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[Guide] Obsolote - Analyzing the value of ToR

DeletedUser27184

Update (5/7/17)
---------------------
GE changed - the rewards and their chances changed. So an update for the Guide was needed.
As I got more experienced with the ToR I was able to articulate better questions for the guide.
So an updated and more coherent Guide can be found at: https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/the-tor-guide-2-0.18638/

Forum moderator - any chance to pass this guide to the Guide Great Graveyard (GGG!)?


Hello everyone,
Hope you enjoy and use the Guide presented.
I am sorry for any English mistakes I did while writing here. English is a foreign language for me.
Jobu

TLDR
1. The building is worth for a GE player if he do more then any of the following combination:
* 12 events per GE, ToR must be level 20 or more
* 14 events per GE, ToR must be level 14 or more
* 16 events per GE, ToR must be level 9 or more
* 18 events per GE, ToR must be level 5 or more
* 20 events per GE, ToR must be level 2 or more
* 22 events per GE, ToR can stay level 1
Note: the building "worth" is valued in tile size versus other buildings(including GB's).
2. Advancing and getting 1 event extra is worth more then leveling the building 1 level. At most stages 1 event > 2 level of ToR.

Type of player versus this building.

1. As the reward includes rogues and watchfire this building will fit the PvP player a bit more, but even the most docile farmer will like 100FP or SoK.

2. The earlier you build the building, the better.
a. The rewards includes such items as SoK that are more useful the longer (and earlier) they are build.
b. Some of the reward have more impact the earlier in ages they come. For example FP points. For the Iron age player 100FP have more impact (4 days worth of FP) versus the Future age (2 days worth of FP).


Assumptions for analyzing the building values

Since the building gives a chance for the relic to appear, all the calculation must use a long term condition, that will allow the statistics to kick in (one week with no relics does not mean the building is useless).

Here is a list of assumptions for this calculation. Like any assumption they can be argued over. I hope they are reasonable enough:

1. We will compute the statistics over a week.

2. In this guide I will calculate the values per HMA only.
a. For each age the numbers will change a bit. Trying to add this variance into the general math here, seems a bit crowded.
b. HMA is an early age to get the ToR, and presumably get a good value out of it.​

3. The amount of events the player manages to finish is critical. So I will use the 12/24/36/48 events options, as to accommodate different levels of players who finish more or less of the GE.

4. For the chances values I used the numbers given in http://foeplayer.com/en/templeofrelics/

Amount of relics per week, per level

Here follows a table who shows how many relics of any type will be found over 48 events:


Level Req. Relic chance The amounts statistically received each week:
GrB Forge All common Uncommon Rare
1 50 12.00% 25.50% 1.00% 5.76 4.23 1.47 0.06
2 70 12.50% 25.75% 1.50% 6.00 4.37 1.55 0.09
3 130 13.00% 26.00% 2.00% 6.24 4.49 1.62 0.12
4 200 13.50% 25.25% 2.50% 6.48 4.68 1.64 0.16
5 270 14.00% 25.50% 3.00% 6.72 4.80 1.71 0.20
6 330 14.50% 25.75% 3.50% 6.96 4.92 1.79 0.24
7 420 14.75% 26.00% 4.00% 7.08 4.96 1.84 0.28
8 490 15.25% 26.25% 4.50% 7.32 5.07 1.92 0.33
9 570 15.75% 26.50% 5.00% 7.56 5.18 2.00 0.38
10 650 16.25% 26.75% 5.50% 7.80 5.28 2.09 0.43
11 667 16.75% 26.94% 5.88% 8.04 5.40 2.17 0.47
12 683 17.00% 26.05% 6.09% 8.16 5.54 2.13 0.50
13 700 17.50% 26.15% 6.30% 8.40 5.67 2.20 0.53
14 718 18.00% 26.26% 6.51% 8.64 5.81 2.27 0.56
15 736 18.25% 26.36% 6.72% 8.76 5.86 2.31 0.59
16 754 18.75% 26.47% 6.93% 9.00 5.99 2.38 0.62
17 773 19.25% 26.57% 7.14% 9.24 6.13 2.46 0.66
18 792 19.50% 26.67% 7.34% 9.36 6.18 2.50 0.69
19 812 20.00% 26.78% 7.55% 9.60 6.30 2.57 0.72
20 833 20.25% 26.88% 7.75% 9.72 6.35 2.61 0.75
21 853 20.75% 26.98% 7.95% 9.96 6.48 2.69 0.79
22 875 21.00% 27.08% 8.16% 10.08 6.53 2.73 0.82
23 897 21.50% 27.18% 8.36% 10.32 6.65 2.80 0.86
24 919 21.75% 27.28% 8.56% 10.44 6.70 2.85 0.89
25 942 22.25% 27.38% 8.76% 10.68 6.82 2.92 0.94


