When can we stop pretending GBG is balanced?

[Taipanium]

Here is another possibly useful metric. The entire map with all 52 tiles together generates roughly 700k victory points over the duration of a 11 day GBG season. In my current GBG instance, we are on the last day, the top 2 guilds (the farmers) have accumulated about 600k victory points. The #2 guild is at 275k points and the #3 guild is at 14k point.
So say 85% of total map output going to 1 team. That is how lopsided things get at the 1000 LP diamond league level. Now you cant tell me that this matchmaking system is still fair and balanced.

 

[Emberguard]

Just regarding this one statement: you are assuming that GBG success actually factors in, in some significant way, into server rankings / prestige. it does not. You get a one day bump on the day GBG closes, and the rest of the days are as always, prestige is largely driven by the amount of GVG lands held.

I wasn’t talking about prestige.

The argument I was replying to was stating being a top guild for years equated to strength. For years being a top guild meant only competing with 5% of the playerbase. So it’s a greatly biased result that won’t actually tell you if they’re one of the strongest outside of that 5% (95% were eliminated from the competition by default, not skill or capability).

For the context of what I was replying to, yes GBG success absolutely factors in. Because this isn’t GvG. This is the other 95% they’re fighting against.

 

[Thanksfortheloot]

So been reading this for last couple of days, I'm the founder of one of the guilds @taipancur screenshotted this season.

on B I would say there is only 5 guilds who are able to prime tier 1 2 and 3 in a timely manner, so the map can be flipped 5 times a day.

on B there's also 50 or more Diamond guilds, so the chances of 2 of those 5 guilds being in the same league are pretty slim, this is before any guild politics are involved and with B world there is alot of politics involved when it comes to those 5 guilds. take example my guild, we are at war with 2 of the 5 guilds.

Personally the guilds that ended up with us this season got unlucky, but this season isn't the norm, most seasons you are stuck with a way weaker guild who struggle to prime tier 1 and 2, never mind tier 3/4.

 

[Taipanium]

I wasn’t talking about prestige.

The argument I was replying to was stating being a top guild for years equated to strength. For years being a top guild meant only competing with 5% of the playerbase. So it’s a greatly biased result that won’t actually tell you if they’re one of the strongest outside of that 5% (95% were eliminated from the competition by default, not skill or capability).

For the context of what I was replying to, yes GBG success absolutely factors in. Because this isn’t GvG. This is the other 95% they’re fighting against.

Okay, thank you for that clarification. I see your point, the mobile-only players were not included in GVG, and are in GBG, so now that would mean the 'true' test of strength for any guild who previously relied on GVG results only. Fair enough.

The guild I speak of (no need for names I guess) is still a very strong guild, also in GBG. They are at the top of diamond and (in my opinion) can take on any of the top 5 guilds (alluded to in a post above mine) head to head and that would be a hell of an interesting fight. But it never seems to take place. Now don't get me wrong, I am no fan of that guild at all as we fight them daily in GVG - but the point is, they get locked down in GBG because of politics (there are many more strong guilds against them than with them). I just use this to illustrate my point - even such guilds that have what it takes (many fighters, strong players, leadership, resources, coordination, etc.) - stand no chance against a strong 2-guild GBG alliance.

Therefore, there is something broken with the way GBG matchmaking is done. The alliance factor sucks all the fighters on the server into 5-6 guilds where they can farm. (To what end I don't understand...to add a 111th level on an Arc?). Anyway, the solution seems obvious to me - place those 5-6 guilds in a league of their own. Diamond-plus or such. Within minutes that would revert back to the King of the Hill style battles that I think GBG was designed for, and it would let the other 45 guilds at the top of Diamond actually enjoy the game.

 

[Algona]

50 or more Diamond guilds, so the chances of 2 of those 5 guilds being in the same league are pretty slim,

It's better then 50% that 2 of the top 5 Guilds will share a League.

If the first four are spread out over four separate Leagues, the last one has only 3/7 chance to be in a League without one of the first four.

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As far as the rest of your post, sure, 5 Guilds dominate GBG now in your world. Things can and will change. Players get stronger, shift Guilds, alliances and enemies shift.

GBG is 14 months old.

A lot of players and Guilds took some time or are still figuring out that GBG is a treasure house and how to take advantage of it.

While the top players have huge leads and will maintain, even extend those leads, the percentage of that lead (thing second differential) is shrinking.

