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vote your conscience not your wallet

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
What I have been asking you is not whether or not there is a disparity ... But rather, what you intend to do about it?

If a white man commits the same crime as a black man ... And they receive the same punishment ... Should that punishment be what the white man had been getting, or what the black man had been getting before you got rid of the disparity?

You cannot answer the question with a little of both, or the cases should be judged individually ... Because they are judged individually now and that is not good enough for you, and you are comparing them to each other in order to obtain a disparity.

Also ... By what metric do you intend to determine the severity of individual crimes not directly related to the same victim, perpetrator and conditions?

What is unjust, immoral and racist about a non-white being charged by a non-white prosecutor, tried in front of a non-white judge, and majority non-white jury ... And what do the disparity numbers look like when those convictions are thrown out of the mix?
Why can't we just look at the crimes on the books and develop mandatory sentencing guidelines with no mitigating circumstances applied to lessen the sentence, etc. You're found guilty of X, your sentence is Y. End of story. Take a fresh look at everything. Some sentences will end up more lenient than the most lenient that had been given, some sentences will end up more severe than the most severe that had been given, the majority will be somewhere in between.

At the same time to make it fair, let's clean up the charging guidelines as well, removing the enhancements and discretionary tack on charges. Let's also eliminate plea bargaining for a lesser charge. If the prosecution makes the charge, their only option is to take it to trial. If the defendant is charged, they have no choice but to face the charges at trial.

Way to much wiggle room and BS enhancements, etc. have crept into the system that allows too many players in the system to practice soft racism, faking evidence, stacking charges, then coercing false testimony to force a plea deal and 'take the win'. There is a reason lady justice wears a blindfold. How about we get back to that as the standard, then we don't have to worry about one race being more or less unfairly targeted or had disparate outcomes.
 

DeletedUser

What I have been asking you is not whether or not there is a disparity ... But rather, what you intend to do about it?

If a white man commits the same crime as a black man ... And they receive the same punishment ... Should that punishment be what the white man had been getting, or what the black man had been getting before you got rid of the disparity?

You cannot answer the question with a little of both, or the cases should be judged individually ... Because they are judged individually now and that is not good enough for you, and you are comparing them to each other in order to obtain a disparity.

I never once, not once, said that judging them individually was not “good enough.”

What I said was that each person deserves to be treated equally before the law, which is the absolute bedrock of justice. Each person deserves to be tried by a jury of their peers, defended with the same quality of care regardless of race.

If convicted, the same type and severity of crime should receive the same sentence. The facts show that a person of color get handed sentences that are much harsher than a white person who is found guilty of a crime of identical severity. That is a consistent pattern, that simply, in and of itself, shows discrimination. Separate but equal was shown to be a lie long, long ago.

As the current court case in North Carolina shoes, such disparities in sentencing can be traced in part to discriminatory practices in jury selection by illegally eliminating people of color from the jury pool when the defendant is a person of color. That violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution (Batson v. Kentucky). It also appears in the instructions given to juries, through the use of racially charged language during trials, and not providing the same quality of defense to people of color that whites get.


Possible solutions include:

1) Enforce laws that clearly ban the use of racial criteria to whiten the jury, so that the jury selection is race blind. Where laws are lacking, add new protections to completely outlaw peremptory challenges by prosecutors using racially charged languages, such as “have you ever had any type of prior contact with law enforcement?” or “Do you live in a high-crime neighborhood?”. For courts that consistently break the rules, supervision can be made by State or Federal Justice Dept staff doing random checks.

2) Right now, jury selection records are difficult and time-consuming to obtain. An easy solution is to put the information, already available publicly but only in hard copy, on a searchable web site where the public and journalists can access it and look for patterns of discrimination.

E.g. the database would protect/hide the names and identified of those interviewed for the jury. Each potential juror would be identified by a number, and state which race each potential juror self-identified as. Then show the list of question asked that juror, and (if the juror was not selected) which attorney asked for that person to be excluded. (Juror A, Hispanic, rejected by the prosecuting attorney, along with the list of questions used, and any intervention made by the judge)

3) Ensure defense attorneys appointed to people of color have the same qualifications as those appointed to white defendants, and use the same level of effort to defend the accused. This could be done making the state bar records of each attorney also searchable on the same database.


