleton Soldiers, Plasma Artillery, and Medusa. Units with the Blast ability and bonuses against heavies, so it makes sense there (you also probably weren't using HTs against these units a lot of the time). Against everything else they were either unchanged or actually got better. Including against the Rail Gun, the Power Shot of which was unfortunately never designed to circumvent Force Field which debuted after its release.

They come out with a new age and nerf something 3 ages earlier? And VF units stink, why not make them better.
But hey you say a nerf actually made it better so....

 

[DeletedUser13838]

Also, I'll say it 'til I'm blue in the face that Hover Tanks didn't really get nerfed. They got worse against exactly Exoskeleton Soldiers, Plasma Artillery, and Medusa. Units with the Blast ability and bonuses against heavies, so it makes sense there (you also probably weren't using HTs against these units a lot of the time). Against everything else they were either unchanged or actually got better. Including against the Rail Gun, the Power Shot of which was unfortunately never designed to circumvent Force Field which debuted after its release.

You can say this until you become purple green or ultraviolet but it's still wrong. They die after 2 hits now instead of 3.

In any event, my problem with the change isn't the fps it's (setting aside the awful QA) the terrible precedent being set. You say this isn't a big deal, so not a game breaking bug. So why make the adjustment? Has something like this been done before? You've also noted this is not the only gb with the wrong numbers for its age yet those haven't been changed. Why single this gb out for special treatment?

As far as beta maybe there'd be more people on beta if inno had a track record of listening to it's beta testers. Fact is they don't and they make these mistakes time and time again. So many of us have little interest in wasting our time there.

 

[DeletedUser25565]

Yeah, the one thing I'll agree with as a complaint here is just that it wasn't correct in the first place. The numbers slipped past Inno, and nobody who played on beta seemed to notice (or say) something was off about it either...of course, that's not to say anything would have been changed in time even if it was reported. Crystal Villas were definitely commented on as being unbalanced when they were released on beta, and that still wasn't fixed until after being made available on live servers.

Also, I'll say it 'til I'm blue in the face that Hover Tanks didn't really get nerfed. They got worse against exactly Exoskeleton Soldiers, Plasma Artillery, and Medusa. Units with the Blast ability and bonuses against heavies, so it makes sense there (you also probably weren't using HTs against these units a lot of the time). Against everything else they were either unchanged or actually got better. Including against the Rail Gun, the Power Shot of which was unfortunately never designed to circumvent Force Field which debuted after its release.

Beta testers have no way of knowing if a building is set to the right number of FPs/rewards per level because Inno doesn't share that information. It was impossible to know if this building was too cheap, just right or too expensive to level. The bigger issue of how the game is beta tested is another topic for discussion.

The only point I tried to make was that IF they are going to make the change, make it apply to everyone so it's fair. Even if that means a level 70 only loses 1 or 2 levels and even if that person will replace them 20 minutes after the change. At least that way everyone ends up with the exact same costs no matter what. This change sets a bad precedent for future screw ups.

 

[DeletedUser31592]

Beta testers have no way of knowing if a building is set to the right number of FPs/rewards per level because Inno doesn't share that information. It was impossible to know if this building was too cheap, just right or too expensive to level. The bigger issue of how the game is beta tested is another topic for discussion.

The only point I tried to make was that IF they are going to make the change, make it apply to everyone so it's fair. Even if that means a level 70 only loses 1 or 2 levels and even if that person will replace them 20 minutes after the change. At least that way everyone ends up with the exact same costs no matter what. This change sets a bad precedent for future screw ups.

Maybe I am smarter than everyone, but I saw this coming a mile away and I really think most people did, too. GBs cost to level goes up in every single era. Why would this new one be different? And they HAD to fix it or otherwise keep all VF buildings with OF FP costs. This was a necessary fix.

Note- I know I am not just smarter, because I'm not even in VF and I knew of this. How did I know? People talking about it. People noticed. They knew it was wrong. And I suspect most knew it would be adjusted.

 

[DeletedUser31498]

The only point I tried to make was that IF they are going to make the change, make it apply to everyone so it's fair. Even if that means a level 70 only loses 1 or 2 levels and even if that person will replace them 20 minutes after the change. At least that way everyone ends up with the exact same costs no matter what. This change sets a bad precedent for future screw ups.

