Did the Arc Improve the Game?

[Salsuero]

// end discussion

LOL -- if only it were that simple. hahahaha

 

[qaccy]

And there's nothing wrong with any of that. If you get booted from a guild, join or start another. You'll be fine. If you lose friends... add more. If you don't want those things to happen... don't use your Arc in a way that would cause those things. It doesn't bother me that the Arc is being used as intended... and why shouldn't someone try to profit? Everyone without an Arc is trying to do the same thing!

I do have Arc players help me just to help me... they will sometimes overpay for something just because they are bored and wanna dump forge points. Not everyone is like that, but people seem to like to lump everyone into one or two categories. I have a player who gives me the full 90% donation for my 3rd place as a breakeven every level... no profit. He does so because he says he likes that I've "been cool to him". So I pay enough to get it to where the 3rd place is at breakeven for a 90% Arc, and he donates. That results in a snipe over anyone with lower investments. So? It's my Arc. I set the rules. I appreciate his 90% bonus being in the game because he doesn't just do that on the Arc, but on other GBs that I ask him to. As a result, I notify him of opportunities where he could use his Arc to profit... self-levelers mostly... folks that we share as mutual friends. This has fostered a type of social cooperation that I probably wouldn't have bothered with without the support of his Arc given that we aren't in the same guild. It just wouldn't have really been a thought to work with him in this way if he didn't have a strong means to help me, which makes me wanna help him back.

If there are neighbors or other folks on my GBs, it's not my job to make it rewarding for them. That is their job. Sure, I try to give opportunities to my guildmates when I can, but my goal is to level my GBs at a minimal cost to me. Does that make me selfish? I'm trying to build an empire. These are the ways I choose to go about it. Now, I don't put my GBs in the swap threads to avoid that whole mess... and if I do, I try not to play the same way and at least attempt to make it possible for the swappers to get rewarded... but in my opinion, swap threads aren't a guarantee of anything other than a return investment of the same amount. If you self-donate, you have the same result... EXCEPT... the swap threads offer AN OPPORTUNITY for a reward.

Anyways, like I said... nothing wrong with anything you said there.

You basically only responded to the part of my post that wasn't my main point, which is that the Arc needs to be nerfed, not removed. You also specifically mention the one type of Arc owner who I specifically mention that I don't have a problem with to try to...counter...? what you quoted. Players like that aren't contributing with the problems the Arc causes when they do that. It's the ones who only put in half the level cost on a level 50 Arc as soon as it levels (as an example, there are many more than this though), locking out anyone else who may have been willing to put in their maximum Arc bonus in order to save the owner potentially hundreds of FPs that they now have to obtain in some other way. The difference between greedy players only looking to lock a spot and players like the one you and I mentioned who put in 90% on a spot totals up to over 3,000 FP going from level 30 to level 50 on an Arc...and that's only looking at the top two spots. That's more than 2000 FP that the #1 position is pocketing, at the expense of the owner and everyone else donating to that GB. And no, that's not being helpful 'because it's still free FP for the owner' because the status quo, in my opinion, is that there are players like me who would be giving 90% on those spots if the greedy players weren't locking us out of them. This is a problem that would be pretty thoroughly addressed by nerfing the Arc's effect. Sniping would still exist, which has always been a part of the game, but an Arc nerf would remove all instances of being able to lock in a spot on a freshly levelled GB and walking away with free FP to show for it.

In short, and to reiterate, I think the Arc's a good idea, but when placed alongside everything else in the game I see it providing way too much of that good idea and it's having a negative effect on the game as a result.

 

[Salsuero]

You basically only responded to the part of my post that wasn't my main point

But you said "essentially" and "my big problem" -- so I'm confused by that statement.

It's the ones who only put in half the level cost on a level 50 Arc as soon as it levels (as an example, there are many more than this though), locking out anyone else who may have been willing to put in their maximum Arc bonus in order to save the owner potentially hundreds of FPs that they now have to obtain in some other way.

