GVG was half dead and now need to compete with the new kid on the block(GBG）

[Flavius Belisarius]

At least open a discussion thread to let players talk about Good, Bad, Ugly aspects of GvG and exempt it from DNS.
Maybe you could call it The Speakers Corner.
I suspect that INNO's refusal to upgrade/modify/change GvG is related to the inherent problem of re-coding without disrupting the overall game.
Many game features are connected to GvG battles.
Yet as JB Goode has stated there probably is a small percentage of long time players who still like it even though there are other features.
I don't think it needs more rewards, but perhaps the new BETA PvP could somehow shed some light on a future for GvG.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

I suspect that INNO's refusal to upgrade/modify/change GvG is related to the inherent problem of re-coding without disrupting the overall game.

Doubtful. As I stated earlier, it is more related to the early, untimely death of the lead game designer. That is when Inno basically abandoned GvG.

I don't think it needs more rewards, but perhaps the new BETA PvP could somehow shed some light on a future for GvG.

Keep repeating to yourself: "There is no future for GvG. There is no future for GvG." Maybe at some point it will sink in for you and other dreamers that Inno will not be doing anything with GvG except letting it wither and die a natural and long overdue demise. They have stated this on numerous occasions, and the record of the game over the last 5-6 years bears out their statements. Just give it up.

 

[Flavius Belisarius]

Doubtful. As I stated earlier, it is more related to the early, untimely death of the lead game designer. That is when Inno basically abandoned GvG.

Keep repeating to yourself: "There is no future for GvG. There is no future for GvG." Maybe at some point it will sink in for you and other dreamers that Inno will not be doing anything with GvG except letting it wither and die a natural and long overdue demise. They have stated this on numerous occasions, and the record of the game over the last 5-6 years bears out their statements. Just give it up.

“If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack.”
― Winston S. Churchill
“Keep a little fire burning; however small, however hidden.”
― Cormac McCarthy
“Did you hear about the rose that grew from a crack in the concrete? Proving nature's laws wrong, it learned to walk without having feet. Funny, it seems to by keeping it's dreams; it learned to breathe fresh air. Long live the rose that grew from concrete when no one else even cared.”
― Tupac Shakur
“Never lose hope. Storms make people stronger and never last forever.”
― Roy T. Bennett

 

[qaccy]

As an aside, I wonder how Anwar would feel about being posthumously used as a scapegoat for why GvG was 'abandoned'. Happens every time this topic comes up.

 

[Flavius Belisarius]

Turn up the volume on the Speaker's Corner and we'd know!!!

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

As an aside, I wonder how Anwar would feel about being posthumously used as a scapegoat for why GvG was 'abandoned'. Happens every time this topic comes up.

And I wonder how he would feel about his successors totally abandoning it.

 

[85gt]

I can`t play a game on some little screen, PC for me and if GvG goes I`ll find a better game to play, GbG is a mess of complaints from little guilds wanting to get big rewards like big guilds and the individual small player grows at a much slower pace than the big guys.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

-

 

[Fishercat.]

Keep repeating to yourself: "There is no future for GvG. There is no future for GvG." Maybe at some point it will sink in for you and other dreamers that Inno will not be doing anything with GvG except letting it wither and die a natural and long overdue demise. They have stated this on numerous occasions, and the record of the game over the last 5-6 years bears out their statements. Just give it up.

Genuine question, not rhetorical challenge:

On my home server, GvG is critical for guild standings. If that's universal, how will GvG die a natural death? If ambitious guilds must have a strong GvG presence, it's never gonna die.

 

[RazorbackPirate]

Genuine question, not rhetorical challenge:

On my home server, GvG is critical for guild standings. If that's universal, how will GvG die a natural death? If ambitious guilds must have a strong GvG presence, it's never gonna die.

It dies more every day. With no more data other than Inno's statements, Mobile players are growing art a rate significantly faster than PC players. That means each year less and less new players even have access.

Therefore, those players who play GvG are by and large the longest time players in the game. That also means they're the oldest, and quite possibly the highest rate of, retiring accounts for simply demographic reasons. Quite literally a dying breed.

Given these two trends, the day is coming when then number of GvG players and the revenue from them will be smaller than the cost required to maintain that code and pay for the data pipes required to process the GvG commands. That's a money loser. That's the point that the wise financial move is to end GvG, forever removing it from the game.

Sure, Inno risks losing the remaining GvG players, but when the revenue from those players becomes small enough, it won't matter. Then GvG won't be crucial for guild standings, there will be no GvG points to contribute.