I’m sure there are other solutions, but that should do for a start.……
 

DeletedUser36572

I never once, not once, said that judging them individually was not “good enough.”

What I said was that each person deserves to be treated equally before the law, which is the absolute bedrock of justice. Each person deserves to be tried by a jury of their peers, defended with the same quality of care regardless of race.

If convicted, the same type and severity of crime should receive the same sentence. The facts show that a person of color get handed sentences that are much harsher than a white person who is found guilty of a crime of identical severity. That is a consistent pattern, that simply, in and of itself, shows discrimination. Separate but equal was shown to be a lie long, long ago.

As the current court case in North Carolina shoes, such disparities in sentencing can be traced in part to discriminatory practices in jury selection by illegally eliminating people of color from the jury pool when the defendant is a person of color. That violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution (Batson v. Kentucky). It also appears in the instructions given to juries, through the use of racially charged language during trials, and not providing the same quality of defense to people of color that whites get.


Possible solutions include:

1) Enforce laws that clearly ban the use of racial criteria to whiten the jury, so that the jury selection is race blind. Where laws are lacking, add new protections to completely outlaw peremptory challenges by prosecutors using racially charged languages, such as “have you ever had any type of prior contact with law enforcement?” or “Do you live in a high-crime neighborhood?”. For courts that consistently break the rules, supervision can be made by State or Federal Justice Dept staff doing random checks.

2) Right now, jury selection records are difficult and time-consuming to obtain. An easy solution is to put the information, already available publicly but only in hard copy, on a searchable web site where the public and journalists can access it and look for patterns of discrimination.

E.g. the database would protect/hide the names and identified of those interviewed for the jury. Each potential juror would be identified by a number, and state which race each potential juror self-identified as. Then show the list of question asked that juror, and (if the juror was not selected) which attorney asked for that person to be excluded. (Juror A, Hispanic, rejected by the prosecuting attorney, along with the list of questions used, and any intervention made by the judge)

3) Ensure defense attorneys appointed to people of color have the same qualifications as those appointed to white defendants, and use the same level of effort to defend the accused. This could be done making the state bar records of each attorney also searchable on the same database.


I’m sure there are other solutions, but that should do for a start.……

You said you were not satisfied with the disparity as cases are judged individually now.

You do understand that in most cases the District Attorney is an elected position, and they provide for all the standards by which cases are actually prosecuted. You have the ability to influence how all this is administered.

In the large metro area closest to where I live, the mayor, police chief, sheriff, city marshal, and district attorney are all African American ... And their crime, prosecution, sentencing and incarceration numbers look about the same, if not worse, than what you mentioned earlier.

It’s possible unjust, immoral and racist inclinations really aren’t the problem.
 

DeletedUser36572

Why can't we just look at the crimes on the books and develop mandatory sentencing guidelines with no mitigating circumstances applied to lessen the sentence, etc. You're found guilty of X, your sentence is Y. End of story. Take a fresh look at everything. Some sentences will end up more lenient than the most lenient that had been given, some sentences will end up more severe than the most severe that had been given, the majority will be somewhere in between.

At the same time to make it fair, let's clean up the charging guidelines as well, removing the enhancements and discretionary tack on charges. Let's also eliminate plea bargaining for a lesser charge. If the prosecution makes the charge, their only option is to take it to trial. If the defendant is charged, they have no choice but to face the charges at trial.

Way to much wiggle room and BS enhancements, etc. have crept into the system that allows too many players in the system to practice soft racism, faking evidence, stacking charges, then coercing false testimony to force a plea deal and 'take the win'. There is a reason lady justice wears a blindfold. How about we get back to that as the standard, then we don't have to worry about one race being more or less unfairly targeted or had disparate outcomes.

I am really just thankful I live in a nice rural area.

Just about every household is well armed, and “high crimes” usually consist of a teenager getting stoned and plowing into your mailbox ... :)
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
I am really just thankful I live in a nice rural area.

Just about every household is well armed, and “high crimes” usually consist of a teenager getting stoned and plowing into your mailbox ... :)
I'll be leaving Southern California, moving out of state in about a week for just that thing. 140 acres about 15 minutes of dirt road outside a town of about 1,000, about a 35 minutes drive from the next biggest town of 10,000. So excited. Off grid living, here I come!
 