I will respond directly to that point: the game allows you to donate to any GB you have access to and it allows you to donate any amount toward a reward that you desire. If you beat someone to a reward fair and square, that is certainly unfortunate for the owner, but then the owner can also choose not to unlock levels until an agreed upon time with said swap partner(s). So it's really something that can be remedied with some forethought and planning. Therefore, I respectfully disagree with your criticism.

greedy

Really? That's an opinion. Here's another adjective: savvy.

And no, that's not being helpful 'because it's still free FP for the owner' because the status quo, in my opinion, is that there are players like me who would be giving 90% on those spots if the greedy players weren't locking us out of them.

Well, I have a mid-range Arc and I only have to self-donate about 175-225 on average to level it. So... doesn't really seem like much of an issue if you think about it, really. But ok... your sad about that. Well, this game isn't about altruism. It's a beat me or I beat you game for the most part with elements of cooperation. You don't get one without the other.

In short, and to reiterate, I think the Arc's a good idea, but when placed alongside everything else in the game I see it providing way too much of that good idea and it's having a negative effect on the game as a result.

I disagree... respectfully so.

 

[DeletedUser29563]

Your argument

Its not an argument...more of a comparison.
The point being....any way you turn it...the Arc..and its benefits are available for exploitation to more than just the few "elite" players that have done just
that. Some simply chose not to...

And that's a good thing?

Good or bad is simply a matter of ones opinion. It is however..reality.

Except that some had a head start of years on others.

Which is the case with or without the Arc.
Would you have each players progress reset each time a new feature is introduced? It seems silly to you.for me to draw parallels between FOE and the real world. But the real world and this game are both driven by the same force. That force being the human condition. Call it greed..call it apathy...call it what you will. But all of the issues you and others have outlined are not born from the Arc. They are born from the player.
I believe Arc is good for the game because it has triggered a cycle of evolution that has kept it relevant for thousands of players. And also...just as there are many examples of how it has hurt players. There are just as many scenarios were it has actually helped level the playing field for less experienced players as well.
Me being one of them......

 

[DeletedUser31498]

But you said "essentially" and "my big problem" -- so I'm confused by that statement.



I will respond directly to that point: the game allows you to donate to any GB you have access to and it allows you to donate any amount toward a reward that you desire. If you beat someone to a reward fair and square, that is certainly unfortunate for the owner, but then the owner can also choose not to unlock levels until an agreed upon time with said swap partner(s). So it's really something that can be remedied with some forethought and planning. Therefore, I respectfully disagree with your criticism.


Really? That's an opinion. Here's another adjective: savvy.



Well, I have a mid-range Arc and I only have to self-donate about 175-225 on average to level it. So... doesn't really seem like much of an issue if you think about it, really. But ok... your sad about that. Well, this game isn't about altruism. It's a beat me or I beat you game for the most part with elements of cooperation. You don't get one without the other.



I disagree... respectfully so.

lol to this:

Ok, well everyone is entitled to their opinion and you can all hate the Arc if you so desire. I don't and I will continue to level it and use it. No reason to keep commenting because I'm obviously not going to convince anyone of anything, nor they me. Enjoy the game, everyone. I absolutely do... Arc and all!

 

[DeletedUser31498]

Question for those who have been around for a long time: When Arc was introduced, was camping in an Era and FP for good swaps very common? I wonder how much INNO did in fact foresee.

And for those who comment like Sal about all the "hard work" they put in to get an Arc up and running, what a joke. I've been playing for a couple months, still in Iron, and could easily be close to power leveling my Arc right now if I wanted. When someone sells you goods for a couple weeks' FREE FP bar accumulation, instead of years of researching and goods producing, yeah we have different definitions of working hard.

 

[DeletedUser29055]

A concern for equity is not to "whine" or to be irrational. Equity is actually one of the highest virtues of modern civilization. Capitalism tramples on that virtue every day, but the power of an idea is still greater than the power of money. Love surpasses greed.
.