Ok @Thyrgrym the bold you've convinced me. This change ism't fair to those who in the future will be leveling this GB.

I therefore agree with your conclusion that we should take levels away from those who already leveled it. They should have known they were cheating, and this seems to be fair to everyone.

 

[DeletedUser3882]

Ok @Thyrgrym the bold you've convinced me. This change ism't fair to those who in the future will be leveling this GB.

I therefore agree with your conclusion that we should take levels away from those who already leveled it. They should have known they were cheating, and this seems to be fair to everyone.

Hhhhhhhhhhh... I erased and re-erased this multiple times thinking of the best way to respond. Not trolling you @gutmeister but there *CAN’T* be just some blanket statement/resolution like this or we’re delving dangerously close to the whopping fail of the Oracle of Debacle Debacle. No one wants to see that again!

They remove levels, who’s to say they won’t remove the rewards gained on those levels as well? Not only are the power levelers “cheating” but what of those players who snuck in just to acquire prints? Even the low level bldgs out there, prints were acquired somehow. Anyone who has built this building then should have levels/prints/FPs removed? Buildings presently sitting in cities should be deleted?!? With this resolution, we *all* cheated and by all, I mean every stinking person who placed a FP on a Terrorcooter prior to the change going into effect.

It’s not that simple to retroactively change a change and *hopefully* Inno learned from the Oracle. Everyone else needs to remember that unholy mess and be careful what you ask for!

 

[Graviton]

Ok @Thyrgrym the bold you've convinced me. This change ism't fair to those who in the future will be leveling this GB.

I therefore agree with your conclusion that we should take levels away from those who already leveled it. They should have known they were cheating, and this seems to be fair to everyone.

I think they should go farther than that and scrap the TA altogether. Just eliminate it, it was a bad idea. Nobody gets one. That's the only fair thing to do.

 

[DeletedUser3882]

I think they should go farther than that and scrap the TA altogether. Just eliminate it, it was a bad idea. Nobody gets one. That's the only fair thing to do.

That’s kinda my point... It sucks. It really does. They made a clerical error. Stuff happens, but they’ve got to be very careful how they fix it or KABLAMMOOOOO!

We’re all screwed...

Again, sucks, but they’ve made a reasonable decision this go round me thinks to *try* and minimize fallout.

 

[qaccy]

@stallion119 @Konrad the mediocre I said exactly what happened with them. Regarding VF, HTs wouldn't stand a chance against them even in their old form so it seems more like a coincidence that the change came now rather than being because of VF matchups. Have you tried fighting VF units with HTs? I'm guessing neither of you have, or at least haven't tried the other units to find out how much better they are, mainly Ronins. HTs can beat Ronins on paper, but in practice it's likely going to take you no fewer than 8 shots to bring one down and odds are you're facing more than just a single Ronin along with other units you have to deal with. Like Samurai, which go down slightly quicker than Ronins do but absolutely cannot be outrun and even if you were surviving two hits thanks to Armor, would not be killing many of them before you were brought down. Ninjas are pretty safe kills, but Ronins do it better.

Regarding everything else, HTs after the change now take less damage from everything thanks to Force Field except for the units mentioned above. I'll go ahead and list everything out for your convenience, feel free to try to claim HTs are worse off now after I do so:

Units that were never effective or are even worse against Force Field and the defense increase:
-Satellite Spotter (useless/weaker)
-Drone Swarm (weaker)
-Surrogate Soldier (useless/weaker)
-Recon Raider (weaker)
-Dragon Drone (weaker)
-Battle Fortress (weaker)
-Behemoth (useless/weaker)
-Sub Cruiser (weaker)
-Nautilus (weaker)
-Hydroelectric Eel (weaker)
-Gliders (weaker)
-Turturret (useless/weaker)
-Octopod (useless/weaker)

Units that come out ahead compared to Reactive Armor:
-Exoskeleton Soldier (doesn't always, but can now kill in two hits)
-Plasma Artillery (can now kill in two hits)
-Medusa (can now kill in two hits, although easy to attack before other units become a threat)