DeletedUser36572

I'll be leaving Southern California, moving out of state in about a week for just that thing. 140 acres about 15 minutes of dirt road outside a town of about 1,000, about a 35 minutes drive from the next biggest town of 10,000. So excited. Off grid living, here I come!

Man, you’ll love it ... A whole other world.

Funny story to break the monotony.
Not too long ago they discovered oil and gas here (the Haynesville Shale) and likewise the Parish came into a lot of tax revenue. So the Sheriff’s Department bought a helicopter, urban combat vehicle, as well as hired and trained a SWAT team ... But, we don’t really have any fricken crime here.

Not long after that, I saw the sheriff at the marina, ran up to him urgently and said ... “Damn Rodney, put the bird in the air, roll the SWAT team and fire up the grill ... One of Tuck’s cows is loose around mile marker 96 on Highway 5”.

He was not amused ... o_O
 
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plinker2

Well-Known Member
In my dealings with the general public, I can tell you that as of right now, women outnumber men 3 to 1 in obtaining concealed weapon permits. It is getting crazy in this country and wise women are taking no chances, or so it would appear.
 

DeletedUser36572

In my dealings with the general public, I can tell you that as of right now, women outnumber men 3 to 1 in obtaining concealed weapon permits. It is getting crazy in this country and wise women are taking no chances, or so it would appear.

Once we became aware of the fact that it wasn’t some kind of super-secret society, fairly easy to achieve, and remain compliant with the law and certain safety standards ... It’s really just a smart choice to allow yourself more options.
 

plinker2

Well-Known Member
You are so correct. With all that is happening right now, it is a good choice. Second best idea is ALWAYS be aware of your surroundings. Stay alert and vigilant,even in public, and PRACTICE!!
 

DeletedUser36572

You are so correct. With all that is happening right now, it is a good choice. Second best idea is ALWAYS be aware of your surroundings. Stay alert and vigilant,even in public, and PRACTICE!!

Some of the most valuable things you can learn in the training are situation awareness and the ability to make a valued real time risk assessment ... And in a lot of cases have nothing to do with actually handling your firearm.

Edit to Topic:
To make a conscious decision to lower your exposure to victim status, and assume the cost in acquiring a quality firearm and training ... Would be putting your wallet on the table, and about the strongest vote you could possibly cast in favor of gun rights.
 
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DeletedUser36572

You know, while working as Quality Consultant with a pharmaceutical company, I was required to physical confirm the destruction of $23 million worth of finished product (I had to verify the contents and watch it being incinerated) under recall because some nit-wit in El Paso forgot to put his initials on a temperature verification chart for two hours between 10 and midnight one evening.

It was life saving plasma products, provided to those with immune defieciencies. You have no fricken idea what pharmaceutical companies go through to ensure the product a nurse sticks in your vein doesn’t kill you in an instant ... Nor the cost, product loss, and replacement time associated with one almost irrelevant common human oversight.

The company did the right thing, the staff had the integrity to be honest about the mistake and didn’t falsify the records ... How many of you work for a company that would do that and willingly take that loss?
 

Lannister the Rich

Well-Known Member
You know, while working as Quality Consultant with a pharmaceutical company, I was required to physical confirm the destruction of $23 million worth of finished product (I had to verify the contents and watch it being incinerated) under recall because some nit-wit in El Paso forgot to put his initials on a temperature verification chart for two hours between 10 and midnight one evening.

It was life saving plasma products, provided to those with immune defieciencies. You have no fricken idea what pharmaceutical companies go through to ensure the product a nurse sticks in your vein doesn’t kill you in an instant ... Nor the cost, product loss, and replacement time associated with one almost irrelevant common human oversight.

The company did the right thing, the staff had the integrity to be honest about the mistake and didn’t falsify the records ... How many of you work for a company that would do that and willingly take that loss?
$23 million? That's an auditing oversight. That may seem like a lot of money to you, but it isn't to these large companies. Also, that gives them the right to upcharge the price by 1000% because...? My point is that if it's a life saving product, profit should be minimized to a great degree (not eliminated, just not turning a substantially large profit off of life). Generally, these kinds of products are not genericized. Meaning, they're the only items like it on the market, market which is entirely captivated by the product because it wants to live.
 