The Guilds who want to get better at GBG are looking for and training more good growing players and working on expanding their Guild Treasuries.

Those were slow processes in 2019; with GBG not so much anymore.

Assuming no major cahnges to GBG or new aspects added to the game of similar effect on the game as GBG, I'd expect a slow increase of the number of 'tier 1' Guilds on every world.

So while you may not always have partners to dance with now, give it time, you will.

Or, oh, I dunno. Work with some of the weaker Guilds to help them get better so that when you face your enemies over the coming months you have more friends and allies to count on?

Ridiculous? Yeah. While you may think grooming potential new dance partners is silly, you can bet others don't see it that way.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

Assuming no major cahnges to GBG or new aspects added to the game of similar effect on the game as GBG, I'd expect a slow increase of the number of 'tier 1' Guilds on every world.

Very, very, very slowly. The numbers must be just right for the number of diamond guilds to increase appricably.

Therefore, there is something broken with the way GBG matchmaking is done. The alliance factor sucks all the fighters on the server into 5-6 guilds where they can farm. (To what end I don't understand...to add a 111th level on an Arc?). Anyway, the solution seems obvious to me - place those 5-6 guilds in a league of their own. Diamond-plus or such. Within minutes that would revert back to the King of the Hill style battles that I think GBG was designed for, and it would let the other 45 guilds at the top of Diamond actually enjoy the game.

These are two disconnected issues. Matchmaking has nothing to alliances.
If the issue is alliances (which it is an issue), then the creation of alliances needs to be addressed. They are an issue, and they need to be prevented (or made so difficult to utilize they are rarely done)
If the issue is matchmaking, then league advancement needs to be addressed. This is also an issue. Guilds are in leagues where they cannot effectively compete (alliances aside).
A solution cannot be made for just the one specific situation you describe. The solution must be applied the same everywhere (all worlds, all guilds) as this game is, at its core, a program. Therefore any solution must be reviewed and applied based on that fact. Your suggestion is to move those 5-6 guilds to a 'titanium' league, but how do you programmatically determine which guilds should be in that league and how does that effect the other worlds? In short, all you have done is created another league. That does not prevent other guilds from progressing into 'titanium' league and starting the problem over. Unfortunately, your "solution" only covers a symptom it does not address the problem. The root of the problem is that guilds were advanced to diamond league to compete against these 5-6 guilds before they were ready. The question is how to solve that problem. Solve that problem and we can close this thread.

 

[Taipanium]

A solution cannot be made for just the one specific situation you describe. The solution must be applied the same everywhere (all worlds, all guilds) as this game is, at its core, a program. Therefore any solution must be reviewed and applied based on that fact. Your suggestion is to move those 5-6 guilds to a 'titanium' league, but how do you programmatically determine which guilds should be in that league and how does that effect the other worlds? In short, all you have done is created another league. That does not prevent other guilds from progressing into 'titanium' league and starting the problem over. Unfortunately, your "solution" only covers a symptom it does not address the problem. The root of the problem is that guilds were advanced to diamond league to compete against these 5-6 guilds before they were ready. The question is how to solve that problem. Solve that problem and we can close this thread.

Okay let me refine the solution: You create a 'titanium' league on all servers, with a *maximum* size of 8 guilds.
The goal is to cluster guilds of comparable strengths and capabilities. Which was the original thinking behind leagues, but it broke down by inflation at the 1000 LP level and by the magnetic effect of GBG fighters being drawn to the few top guilds who usually ally together to farm (and exclude the rest as a side-effect).

 

[Algona]

The numbers must be just right for the number of diamond guilds to increase appricably.

Mu apologies. My mistake for using undefined terminology. I'm not talking about the number of Diamond Guilds.

By 'tier 1' I meant what you refer to as " these 5-6 guilds " and Thanksfortheloot as top 4 Guilds.

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The goal is to cluster guilds of comparable strengths and capabilities.

A computer needs objective criteria.
What do you propose as those criteria?

You create a 'titanium' league on all servers, with a *maximum* size of 8 guilds.

Almost every poster complaining in this and every other thread about GBG is upset because they aren't getting enough personal Rewards.

How does forming another Division give those Guilds moved into that division more Rewards?

Looks like your idea is a way to punish those Guilds while getting more Rewards for Guilds that can't get them now.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

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[Pumbaa the Great]

Without looking back over 409 posts, has anyone maybe suggest that instead of using the LP to form the leagues they use the VP from the last session (rack and stack them)? If a tie they use the session before that one.