Value of GB through the number of tiles.

There are many ways to value a building. Like in many other guides I will stick and try to analyze the value of the building by the common denominator of a Space Tile.

In Appendix A I will give the details of how I found the values for each type of relic.


A common relic is worth 6.1 tiles.

An uncommon relic is worth 38.6 tiles.

Enter this into the table above, and add 12/24/36/48 events done by the player, and you get:

Where, first row is level,
2nd row is: If a player finish 12 events, how many rewards he will get in TILE spaces.
3rd row: Same as above, with 24 events finished.
4th row: Same with 36 events.
5th row: Same with 48 events.

tldr: Depending on the level of the ToR(first row), and how many Events (first line), you will get a value. This value is how much tiles the rewards are worth. The more the better. Note that the building itself is 36 size. So you start to statistically profit when the result is higher then 36.
12 24 36 48
1.0 20.7 41.4 62.2 82.9
2.0 21.7 43.4 65.1 86.8
3.0 22.7 45.4 68.1 90.8
4.0 23.2 46.4 69.5 92.7
5.0 24.2 48.3 72.5 96.7
6.0 25.2 50.4 75.5 100.7
7.0 25.8 51.5 77.3 103.0
8.0 26.8 53.6 80.3 107.1
9.0 27.8 55.6 83.4 111.2
10.0 28.8 57.7 86.5 115.4
11.0 29.9 59.7 89.6 119.4
12.0 29.7 59.4 89.1 118.9
13.0 30.7 61.3 92.0 122.6
14.0 31.6 63.2 94.8 126.4
15.0 32.1 64.2 96.4 128.5
16.0 33.1 66.2 99.2 132.3
17.0 34.0 68.1 102.1 136.2
18.0 34.6 69.1 103.7 138.2
19.0 35.5 71.1 106.6 142.1
20.0 36.1 72.1 108.2 144.2
21.0 37.0 74.0 111.1 148.1
22.0 37.6 75.1 112.7 150.2
23.0 38.5 77.1 115.6 154.1
24.0 39.1 78.1 117.2 156.2
25.0 40.0 80.1 120.1 160.2

Breaking point for the building
So, when is the building worth its size?

The following table shows the predicted amount of rewards, converted into size value for a combination of: number of events, ToR level.

Once you passed the 36 size of the ToR building, you returned your investment in the building.

First row is the ToR level.
2nd row and onward - at the top is the number of events.
- within the table, each cell show the sum total of rewards the building gave in tiles.