DeletedUser36572

$23 million? That's an auditing oversight. That may seem like a lot of money to you, but it isn't to these large companies. Also, that gives them the right to upcharge the price by 1000% because...? My point is that if it's a life saving product, profit should be minimized to a great degree (not eliminated, just not turning a substantially large profit off of life). Generally, these kinds of products are not genericized. Meaning, they're the only items like it on the market, market which is entirely captivated by the product because it wants to live.

$23 million is $23 million any way you slice it.

The product didn’t have a generic version because it is difficult to acquire the raw materials (human plasma that requires extensive front end testing and overhead) difficult to produce (extreme parameters in processing and storage), and the company subsidized patients that couldn’t afford to pay.

Not to mention that it wasn’t an auditing oversight, one of the company’s Quality Managers identified the error while I was standing next them, helping them prepare for an upcoming FDA audit. They found the error and self-reported it. I had to watch them destroy the product, because I was “third party”. Since I wasn’t an employee and didn’t work directly for the company, I could inform the FDA on the disposition of the product without the suspicion of being coerced into lying about it by the Corporate Managers.

I only mentioned the episode because I am impressed by what they did, and there is no way you can deminish their integrity.
 

Lannister the Rich

Well-Known Member
$23 million is $23 million any way you slice it.

The product didn’t have a generic version because it is difficult to acquire the raw materials (human plasma that requires extensive front end testing and overhead) difficult to produce (extreme parameters in processing and storage), and the company subsidized patients that couldn’t afford to pay.

Not to mention that it wasn’t an auditing oversight, one of the company’s Quality Managers identified the error while I was standing next them, helping them prepare for an upcoming FDA audit. They found the error and self-reported it. I had to watch them destroy the product, because I was “third party”. Since I wasn’t an employee and didn’t work directly for the company, I could inform the FDA on the disposition of the product without the suspicion of being coerced into lying about it by the Corporate Managers.

I only mentioned the episode because I am impressed by what they did, and there is no way you can deminish their integrity.

Of course, but you also have to consider that had several people ended up dying from the product, and that were found out, they'd have a lot more problems than wasting $23 million worth of product. It's a bit of a sunk cost.

The auditing thing was just an example of oversight.
 

DeletedUser36572

Of course, but you also have to consider that had several people ended up dying from the product, and that were found out, they'd have a lot more problems than wasting $23 million worth of product. It's a bit of a sunk cost.

The auditing thing was just an example of oversight.

I hear what you are saying, but there was honestly no indication of a temperature variation during the two hours. The checks both prior to and after the ones missed recorded exactly 20.3 degrees lower than the requirement (which was good), and since we were dealing with El Paso in the Summer, and temperatures in excess of 40 degrees below zero, there is no way the freezers could have increased 20 degrees and cooled back down in two hours.

There is no way around it ... They simply failed to meet their SOP requirements and volunteered to destroy the product on a technicality.

Edit:
I also mentioned it because it was a big deal and very few people know about it, because the media doesn’t report it when pharmaceutical companies go above and beyond to do the right thing. You only hear nightmare stories of suffering and profit because that fits their agenda.

I had the opportunity to work with a lot of corporations in a plethora of industries. While there are some common products you won’t ever see me using (not allowed to disclose those) ... There are some large corporations that are responsible, proactive, and concerned about the welfare of their employees, consumers and community.
 
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RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
$23 million? That's an auditing oversight. That may seem like a lot of money to you, but it isn't to these large companies. Also, that gives them the right to upcharge the price by 1000% because...? My point is that if it's a life saving product, profit should be minimized to a great degree (not eliminated, just not turning a substantially large profit off of life). Generally, these kinds of products are not genericized. Meaning, they're the only items like it on the market, market which is entirely captivated by the product because it wants to live.
Are you talking talking about the Epi-Pen issue? I'm sure the guy who bought the company had no idea that expired pens exposed to UV light breaks down to become Adrenochome. I'm sure he didn't buy the company and raise the price 1000% when he discovered the true value of Epi-Pens/Adrenochrome on the black market.

No, I don't agree with what he did.

The question is, where is the demand for Adrenochrome coming from? Are there other sources of Adrenochome?
 
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