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More diversity in representation

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DeletedUser40319

Let me begin by saying I really enjoy this game. My son downloaded it on my phone and said "here , try this" and I was hooked.

My only real complaint has been the lack of diversity. I was really excited when i found my first portrait in the Archaeology Event, an Indian woman like myself! Only she looked white. I even joked in my guild that she must be a Brahmin because she was so pale. I just ignored it.

Then I saw another portrait from the event, same pale skin. These women look like white women dressed up to go to an Indian woman's wedding! (The only reason I can safely think of for them to be dressed like that outside of cultural appropriation) Have any of you actually taken the time to look at an Indian woman? We come in a rainbow of shades, but very few are glowing white.

One of the aspects that drew me to this game was it's apparent appreciation for history and culture. The white washing is in complete opposition to that spirit.

I propose that you add diversity to the skin colors.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
The white washing is in complete opposition to that spirit.

I propose that you add diversity to the skin colors.
I think you are looking for an issue to be offended by that doesn't exist. You are projecting your own racial biases onto others and assume you know another's thoughts and motives in light of them. Because of your own prejudices, you then assume the worst in others and come here to complain about an issue you ENTIRELY made up in your own head.

Sorry, not buying into issues from your imagination.
 
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DeletedUser40319

I came here because I was directed by the Help Staff to submit a proposal.

The issue does exist. The portraits of the Indian women look like white women.

And I while I find your mature response to my inquiry a non-starter, I am not surprised by it.

I was hoping that there would be actual dialogue about an obvious issue, bu it appears that was definitely an incorrect assumption.
 

Emberguard

Well-Known Member

DeletedUser40319

The ONLY reason I brought this to the forum is because I was directed to by the HELP staff.

I have not attacked the game or anyone, I simply reported an issue that I have as a player finding a brown skinned avatar.

Why this bothers or offends you, I have no idea.

Am I not allowed to express my opinion with an issue that I have when playing my game and wanting an avatar that correctly represents me?
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
I came here because I was directed by the Help Staff to submit a proposal.
Support's standard, "Go away" response. They send you here so they don't have to deal with it.
The issue does exist. The portraits of the Indian women look like white women.
The issue exists for you, because of your racial biases and they look like white women in your opinion, as they appear on your monitor/screen. Just like a TV needs to be adjusted for color balance to avoid things like overly green grass and orange skin tones, monitors and screens also need to be adjusted. In fact, there are VERY expensive instruments designed to color balance monitors for professional digital artists.

In other words, tone down your screen brightness, tweak the color, contrast etc. Just like you did on your TV and find a color tone that you believe more accurately represents your idea of reality. Unless you've seen the original digital images on the original artists color balanced monitor, EVERYTHING you have to say about any of it is all stuff you made up. Projections of your racial biases onto another's artistic work.
And I while I find your mature response to my inquiry a non-starter, I am not surprised by it.
Of course it's a non-starter, and of course you're not surprised. You've projected onto me whatever evil stereotype you projected which you now use to support your original premise you invented in your own imagination out of whole cloth.
I was hoping that there would be actual dialogue about an obvious issue, bu it appears that was definitely an incorrect assumption.
This is actual dialog and that is NOT what you were hoping to get. You were hoping to get AGREEMENT. You wanted all of us to rally around your imagined cause hoping we'd go running for the pitchforks to help you skewer the fine artists at Inno.

Again, not buying into issues from your imagination.
 

DeletedUser40319

Could you point out for me which ones you take issue with? And give a comparison as to what you'd like them to look like?

Here's a compilation of portraits from the fan wiki. You can use right click to get the image urls
https://forgeofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Portraits

Thank you for actually answering my inquiry in a reasoned fashion.
Delilah, Mata, and Pari are the most recent examples.

I attached a picture of some real life Indian women so you can compare.

And I would like to note that this issue does have real world implications. Skin bleaching is a huge issue in the Indian community.
 

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DeletedUser40319

you guys can keep saying whatever you want
Support's standard, "Go away" response. They send you here so they don't have to deal with it.

The issue exists for you, because of your racial biases and they look like white women in your opinion, as they appear on your monitor/screen. Just like a TV needs to be adjusted for color balance to avoid things like overly green grass and orange skin tones, monitors and screens also need to be adjusted. In fact, there are VERY expensive instruments designed to color balance monitors for professional digital artists.