Somewhere in between the two categories above:
-Manta
-Scimitar
-Crab (technically stronger, but they're easy to kill before being attacked in most situations)
-Rail Gun (still favored, but does not bypass Force Field which presents the possibility of needing 3 shots to kill)
-Hover Tank (essentially trading blows here, though dumb AI tends to put them at a disadvantage and you probably aren't using HTs against HTs)

HTs got worse against 3 units out of 21, and effectively unchanged against the other 18, including in their own age. I personally don't consider it a problem if a unit is weak(er) or a bad choice against units it's supposed to be weak against. A novel concept, I know! Besides, if you were using HTs against Plasmas or Medusas in the first place (they can probably still come out on top against Exos in a lot of situations), you'd probably be better off experimenting a bit more with the other units as there are better options, even when it comes to jamming a square peg into a round hole as people often like to do when battling.

I'm looking forward to any more weak arguments in response to this overly long, off-topic post.

 

[DeletedUser31498]

Hhhhhhhhhhh... I erased and re-erased this multiple times thinking of the best way to respond. Not trolling you @gutmeister but there *CAN’T* be just some blanket statement/resolution like this or we’re delving dangerously close to the whopping fail of the Oracle of Debacle Debacle. No one wants to see that again!

They remove levels, who’s to say they won’t remove the rewards gained on those levels as well? Not only are the power levelers “cheating” but what of those players who snuck in just to acquire prints? Even the low level bldgs out there, prints were acquired somehow. Anyone who has built this building then should have levels/prints/FPs removed? Buildings presently sitting in cities should be deleted?!? With this resolution, we *all* cheated and by all, I mean every stinking person who placed a FP on a Terrorcooter prior to the change going into effect.

It’s not that simple to retroactively change a change and *hopefully* Inno learned from the Oracle. Everyone else needs to remember that unholy mess and be careful what you ask for!

umm, are you serious? I was so obviously sarcastic...

 

[K--O]

Way to go INNO. You made a mistake on the FPs to level the TA. But instead of leaving it alone so that it would fair to all players you significantly bumped up the FPs to level it after all the people who got in early already pushed theirs up at a discount. So now anyone leveling their TA has been disadvantaged when compared to everyone who already leveled it. Biggest blunder on your part since the Oracle debacle. Put it back quickly in the name of fairness.

 

[Agent327]

@stallion119 @Konrad the mediocre I said exactly what happened with them. Regarding VF, HTs wouldn't stand a chance against them even in their old form so it seems more like a coincidence that the change came now rather than being because of VF matchups. Have you tried fighting VF units with HTs? I'm guessing neither of you have, or at least haven't tried the other units to find out how much better they are, mainly Ronins. HTs can beat Ronins on paper, but in practice it's likely going to take you no fewer than 8 shots to bring one down and odds are you're facing more than just a single Ronin along with other units you have to deal with. Like Samurai, which go down slightly quicker than Ronins do but absolutely cannot be outrun and even if you were surviving two hits thanks to Armor, would not be killing many of them before you were brought down. Ninjas are pretty safe kills, but Ronins do it better.

It really depends on the attack/defense bonus. I can still go very far in GE against VF units, including Ronins. They take more shots, but you can stay out of their way and they can not shoot you that easy. Ninja's are an easy pray and the same goes for Samurai. HT's do still most of the work in 4 levels GE. Sometimes you need to switch. Faced with a lot of Ronins you can use Turtles.

Regarding everything else, HTs after the change now take less damage from everything thanks to Force Field except for the units mentioned above. I'll go ahead and list everything out for your convenience, feel free to try to claim HTs are worse off now after I do so:

Units that were never effective or are even worse against Force Field and the defense increase:
-Satellite Spotter (useless/weaker)
-Drone Swarm (weaker)
-Surrogate Soldier (useless/weaker)
-Recon Raider (weaker)
-Dragon Drone (weaker)
-Battle Fortress (weaker)
-Behemoth (useless/weaker)
-Sub Cruiser (weaker)
-Nautilus (weaker)
-Hydroelectric Eel (weaker)
-Gliders (weaker)
-Turturret (useless/weaker)
-Octopod (useless/weaker)