12.0 14.0 16.0 18.0 20.0 22.0 24.0 26.0
-----------------------------------------------------
1.0 20.7 24.2 27.6 31.1 34.5 38.0 41.4 44.9
2.0 21.7 25.3 28.9 32.6 36.2 39.8 43.4 47.0
3.0 22.7 26.5 30.3 34.0 37.8 41.6 45.4 49.2
4.0 23.2 27.0 30.9 34.8 38.6 42.5 46.4 50.2
5.0 24.2 28.2 32.2 36.3 40.3 44.3 48.3 52.4
6.0 25.2 29.4 33.6 37.8 42.0 46.2 50.4 54.5
7.0 25.8 30.0 34.3 38.6 42.9 47.2 51.5 55.8
8.0 26.8 31.2 35.7 40.2 44.6 49.1 53.6 58.0
9.0 27.8 32.4 37.1 41.7 46.3 51.0 55.6 60.2
10.0 28.8 33.7 38.5 43.3 48.1 52.9 57.7 62.5
11.0 29.9 34.8 39.8 44.8 49.8 54.7 59.7 64.7
12.0 29.7 34.7 39.6 44.6 49.5 54.5 59.4 64.4
13.0 30.7 35.8 40.9 46.0 51.1 56.2 61.3 66.4
14.0 31.6 36.9 42.1 47.4 52.7 58.0 63.2 68.5
15.0 32.1 37.5 42.8 48.2 53.5 58.9 64.2 69.6
16.0 33.1 38.6 44.1 49.6 55.1 60.6 66.2 71.7
17.0 34.0 39.7 45.4 51.1 56.7 62.4 68.1 73.7
18.0 34.6 40.3 46.1 51.8 57.6 63.4 69.1 74.9
19.0 35.5 41.4 47.4 53.3 59.2 65.1 71.1 77.0
20.0 36.1 42.1 48.1 54.1 60.1 66.1 72.1 78.1
21.0 37.0 43.2 49.4 55.5 61.7 67.9 74.0 80.2
22.0 37.6 43.8 50.1 56.3 62.6 68.8 75.1 81.4
23.0 38.5 44.9 51.4 57.8 64.2 70.6 77.1 83.5
24.0 39.1 45.6 52.1 58.6 65.1 71.6 78.1 84.6
25.0 40.0 46.7 53.4 60.1 66.7 73.4 80.1 86.8

I bolded the first value, greater then 36 in each row. If you pull more events or levels from this point, your building will be worth its weight. Theoretically :)

Also worth noting that if you follow the values given, the reward value is greater if you do one more event, then if you level the ToR one level. In most cases adding 1 more event will compare you to a ~2 levels higher building.

The ToR worth calculator
I added the excel sheet I used to calculate all the above.

How to use:
Open the excel. On the right side there is a place where you can put your own preferences about how much each reward is worth.
Based on this values, the table on the right will show you for each event/level the result value. The red area in the table shows the breaking point where the building is worth to you more then it cost.

Sharable link to the file: https://we.tl/w4iGo7357O

Is there a way to add a file here? this shared line will work for just a few days...

Appendix A – how to value in Tiles the different relics.



1. The relics reward include some rewards that are easily calculated, and some who don’t.

2. I tried to find the most efficient way to produce each reward. If someone know a better way please leave a comment about it and I will update it.

3. And in some cases I got stuck and gave a thumb up value.

Reward options valued by Tile Spaces:

Goods –

As per the local guide https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com...quired-to-run-1-current-goods-building.13276/

HMA good production will need 39 tiles to produce 210 goods per week (max efficiency).

So 1 good is equal 0.185 tiles.

Forge Points –

There are many and varied ways to create FP in the game. In most cases, like in the SoK, they building create two different products (gold and FP).

As the Cape is purely FP oriented building, it should be easier to calculate the FP per Tile. I took for the calculation a level 10 GB as this more the over the ability of the average HMA player.

So, 10 FP for a 20 tiles building.

Or, 1 FP equals 2 tiles.

But, as the cape is not universally accepted as the best building, I will cut the tiles expanses by half to make it more appealing.

1 FP equal 1 tile.

Units

A standard building will house 4 units (no diamonds involved in the calculations here).

Average of HMA military building population size is: 441.6

Which means you will need 2.83 town houses, and for the happiness you will need 0.84 churches. Which comes down to 18.88 spaces.

Average of HMA military building tile size is: 9.6 tiles.

So for maximum of 4 units a day, you pay up with 28.48 tiles.

So, over a week its maximum of 28 units. With the final result

1 unit equals 1 tile.