In other words, tone down your screen brightness, tweak the color, contrast etc. Just like you did on your TV and find a color tone that you believe more accurately represents your idea of reality. Unless you've seen the original digital images on the original artists color balanced monitor, EVERYTHING you have to say about any of it is all stuff you made up. Projections of your racial biases onto another's artistic work.

Of course it's a non-starter, and of course you're not surprised. You've projected onto me whatever evil stereotype you projected which you now use to support your original premise you invented in your own imagination out of whole cloth.

This is actual dialog and that is NOT what you were hoping to get. You were hoping to get AGREEMENT. You wanted all of us to rally around your imagined cause hoping we'd go running for the pitchforks to help you skewer the fine artists at Inno.

Again, not buying into issues from your imagination.
 

Graviton

Well-Known Member
Am I not allowed to express my opinion with an issue that I have when playing my game and wanting an avatar that correctly represents me?

Indeed you are. I don't quite understand the response either. Or maybe I do. 'Nuff said about that.

The existing avatars seem to be diverse but I haven't paid attention to the new ones, and therefore I have no opinion. If those avatars are suppose to be Indian people but the skin tone is wrong, there's no reason not to mention it.

Here are the proposal guidelines:
https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/proposal-guidelines-read-before-posting.139/

If you want to pursue this you should put it in the proper format. Be prepared for more knee-jerk reactions to it.
 

DeletedUser40319

I have been playing my game not bothering anyone. I noticed an issue for ME that was slightly annoying. I sent a message to HELP. They said come here and post in proposals. I had never even bothered to sign up for the forum.

I submitted my proposal as directed about something that bothered me.

I thought it would be a simple thing, I express my issue and maybe get a response from the game, maybe not. That would be it.

I did not expect some random person to be throwing up capital letters spelling A$$.

I did not expect someone to call me out for racial bias (especially as an Indian woman from a blended family and my children are white).

You are the ones who are making this so much more than it needed to be.

Saying anymore would be fruitless and life is too short to argue with some person whom I will never know.
 

DeletedUser

Let me begin by saying I really enjoy this game. My son downloaded it on my phone and said "here , try this" and I was hooked.

My only real complaint has been the lack of diversity. I was really excited when i found my first portrait in the Archaeology Event, an Indian woman like myself! Only she looked white. I even joked in my guild that she must be a Brahmin because she was so pale. I just ignored it.

Then I saw another portrait from the event, same pale skin. These women look like white women dressed up to go to an Indian woman's wedding! (The only reason I can safely think of for them to be dressed like that outside of cultural appropriation) Have any of you actually taken the time to look at an Indian woman? We come in a rainbow of shades, but very few are glowing white.

One of the aspects that drew me to this game was it's apparent appreciation for history and culture. The white washing is in complete opposition to that spirit.

I propose that you add diversity to the skin colors.
First let me apologize for those Forum members who are trying to dismiss your issue. This is the second mention I have seen of this avatar problem. Unfortunately, I don't seem to have gotten any of these during my Event progress. It would help if you could take a screenshot of one or more of these avatars so we can see exactly what you're referring to. As far as the link that @Emberguard provided, I don't think it is completely up to date with this Event's avatars, as I don't see any new ones that look at all like Indian women regardless of skin color. I am definitely in favor of this getting fixed, as Inno has a plethora of avatars depicting people of color fairly accurately and it would be a shame to fall down on that now.

And now, I must give you my standard response to any proposal that isn't in the proper format:
Proposals need to be in proper format. You can find the proper format in this thread:
https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/proposal-guidelines-read-before-posting.139/
You can change the original post to the proper format using the Edit button. Pending proper format, I am moving this thread to Forge Hall for discussion. If you have questions about this or about why the proper format is needed, you may PM me. You can do this by clicking on my name and going to my profile page and click on "Start a Conversation". I will respond usually within 24 hours.

If/when you put this proposal in proper format, post a message here with my name in this format: @Stephen Longshanks and I will move it back to the Proposals section of the Forum.
 

DeletedUser36624

The assortment of portraits that you can unearth are from past Summer events (https://forgeofempires.fandom.com/wiki/Archaeology_Event#Avatars). Many of them are of actual people or modeled on actual people from historical sources. Unfortunately, many of the historical portraits of people like Majarahas (Tanak and Pari are a Maharaja and his wife in the storyline that goes with the portraits) were lightened in skin tone deliberately. I don't know the story that goes with the portraits of Radjah and Mata, but Inno is usually very good around representation issues and if something doesn't mesh with today's reality, it is typically due the source material from the past that they have to work with. The only quibble I have is that their artwork of East Asian people frequently doesn't look right (like the recent portraits from the Spring event).
 