Units that come out ahead compared to Reactive Armor:
-Exoskeleton Soldier (doesn't always, but can now kill in two hits)
-Plasma Artillery (can now kill in two hits)
-Medusa (can now kill in two hits, although easy to attack before other units become a threat)

Somewhere in between the two categories above:
-Manta
-Scimitar
-Crab (technically stronger, but they're easy to kill before being attacked in most situations)
-Rail Gun (still favored, but does not bypass Force Field which presents the possibility of needing 3 shots to kill)
-Hover Tank (essentially trading blows here, though dumb AI tends to put them at a disadvantage and you probably aren't using HTs against HTs)

HTs got worse against 3 units out of 21, and effectively unchanged against the other 18, including in their own age. I personally don't consider it a problem if a unit is weak(er) or a bad choice against units it's supposed to be weak against. A novel concept, I know! Besides, if you were using HTs against Plasmas or Medusas in the first place (they can probably still come out on top against Exos in a lot of situations), you'd probably be better off experimenting a bit more with the other units as there are better options, even when it comes to jamming a square peg into a round hole as people often like to do when battling.

I'm looking forward to any more weak arguments in response to this overly long, off-topic post.

You are 100% right here. Everybody keeps going on how it took 3 shots to take out a HT, but that was always three and never more. With Force Field and a heavy defense they are sometimes harder to take out.

 

[DeletedUser3882]

umm, are you serious? I was so obviously sarcastic...

My apologies.. No, I didn’t notice... When one stirs the pot, my suggestion is to do it sloooooooowly, always in a counter-clockwise motion.
That way, the sarcasm comes out thick, and a little chewy.... Snarky and pungent enough to singe a nose hair or few

 

[K--O]

Thyrgrym. You say 6,700 FPs is a big difference. Do you know the total FP reguirements before and after? That might help you realize you're wrong.

Yes, I do gutmeister. The total to get to level 70 before this change was 167,405. 4% of that (number published by Inno) is 6,696. That's hugely unfair to us that have yet to push ours up.

And to those that think those who haven't won't or will do slowly you're wrong, some of us were just waiting to amass some BPs or working on CFs and such before focusing on that GB for 60+ levels.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

Maybe I am smarter than everyone, but I saw this coming a mile away and I really think most people did, too. GBs cost to level goes up in every single era.

Oh my the arrogance lol. Let's humble ya. See PME and CE, yep, does not go up every age so I guess not so much smarter than everyone ay I don't have a problem with games changing, that's the nature of them. What I have a problem with is them not recognizing the underlying Beta issues and the inconsistencies in their design. I also think people have a right to get upset and express that though at the same time if they're like me and don't pay 2 play than what really is there to complain about lol. But once people do start paying than expectations go up even though the element of change remains a constant. It's easy to recognize some players got a benefit while others will not, that's often the nature of nerfs though but that's essentially a nerf, IG classified this as a bug, which now put them in a position of being able to take action against those who took advantage of the bug. So it seems anyone saying this is fine should also be fine with IG taking ill gotten gains away.

I can't find anything that explains how much by age GB's ought to go up. I don't think IG knows either which is part of the problem. As I said earlier, and on Beta, PME and CE do not go up and AF goes up too much, depending on how one looks at it, so why are they not going back and fixing those 3 ages now? They clearly have no problem going back on years old design and adjusting it, see Hover Tanks, Rail Guns etc. So why not on this issue of GB fp amounts?

There's a few ways of looking at this, here's a couple ways. The total fp's for levels 1-10 from BA to IA go up 8.8%, then up until PME, while there is an increase, the increase gets less and less for each age;

Spoiler: Chart

The two VF's are pre and post change.

As you can see though there's no real consistent numerical value to it and of course it gets completely broken PME on up.

You can also look at it by how many fp's total 1-10 in difference between each age;

Spoiler: Chart

Up until PME it went up an average of 226 fp's per age, again no consistent numerical value but let's use that average and apply it from PME on up. Looking at it this way reveals that actually VF and AF are currently at close to those same values as though they were going up by that approximate amount leaving only PME and CE to account for;

Spoiler: Chart

 

[qaccy]

It really depends on the attack/defense bonus. I can still go very far in GE against VF units, including Ronins. They take more shots, but you can stay out of their way and they can not shoot you that easy. Ninja's are an easy pray and the same goes for Samurai. HT's do still most of the work in 4 levels GE. Sometimes you need to switch. Faced with a lot of Ronins you can use Turtles.