Oh men. You Start an impossible quest here. Fairness in a game where players have played for years and some only weeks. Not possible ata lol. Hey, I want all long term players stop playing now. Immediately. It is not fair they started earlier. And yes, all the soks they amassed in events where they were easier to get. Give them back. All of it. Now. Some didnT get a full palace set. Unfair. All palaces, back.

And wealth? If tomorrow inno decides to shut everything down. Everyone is equally wealthy. Zero. It is a game.

Everyone can get an arc. That is your equity right there. Everyone willing to dedicate to the game to get the bps, find someone to trade goods, contribute and swap the first level.s get more bps to unlock the levels. Find higher arcs to power level. That is equity. If the arc would get nerfed and players have profited from it years ago, I would find it very unfair to me, coming later in the game and only have a mid level arc yet. Very unfair. How would you address my unfair treatment?

Capitalism may not be the best and some social elements are needed. But, tell me one country where communism worked. People work for money. Hippies stay at the beach and ... well you said it.

 

[*Arturis*]

Economics 101.
For those that worry that your Arc will be nerfed, level it to higher than level 80 lol.

 

[DeletedUser27184]

Did the Arc improved the game?
Yes.

Why?

Check for example the next reply:

Question for those who have been around for a long time: When Arc was introduced, was camping in an Era and FP for good swaps very common? I wonder how much INNO did in fact foresee.

And for those who comment like Sal about all the "hard work" they put in to get an Arc up and running, what a joke. I've been playing for a couple months, still in Iron, and could easily be close to power leveling my Arc right now if I wanted. When someone sells you goods for a couple weeks' FREE FP bar accumulation, instead of years of researching and goods producing, yeah we have different definitions of working hard.

For me the Arc is the great equalizer. You can get it in early age, you can level it quite fast, and start leveling the rest of your GB's.
Within the last year and a bit, I did exactly this. Now I can play with the big boys.

I joined an established guild. With several High Arc members. And did they snipe, oh ya! Did I cry, oh no!
They sniped me once. Then I learn my lesson - I just put 3 times the reward, through the swapping FP threads in my guild, and now no one snipe my reward.
Now, after a year, I have a high Arc too. Now I start to level all my GB's to high levels.

So, for me, I see the Arc as totally opposite to what the opening message in this thread implied.

I came to play with player who are here for 3-4 years. Now, within a year, I managed to get close to them. And the Arc allowed that. Without it, I am not sure I could have done it.

So I don't think the Arc make the rich richer. I think it make the poor richer. And allow the poor to join the rich class around.

So, if I would have been an established player, with a new player coming, I would say that the Arc has ruined the game, because it allow poor people to join fast the elite class. Which is about the opposite of what was said in this thread.

So YES!!!! The Arc improved the game by allowing new players to join the HighEnd game much faster. Yay!

 

[DeletedUser29563]

Economics 101.
For those that worry that your Arc will be nerfed, level it to higher level 80 lol.

On my way...

 

[Salsuero]

lol to this:

Ok, well everyone is entitled to their opinion and you can all hate the Arc if you so desire. I don't and I will continue to level it and use it. No reason to keep commenting because I'm obviously not going to convince anyone of anything, nor they me. Enjoy the game, everyone. I absolutely do... Arc and all!

I guess we're not entitled to evolve our thoughts and decisions either, right?

And for those who comment like Sal about all the "hard work" they put in to get an Arc up and running, what a joke. I've been playing for a couple months, still in Iron, and could easily be close to power leveling my Arc right now if I wanted. When someone sells you goods for a couple weeks' FREE FP bar accumulation, instead of years of researching and goods producing, yeah we have different definitions of working hard.

Sure, buddy. Sure. You win!

 

[Salsuero]

On my way...

Me too!

 

[*Arturis*]

Back to the topic:
My city GB stats when the Arc came out:
Jan 2016: https://prnt.sc/9qi4me
Dec 2017:http://prntscr.com/hj663i

 

[Freshmeboy]

I don't know LLQ...Arc at only level 131 after a year of play...? I think we may need someone with a little more gaming experience to settle this discussion once and for all...