Agent327

Well-Known Member
Let me begin by saying I really enjoy this game. My son downloaded it on my phone and said "here , try this" and I was hooked.

My only real complaint has been the lack of diversity. I was really excited when i found my first portrait in the Archaeology Event, an Indian woman like myself! Only she looked white. I even joked in my guild that she must be a Brahmin because she was so pale. I just ignored it.

Then I saw another portrait from the event, same pale skin. These women look like white women dressed up to go to an Indian woman's wedding! (The only reason I can safely think of for them to be dressed like that outside of cultural appropriation) Have any of you actually taken the time to look at an Indian woman? We come in a rainbow of shades, but very few are glowing white.

One of the aspects that drew me to this game was it's apparent appreciation for history and culture. The white washing is in complete opposition to that spirit.

I propose that you add diversity to the skin colors.

This event isn't about Indian women. The Pocahontas event was. You should have played that one, although it is a different Indian.

You are a new player. You can not see all available avatars, so you have no right to complain at all. Get your facts straight first.

These racism and discrimination complaints are getting real tiresome. There are a lot of avatars and about every group, race or skin color can complain about them. This is a game. Not a political event!

I have heard from a very good source that the snowmen are about to start an uproar, cause in the portrait their nose is to big.
 

DeletedUser36020

Let me begin by saying I really enjoy this game. My son downloaded it on my phone and said "here , try this" and I was hooked.

My only real complaint has been the lack of diversity. I was really excited when i found my first portrait in the Archaeology Event, an Indian woman like myself! Only she looked white. I even joked in my guild that she must be a Brahmin because she was so pale. I just ignored it.

Then I saw another portrait from the event, same pale skin. These women look like white women dressed up to go to an Indian woman's wedding! (The only reason I can safely think of for them to be dressed like that outside of cultural appropriation) Have any of you actually taken the time to look at an Indian woman? We come in a rainbow of shades, but very few are glowing white.

One of the aspects that drew me to this game was it's apparent appreciation for history and culture. The white washing is in complete opposition to that spirit.

I propose that you add diversity to the skin colors.
You lost all validity the moment you brought up the racist idea of "cultural appropriation."

Also, if your game is showing these avatars as "glowing white" I highly suggest you look at your display because they are definitely not white.
 

DeletedUser

This event isn't about Indian women. The Pocahontas event was. You should have played that one, although it is a different Indian.
Pocahontas was a Native American. If you were familiar with US culture, you would know that the term "Indian" is no longer considered accurate when talking about anyone but those from India.

On a more general note about some of the other players' posts, the amount of blatant racism being displayed in response to this thread is disheartening to say the least.
 
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Emberguard

Well-Known Member
Thank you for actually answering my inquiry in a reasoned fashion.
Delilah, Mata, and Pari are the most recent examples.

I attached a picture of some real life Indian women so you can compare.

And I would like to note that this issue does have real world implications. Skin bleaching is a huge issue in the Indian community.
Ok I did not realise Mata was meant to be Indian at all. Just thought they were pretty. Pari I'd say is somewhat borderline though it wouldn't hurt to slightly darken. Delilah yeah I'd give that to you, it would need darkening to pass as Indian.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
I thought it would be a simple thing, I express my issue and maybe get a response from the game, maybe not. That would be it.
So, let's break down your OP so you can see where you made a thing, where there should have been no thing.
Let me begin by saying I really enjoy this game. My son downloaded it on my phone and said "here, try this" and I was hooked.
Good start, but the obvious, say something nice before you say what you really want to say. Ok, whatever.
My only real complaint has been the lack of diversity. I was really excited when i found my first portrait in the Archaeology Event, an Indian woman like myself! Only she looked white. I even joked in my guild that she must be a Brahmin because she was so pale. I just ignored it.
For me, this is where you start to go off the rails. Admittedly, I am not up on the latest pecking order of the Indian caste system, but on the one hand, you acknowledge there are, in fact, Indian women who look like this, but it certainly sounds as if the Brahmin skin tone is not quite to your liking. Somehow, not quite legit Indian. So clearly there's a problem.
Then I saw another portrait from the event, same pale skin. These women look like white women dressed up to go to an Indian woman's wedding! (The only reason I can safely think of for them to be dressed like that outside of cultural appropriation) Have any of you actually taken the time to look at an Indian woman? We come in a rainbow of shades, but very few are glowing white.
And this is where your train went FLYING off the tracks, right off the bridge, meeting a horrible death at the bottom of the ravine. As you can see by my responses, I'd left your wrecked train, the moment I saw it going off the rails.