Note- rogues units are a bit higher price, as the 6 size rogue building allow for 2 rogues (no diamonds) which comes to 1 rogue equals 3 tiles.

Decoration

The best happiness building (non diamond) for players is the churce with 9 tiles and 520 happiness.

So a tile is worthy 57.7 happiness.

If we check the diamond decoration we get, it’s a gargoyle. Size 1 for 73 happiness. This means that:

1 decoration worth 1.26 tiles.

Medals

The victory tower gives 13 medals a day in HMA.

1 medal equal 1/13 tiles.

Watch fire

The following calculation is not very mathematic. But it’s the best I found so far.

The problem is that we try to find how much space a player is willing to pay in order to get a watchfire. The value will change according to how much pvp the player will play, his neighborhood attack and so on.

The issue is further complicated by the fact that the ToR will continue to pop new relics, while the player will stick the watchfire (and lose 1 tile for it) in his city.

For the calculation of this part I will look at the Statue of Zeus. It’s a 6 size building, which you can level to get to higher percentage of defense.

So the ToR function a bit like Zeus. Instead of leveling it by putting FP inside, you get it by chance (equal the leveling) and you pay up 1 tile size for each level of the building. (Note that attack grow in levels by 3 percent, while the watch fire each give 4 points of defense)

With the above argument, the ability to receive watchfires worth 6 tiles.

1 watchfire worth 6 tiles.



Blue prints

Even a harder a problem then the watchfire. How do you decide how much space is worth to get a blue print? Especially as the blue print are random. We know that a specific blue print is worth 200 diamonds. But how much for a random one?

I think most people wont pay up for random blue prints. So I will set the price size tile to zero.

1 blue print worth 0 tiles.



Common Reward size tile average

In the common reward we have:

– 25 goods (one type) -> 4.625 worth of tiles.
– 20 FP (to bar) -> 20 worth of tiles.
– 5 units from the players Age/Era -> 5 tiles.
– 2 random blueprints -> 0 tiles.
– Decoration avilable for diamonds->1.26 tiles

Lets convert them to size tiles

Assumption – the chance for each reward is the same. NEED CONFIRMATION on this issue, or better data mining.

On average, each reward will be equal to 6.1 size tiles.



Uncommon Reward size tile average

– 200 goods (one type) = 37 tiles.
– Watchfire = 6 tiles
– 100 FP (to bar) = 100 tiles
– 10 Rogues = 30 tiles.
– Medals (the amount depends on the player age/era) 260 medals in HMA = 20 tiles

(need confirmation for the medal amount).

Under the same assumption for above, for equal chance of each uncommon reward, we get-

On average, each uncommon reward will be equal to 38.6

Change Log
------------------
2016-10-15 Creation.
2016-10-16 Add break points for #events vs #gb lvl and the ToR Calculator itself for self using.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

ITown

Well-Known Member
Basics

1. ToR is a flat value GB.
a. Building with flat value give a specific and static (per single level) value of gold/production.
b. Building with percentile value, usually enhance other buildings – for example, St. Marks Ballista allow to harvest 90 gold buildings with double the value (level 1).​

2. Percentile buildings hold through the ages much better (if you upgrade the town houses, you will get more money of the same level building.

3. Therefore, like most of the flat value GB, the ToR have a limited life span.
a. For example, the value of the same 100 FP for a poor iron age player is much higher than for an arctic future fest-farmer with 30 SoK’s and a cape at level 20.​

I haven't read the rest of this yet... but I don't agree with your assessment.

Flat value GBs give static values which do not get any better when you age up. For example, the coins and happiness on Space Needle are static.

Your assessment of the value of forge points is also inaccurate... because players do not automatically get 30 SoKs and a level 20 cape just because they are in a later age. I have neither, yet my city is in the Arctic Future. Meanwhile, I've seen players in the Late Middle Ages with nearly 100 SoKs.

Forge points are not a static yield from a GB because they become more expensive as you buy more of them. Therefore, the longer you play, the greater the coin value forge points have.