 

[qaccy]

But you said "essentially" and "my big problem" -- so I'm confused by that statement.

I will respond directly to that point: the game allows you to donate to any GB you have access to and it allows you to donate any amount toward a reward that you desire. If you beat someone to a reward fair and square, that is certainly unfortunate for the owner, but then the owner can also choose not to unlock levels until an agreed upon time with said swap partner(s). So it's really something that can be remedied with some forethought and planning. Therefore, I respectfully disagree with your criticism.

Really? That's an opinion. Here's another adjective: savvy.

Well, I have a mid-range Arc and I only have to self-donate about 175-225 on average to level it. So... doesn't really seem like much of an issue if you think about it, really. But ok... your sad about that. Well, this game isn't about altruism. It's a beat me or I beat you game for the most part with elements of cooperation. You don't get one without the other.

I disagree... respectfully so.

The thing is, having to 'thwart' specific Arc players by keeping levels locked until specific points is, once again, a problem caused by the Arc and its effect. This was not a problem that existed prior to the Arc, and again would not be a problem if the Arc's effect was significantly reduced. Of course, that would significantly increase the amount of investment and overpay for rewards in order to get GBs levelled across the board, but my aim is to try curbing underhanded behavior as much as possible and it's currently rampant with the Arc's design.

Anyway, you seem to be hung up on the impression that I want the Arc removed from the game completely. I don't. I want its effect lowered, and there's a substantial difference between the two. Again, I think the bonus is a cool idea, and I personally think every GB should have at least one bonus that's completely unique to that GB, a trend that Inno seems to be leaning towards with GBs ever since the Tomorrow Era. It's just that you can't put the Arc next to a GB like the Seed Vault or even the Kraken (nevermind the other average or worse GBs) and tell me that, per level, the Arc is on equal footing with even the other 'good' GBs. The only playstyle that wouldn't benefit from having an Arc is exclusively self-levellers, because for literally everyone else it splits the game wide open in terms of development compared to any other GB (and side note, the greedy behavior I'd like to see curbed sees self-levellers as the holy grail for exploiting although they're also the purest example of people who'd accept any donation as free FPs). An old point here, but bears repeating: Before the Arc was introduced to the game, people generally picked one GB to 'stick with' and level up well beyond 10, and there was no clear consensus on which one was best. Some folks did CDM, some Alcatraz, some Chateau, some even picked the Cape. However, once the Arc started taking off EVERYONE switched over to that, and now there are more level 80+ Arcs than there are all other GBs COMBINED. If that's not clear evidence to you that something's not balanced properly regarding the Arc, I'm really not sure how to make it any clearer.

 

[*Arturis*]

I don't know LLQ...Arc at only level 131 after a year of play...? I think we may need someone with a little more gaming experience to settle this discussion once and for all...

Not a year, Jan 2016 to Dec 2017 is a little shy of 2 years lol.

 

[Salsuero]

The thing is, having to 'thwart' specific Arc players by keeping levels locked until specific points is, once again, a problem caused by the Arc and its effect.

One man's (or woman's) problem is another man's (or woman's) solution.

This was not a problem that existed prior to the Arc

Lots of problems are created out of nothing. It doesn't mean they are bad because problems arose. It simply meant adjustments needed to be made from the way things were to the way things are. The fundamental issue we disagree on is that I do not see the Arc as overpowered and you do. Therefore, you believe it needs to be "fixed" and I do not.

my aim is to try curbing underhanded behavior as much as possible and it's currently rampant with the Arc's design.

At the expense of people who aren't underhanded (which assumes I even agree with your use of the "underhanded" adjective in this context, which I do not)? So your argument is that we need to cut everyone's hands off because some people steal?

Anyway, you seem to be hung up on the impression that I want the Arc removed from the game completely. I don't. I want its effect lowered, and there's a substantial difference between the two.