These women look like white women. No longer Brahmin even, nope full on white. The evil white, the demon white. 'Dressed up' (fake, phony) going to an Indian woman's wedding (the real, genuine Indian, not some fake or a Brahmin). Must be going to a wedding or it must be Cultural Appropriation. Seriously, what the hell does that mean anyway? Do your 'white' kids wear jeans? Do you? Ever? Ever cook a hot dog at a cook out? You didn't make those.

BTW - I love curry, when I can find an Indian restaurant that uses authentic recipes and makes them right. How do I know when I've found one? A healthy smattering of patrons of Indian ethnicity. You know what? Because I like curry so much and know my way around the kitchen, I've got several cookbooks of just curry recipes. And evil me, I cook curries at home and have even served curries to my friends and family!!! "Holy Imperialism Batman!" Just stop. It's stupid.

Yeah, start calling names, using racial terms as racial slurs and I'm out. "But I can't be racist, I'm a woman of color!" Sorry love, you're racial bias is shining bright. As bright as that Brahmin skin you love so much.

One of the aspects that drew me to this game was it's apparent appreciation for history and culture. The white washing is in complete opposition to that spirit.
And just to make sure the train bursts into flames upon impact, you give us this gem. What has this little nugget revealed about you?

White washing - Other than the obvious race baiting and name calling, with one dumb phrase you have just assumed the artist is white (I'll leave the caps in your mind, but they're there), at least NOT a person of color. A person lacking in melanin with evil motives, the motive of whitewashing.

Again, what the hell does that mean? The artist finished and Tom Sawyer had a go with some milk and a brush?

No, you assume, assume, assume. Assume they're white, assume they have evil motives, then drop in here to project YOUR racial issues and biases onto others you don't know and rally support behind your projection. You've assigned a shade of melanin to the artist in your mind. Then, based on your assumed melanin levels, you ascribe evil intent and motive to the skin tone of the Indians represented by the assumed 'melanin challenged artist' in their artwork. A skin tone you admit exists in your culture, albeit to a lesser extent than those with darker tones. But no, the evil white artist must be guilty of white washing, because hey, you said so and there's some virtue that needs signaling.

Let's bottom line this for the kiddies out there.

You, took a look at two images, projected a race onto the artists with no evidence, then ascribed evil motive and intent to the artists based on the skin tone represented in their artwork. I'm not sure where you went to school, but when I learned to speak, a racist was a person who projected negative thoughts, emotions, intent, motives, etc. onto another person simply because of their skin color. You're pretty much textbook racist here.

I'm not buying into your racism, cultural appropriation, virtue signaling, whatever, butt hurt. No.
I propose that you add diversity to the skin colors.
So, let's say this is indeed what you want. A position I support and take no issue with. How could you have worded your proposal to get my support. The support of an ordinary person who has obviously had enough of your obviously over educated BS. "Professing themselves to be wise, became fools" Rom 1:22
Let me begin by saying I really enjoy this game. My son downloaded it onto my phone and said, "Here, try this," and I was hooked.

My only real complaint has been the lack of diversity in the avatars. I was excited when I found my first portrait in the Archaeology Event, an Indian woman like me! Only she didn't really look like me, she looked more Brahmin because she was so pale.

Then I saw another portrait from the event, another Indian with same pale skin. As a large and diverse culture, Indians come in a rainbow of shades, with very few glowing white like the Brahmin people represented. I propose that you add additional avatars of Indian men and women with darker skin tones to more accurately represent the true diversity of skin tones across the Indian culture.
Had you worded it this way, without the name calling, race baiting, cultural appropriation crap, had you NOT projected evil motive and intent onto others, and all the rest, you would have gotten my full support. But when you shout your own racism in the proposal right out of the gate?

Sorry, not buying into issues from your imagination.

P.S. I have just rewritten your proposal for you, you just need to put it into the proper format. My recommendation, make a graceful exit, let this thread die. Come back next week with a properly formatted proposal without the name calling, virtue signalling, race baiting, and butt hurt, and prepare for easy support with minimal fuss. Or not. Up to you.
 
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