Setting that aside, the other relics ToR gives aren't static-value rewards either. 200 goods - not static. 5 military units - not static. Random BPs - not static. Premium decoration - not static. This is because the rewards are different depending on the age you have attained.

In fact, the only static rewards are rogues, wishing wells, watchfires, and renovation kits, all of which are "all ages" items.
 

ITown

Well-Known Member
Appendix A – how to value in Tiles the different relics.



1. The relics reward include some rewards that are easily calculated, and some who don’t.

2. I tried to find the most efficient way to produce each reward. If someone know a better way please leave a comment about it and I will update it.

3. And in some cases I got stuck and gave a thumb up value.

Reward options valued by Tile Spaces:

Goods –

As per the local guide https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com...quired-to-run-1-current-goods-building.13276/

HMA good production will need 39 tiles to produce 210 goods per week (max efficiency).

So 1 good is equal 0.185 tiles.

Ignoring all population/happiness costs associated with goods production, in the Arctic Future Era, it requires somewhere in the ballpark of 75 tiles to produce 210 Arctic Future goods - as opposed to roughly 13 tiles in HMA.

Also, I find it curious that you use other GBs/event buildings to assign value to FPs, but use goods buildings to assign value to goods, even though there are event buildings that provide goods.

I like your attitude in trying to offer a value to ToR, but the reality is not everything can be given a value just based on tile usage in your city. Not only that, but different players value items differently. For example, some players, like me, assign zero value to watchfires, whereas you've assigned it a value of 6.

Edit: made an error in tile cost for AF goods.
 
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DeletedUser27184


I haven't read the rest of this yet... but I don't agree with your assessment.

Flat value GBs give static values which do not get any better when you age up. For example, the coins and happiness on Space Needle are static.

Your assessment of the value of forge points is also inaccurate... because players do not automatically get 30 SoKs and a level 20 cape just because they are in a later age. I have neither, yet my city is in the Arctic Future. Meanwhile, I've seen players in the Late Middle Ages with nearly 100 SoKs.

Forge points are not a static yield from a GB because they become more expensive as you buy more of them. Therefore, the longer you play, the greater the coin value forge points have.

Setting that aside, the other relics ToR gives aren't static-value rewards either. 200 goods - not static. 5 military units - not static. Random BPs - not static. Premium decoration - not static. This is because the rewards are different depending on the age you have attained.

In fact, the only static rewards are rogues, wishing wells, watchfires, and renovation kits, all of which are "all ages" items.

I agree with you.

As is was just a preliminary point, I just deleted it from the guide.
 

DeletedUser27184

Ignoring all population/happiness costs associated with goods production, in the Arctic Future Era, it requires somewhere in the ballpark of 50 tiles to produce 210 Arctic Future goods - as opposed to roughly 13 tiles in HMA.
True. And that's why I wrote that the earlier you get the building it have more impact and it worth more. As the ages progress' the tower which will stay at the same level, is worth less.

Also, I find it curious that you use other GBs/event buildings to assign value to FPs, but use goods buildings to assign value to goods, even though there are event buildings that provide goods.
a. Most of the guides that analyze GB uses the goods building as the base for a comparison. I tried to stay true to this form as much as I could. This will help the guide to be understood by any who read the guides and understand their limitations.
b. If you have an idea where I can value a reward without using a GB, I would be happy to hear.
c. Of course the main problem is that we work in the barter system. You put FP, and get BP. So I tried to convert everything to dollars (tile size is the coin in this allegory). Even when I have to use the GB, I convert it to Tile Size. Now that I am in the modern times and have a coin to use, I can compare the value of buildings, including GB's.

I like your attitude in trying to offer a value to ToR, but the reality is not everything can be given a value just based on tile usage in your city. Not only that, but different players value items differently. For example, some players, like me, assign zero value to watchfires, whereas you've assigned it a value of 6.
I agree.