No, I'm hung up on the fact that you want it to be nerfed. No impression otherwise.

It's just that you can't put the Arc next to a GB like the Seed Vault or even the Kraken (nevermind the other average or worse GBs) and tell me that, per level, the Arc is on equal footing with even the other 'good' GBs.

No, you can't. I think that the Kraken giving you a virtual free kill when you get up toward level 80 approximately 20 battles in a row... that's pretty damn powerful if you are in favor of "fair" fights.

Before the Arc was introduced to the game, people generally picked one GB to 'stick with' and level up well beyond 10, and there was no clear consensus on which one was best. Some folks did CDM, some Alcatraz, some Chateau, some even picked the Cape. However, once the Arc started taking off EVERYONE switched over to that

I really don't see a problem with that. I don't know why you do. You can level up any GB you want to. Don't level up the Arc if you don't want to. Don't even build it if you don't want to. Nothing is forcing you to do these things. Why do you care so much what other people have decided to level up? How does that make or break you argument that it needs to be nerfed?

and now there are more level 80+ Arcs than there are all other GBs COMBINED.

That's just not true. Not even remotely close. That is what we now are forced to lovingly call "fake news". If half of everyone in the game had only one GB and it was a level 80+ Arc and the rest of everyone in the game had just one non-80+ Arc for their one and only GB... that would still only be an equal number of 80+ Arcs to other GBs. Saying there are MORE of them compared to ALL OTHERS is a bald-faced lie.

f that's not clear evidence to you that something's not balanced properly regarding the Arc, I'm really not sure how to make it any clearer.

Well since it's not true... no, it's not clear evidence. There are WAY WAY WAY more GBs than 80+ Arcs.

 

[ITown]

Your comments (here and elsewhere) fail to address the key problem — as I clearly stated in the very first sentence of my original post:

It seems rather clear that the Arc has been a tool to increase the disparity of wealth in the game.​

.

This is not accurate. Please read my post on page 3.

 

[ITown]

the Arc needs to be nerfed, not removed. You also specifically mention the one type of Arc owner who I specifically mention that I don't have a problem with to try to...counter...? what you quoted. Players like that aren't contributing with the problems the Arc causes when they do that. It's the ones who only put in half the level cost on a level 50 Arc as soon as it levels (as an example, there are many more than this though), locking out anyone else who may have been willing to put in their maximum Arc bonus in order to save the owner potentially hundreds of FPs that they now have to obtain in some other way. The difference between greedy players only looking to lock a spot and players like the one you and I mentioned who put in 90% on a spot totals up to over 3,000 FP going from level 30 to level 50 on an Arc...and that's only looking at the top two spots. That's more than 2000 FP that the #1 position is pocketing, at the expense of the owner and everyone else donating to that GB. And no, that's not being helpful 'because it's still free FP for the owner' because the status quo, in my opinion, is that there are players like me who would be giving 90% on those spots if the greedy players weren't locking us out of them. This is a problem that would be pretty thoroughly addressed by nerfing the Arc's effect. Sniping would still exist, which has always been a part of the game, but an Arc nerf would remove all instances of being able to lock in a spot on a freshly levelled GB and walking away with free FP to show for it.

In short, and to reiterate, I think the Arc's a good idea, but when placed alongside everything else in the game I see it providing way too much of that good idea and it's having a negative effect on the game as a result.

Your argument here is nonsense. Your assertion is that the arc needs to be nerfed.

Your rationale?

Because some people profit off of arc.

So to solve the problem you would do what - make arc stop at 60% to prevent anybody from auto locking for profit?

All that does is slow the pace of the game down. And make GB leveling significantly more frustrating.

And your comment about people locking by donating *only* half is silly too. I have 91.5% arc bonus. So should I therefore call you stingy and a bad person for donating at a mere 90%?

 

[DeletedUser27023]

After reading 3 pages of this topic, I. was ready to quit the game. Depressing.