You could, but I'm proposing that Ronins are capable of wholly replacing HTs in just about every situation and getting generally comparable, or at least faster results. Much higher stats, meaning a gap that grows progressively larger the higher your boost level is; not having to worry about terrain, making them safer to auto-battle with; and related to the higher stats, their defense is so stupidly impervious that I don't even feel the loss of stealth by using them while enjoying that vastly increased power that can still two-shot OF artillery and light units despite the type disadvantage. Indeed, I auto-battled my way all the way up to GE4 this week using nothing but Ronins, excluding battles featuring all heavy, light and/or artillery units where I went with Turtles instead. My average units lost per battle was 0.375. So yeah, while HTs may still be usable, given the almost nonexistent losses with Ronins I'd rather use them for the reasons given above (mainly the allowance for auto-battling).

@sloppyjoeslayer I'm not sure if your post could be summed up as such, but essentially everything in between ME and AF is imbalanced. PME and CE don't increase, while TE and FE are too low as they start increasing based on the imbalanced PME and CE values. It's not that AF went up by too much compared to FE, it's just that somehow they remembered the cost curve at that point and gave AF proper FP costs from the start. Why they never went back and adjusted the costs for the other ages, especially now that they've demonstrated that they're willing to do so for new ages if they happen to slip up, is unknown. Perhaps they considered it but decided against it due to how long they've been available, despite other instances of rebalancing months or years after the fact? Perhaps the reason they did so here is because it's still pretty recent, making it less disruptive to fix it? In any case, those four ages are prominent examples of the imbalancing that Inno decided to fix here with the TA and only they know why it's seemingly going to remain that way.

EDIT: Also, it seems to not be mentioned in the changelog, but I just noticed that resource 'packages' now tell you exactly how much you get from them with that terminology being wholly removed in applicable areas, which seems to be Daily Challenges and Guild Expeditions (the latter of which you had no idea what the value was unless you won it). While not a huge change, I appreciate the additional clarity!

 

[DeletedUser29726]

You could, but I'm proposing that Ronins are capable of wholly replacing HTs in just about every situation and getting generally comparable, or at least faster results. Much higher stats, meaning a gap that grows progressively larger the higher your boost level is; not having to worry about terrain, making them safer to auto-battle with; and related to the higher stats, their defense is so stupidly impervious that I don't even feel the loss of stealth by using them while enjoying that vastly increased power that can still two-shot OF artillery and light units despite the type disadvantage. Indeed, I auto-battled my way all the way up to GE4 this week using nothing but Ronins, excluding battles featuring all heavy, light and/or artillery units where I went with Turtles instead. My average units lost per battle was 0.375. So yeah, while HTs may still be usable, given the almost nonexistent losses with Ronins I'd rather use them for the reasons given above (mainly the allowance for auto-battling)

Ronin Bots are certainly a decent unit. Part of them standing out so much though is that ninjas and samurais are such terrible units - the only way a samurai becomes a threat is if there's a lot of samurai - and even then it's not a threat to win, just a threat to make things bloody so you can't handle 2 waves. And Ronin are supposed to be strong vs ninjas... So no surprise there how that matchup goes down.

The issues with Ronins vs everything is Turturrets and other Ronin - turtles may only hit side targets for 1, but they hit a lot of ronins for 1 at once on top of a 3-5 hit to the main target - it's a lot of damage to soak. You mentioned using turturrets in those situations but that's where i find continuing to go back to Hovers works out simpler.

At any rate, Ronin are the heavy we needed after an age where heavies were nothing but a bad joke. It's just unfortunate that one of the first two counters that are supposed to exist for them are as much of a joke as Samurai are. And the other unit that exists for the age is a paratrooper clone - a unit that was exceptionally niche and hard to use the first time we got it (recycling maps til you get enough forests in the right spot, can only use as 8 of a kind or in combination with artillery, relies on being able to hit from outside the range of some units which isn't as viable this time around due to speedier units)