In order to reset the leagues we have 2 free for all sessions to set the order. That would almost eliminate the alliances and go to every guild for itself. Plus that would put the top 8 guilds on a map (next 8, and so on) without a low league guild seating in their base not being able to get started.


(And now comes the this won't work comments, because of so and so) But bring it.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

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[Graviton]

Without looking back over 409 posts ...

(And now comes the this won't work comments, because of so and so) But bring it.

The arguments against all of these ideas are peppered throughout the thread. You'll have to read it if you want to find the "this won't work" comments. The arguments have all been made already.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

Okay let me refine the solution: You create a 'titanium' league on all servers, with a *maximum* size of 8 guilds.

That assumes there are less than 8 guilds on all servers that fit in the criteria of your 5-6 guilds in your exemplar. Creating a new league does not solve the problem, it just moves the problem. As you have said (repeatedly) the problem is the groupings. You need to figure solutions that address how the groups are made. Not make new groups that will have the same problem.

 

[*Bogey*]

How about instead of whining about top guilds and neutering them, you find a way to elevate your guild to be competitive to a point where one of the 1%ers (so to speak) will want, and have an effective partnership with you? Problem solved.

 

[Tony 85 the Generous]

How about instead of whining about top guilds and neutering them, you find a way to elevate your guild to be competitive to a point where one of the 1%ers (so to speak) will want, and have an effective partnership with you? Problem solved.

Elevating is not the issue. Catching is the issue. Closing the gap to compete with them is the issue. How do you propose to elevate your guild faster than the 1%ers are elevating their guild? That still leaves the problem of "lesser" guilds being asked to compete with the 1%ers.

 

[obytt]

Well, heres hoping that that Inno will fix it someday. LoL I would just like see it fair! Guilds with 10 to 20 players or less, fight against Guilds with 50 to 80 players. That is B.S. TY!!

 

[Algona]

Well, heres hoping that that Inno will fix it someday. LoL I would just like see it fair! Guilds with 10 to 20 players or less, fight against Guilds with 50 to 80 players. That is B.S. TY!!

Imagine how 3 player Guilds feel when they face your 19 players.

Ain't just the size of the dog in the fight, GBG is also about the size of the fight in the dog.

Your complaint was brought up constantly when GBG first came out. The solution is simple:

Grow your Guild.

Your Guild Leadership has chosen not to grow. That's not a problem with GBG, that's a choice of your Guild Leadership.

 

[GaKOAK]

I agree with what others have said ... grow your guild and be more competitive instead of the constant bitching about how others are better or bigger or stronger than you.

Your leaders won't do what is needed to grow? Find a better guild, there are plenty of them out there.

Instead of trying to neuter others, get better yourself.

 

[Taipanium]

Your leaders won't do what is needed to grow? Find a better guild, there are plenty of them out there.

Instead of trying to neuter others, get better yourself.

For anything below diamond league, I agree with this philosophy. However not for the top end of Diamond. There we see a different phenomenon: medium sized guilds (say 50-60 members) loosing their best fighters to the 5-6 top guilds because they rather join the farmfest in stead of being excluded and locked down for a few seasons in a row. The server distribution gets very top heavy, which is why I suggested the 8 guilds-only titanium league. The size limit is key there, else its just a temporary displacement of the same problem.
However I saw some interesting suggestions earlier in tis thread today, will try to get back to those when I have time to write more.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

The whole problem is that despite the fact that many players claim this is a war game, it is really a farming game. But that is a player choice. Pretty much any feature the developers bring out gets turned into as much of a farming opportunity as players can make it. GvG was dying because of farming. It's now probably pretty much dead (except, of course, for the diehards) because the only thing you can really farm there are PvP Tower points and guild/personal ranking. Neither of those is worth anything to your city. They are at best bragging points, but very few players care about the PvP Towers or guild/personal ranking. GBG has become the farmfest that it is instead of a real guild versus guild battleground for the simple fact that it can be farmed for tangible personal rewards that directly benefit your city. And the only ways to stop the top guilds from treating GBG as merely a farm, is to nerf the personal rewards available or nerf the sector buildings that totally negate attrition. As long as the personal rewards are high and attrition can be mitigated or eliminated, top guilds will find a way to farm it. Period.