This kind of a guide have a lot of limitations, and they need the personal tweaking to work.
If you just read if for general guidance, then it works generally well :)
If you read the guide fully, and you have personal perfectness (watchfire worth zero FP for you), it is rather possible to play with the data in your mind. Which I guess you did. For example, lets assume you have a ToR level 1. Since you don't like the watchfire, you will need more events to pass the "worth" point. So instead of doing a minimum of 22 events (as per the guide) you need to do around the 30 or so....
 

DeletedUser27184

ITown, I added the excel spread sheet in the guide. You can now download it, change the value of watchfire to 0 and see the table changes. Works like magic.
 

ITown

Well-Known Member
True. And that's why I wrote that the earlier you get the building it have more impact and it worth more. As the ages progress' the tower which will stay at the same level, is worth less.

I don't understand this logic. If a goods building is 4x3 in HMA and 5x5 + 5x5 + 5x5 in the Arctic Future, wouldn't that make the arctic future goods more valuable than the HMA goods?

If that's the case, then ToR has more value in an Arctic Future city than it has in an HMA city, at least for goods.
Similarly, a military building in the arctic future uses anywhere from 16 to 30 tiles, whereas an HMA military building uses 9-12 tiles. So again, the military units would be more valuable in AF than in HMA (in terms of tiles), if you assume neither player has a high level alcatraz.

This is ultimately what makes it so difficult to give a value-estimate to GBs. The value changes depending on the age you're in. Generally speaking, static-value GBs are very good in early ages, and not very good in late ages. On the other hand, non-static bonuses generally increase in value as you advance technologically.
 
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DeletedUser13838

Ignoring all population/happiness costs associated with goods production, in the Arctic Future Era, it requires somewhere in the ballpark of 50 tiles to produce 210 Arctic Future goods - as opposed to roughly 13 tiles in HMA.
How do you get the 50 tiles? I can see that being the case assuming an AF building is 25 tiles and the CE building needed to produce the unrefined goods is also 25 tiles. But a PE building is also needed and that is an additional 20-25 tiles. I suppose you can include CE goods from GBs but the GBs don't scale.
 

ITown

Well-Known Member
How do you get the 50 tiles? I can see that being the case assuming an AF building is 25 tiles and the CE building needed to produce the unrefined goods is also 25 tiles. But a PE building is also needed and that is an additional 20-25 tiles. I suppose you can include CE goods from GBs but the GBs don't scale.
I edited my post prior to your reply. It says 75 now.
 

DeletedUser27184

I don't understand this logic. If a goods building is 4x3 in HMA and 5x5 + 5x5 + 5x5 in the Arctic Future, wouldn't that make the arctic future goods more valuable than the HMA goods?

If that's the case, then ToR has more value in an Arctic Future city than it has in an HMA city, at least for goods.
Similarly, a military building in the arctic future uses anywhere from 16 to 30 tiles, whereas an HMA military building uses 9-12 tiles. So again, the military units would be more valuable in AF than in HMA (in terms of tiles), if you assume neither player has a high level alcatraz.

This is ultimately what makes it so difficult to give a value-estimate to GBs. The value changes depending on the age you're in. Generally speaking, static-value GBs are very good in early ages, and not very good in late ages. On the other hand, non-static bonuses generally increase in value as you advance technologically.

I agree with you on several account, and disagree on one.
a. I agree that the ToR is good for almost any player who is playing the GE constantly.
b. I agree that you need more space for 1 good, as the ages advance. There is a nice guide about that here: https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com...quired-to-run-1-current-goods-building.13276/
c.Still, at future era, you will have about twice the size tiles of iron age play. AND then you add the GB that gives quite a lot of goods. All together I think its easier for a player at future to create 1 good. But I am not sure.

But, my main point here, and I hope you can agree with it: The earlier you get the ToR the better.
 

DeletedUser27860

With changes, how does the 100 fp stack up against levels?
In theory to get 100fp from a gold almost every week what level Tor would I need?

calculating in that I can see how much fp into Tor and figure how long it will take to pay off leveling it.
 
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