For Inno, GvG is a math problem. Plain and simple. The rest matters only to players.

 

[Fishercat.]

Interesting. My home server is Birka, which opened October, 2019. The demographics surprised me, in that it seems like a lot of the most active players are older than I would have expected. If it's representative, a lot of FoE players are retirees, who're probably more likely than younger players to prefer larger screens.

Whales are attracted to top guilds, and GvG is required to get to the top. I think that as long as success in GvG is weighted as heavily as it is, Inno's most profitable customers will be involved in GvG, and thus, likely to raise a stink if it dies. IIRC, that's what happened the first time they tried to kill it. Why would that not happen again, if they keep weighting it the same for guild rankings?

 

[RazorbackPirate]

Whales are attracted to top guilds, and GvG is required to get to the top. I think that as long as success in GvG is weighted as heavily as it is, Inno's most profitable customers will be involved in GvG, and thus, likely to raise a stink if it dies. IIRC, that's what happened the first time they tried to kill it. Why would that not happen again, if they keep weighting it the same for guild rankings?

When did Inno try to 'kill GvG the first time?' Must have been before I started playing.

The rest of your statement is conjecture with no numbers to support it. You have no idea where the bulk of diamonds are being spent and how much of Inno's revenue comes from that small 5% of the customer base.

I play on PC, I've never been a whale, I've been in many top GvG guilds, and I've never touched GvG. Not living in the Eastern or Central US time zones, the timing of reset doesn't work even I did have a desire for GvG, which I don't.

 

[Fishercat.]

When did Inno try to 'kill GvG the first time?'

I might have misremembered something I read, which is why I said "IIRC."

The rest of your statement is conjecture with no numbers to support it. You have no idea where the bulk of diamonds are being spent and how much of Inno's revenue comes from that small 5% of the customer base.

Sure is! And no, I don't know how much of their revenue comes from that 5%, but I do know that those 5% are far from evenly distributed throughout the server. Top guilds [on Birka] are full of whales. Again, my conjectures are based on what I know about top guilds on my own home server, which I have no particularly good reason to believe is reasonably representative of Inno's business overall.

I play on PC, I've never been a whale, I've been in many top GvG guilds, and I've never touched GvG. Not living in the Eastern or Central US time zones, the timing of reset doesn't work even I did have a desire for GvG, which I don't.

So.. you're not a whale and don't personally care about GvG, despite having been in many top GvG guilds. Were those guilds whale-heavy, and do you think your GvG-playing guildmates would raise a stink if it went away?

 

[icarusethan]

I play on PC, I've never been a whale, I've been in many top GvG guilds, and I've never touched GvG. Not living in the Eastern or Central US time zones, the timing of reset doesn't work even I did have a desire for GvG, which I don't.

dude, with your city you cant play gvg anyway even if you try, so quit putting your narrative on others, you are not even qualified to be called an active player. i guess that's why those" top GVG guilds" never tried to keep you

 

[RazorbackPirate]

So.. you're not a whale and don't personally care about GvG, despite having been in many top GvG guilds. Were those guilds whale-heavy, and do you think your GvG-playing guildmates would raise a stink if it went away?

As you say, top guilds are filled with paying customers, many paying insane amounts of money. The guilds I was in were no different. However, many also had multiple diamond farms not paying insane amounts of money, the bulk of the members like me, playing for free.

What I also saw in those top guilds when GBG was introduced is an almost immediate switch to Battlegrounds as the main focus, especially the top GvG players who, with their already crazy high Attack/Defense numbers, suddenly had the ability to make insane amount of FPs. About the same time, the guild threads went from, "Everybody ready for reset?" to, "Who can help at reset?" Anecdotal to be sure, but hard to believe aberrational.

Yes, I think my GvG playing guildmates will scream bloody murder when GvG goes away. I also think of those who will talk a good game, less than 10% will quit over it, especially the whales. I can't imagine too many of them rage quitting over the loss of GvG and forever walking away from their multiple tens of thousands of dollars/euros investment.

Let's say 10% of them do rage quit. That's a half a percent of the player base. How much of the revenue does that .5% of players make up? Only Inno knows, and you can bet they track it. Eventually, I see one of two things happening.

1. Natural attrition of GvG players makes it unprofitable to continue to maintain the code and and Inno kills it.
2. Inno develops a new feature who's code technically interferes with GvG and Inno kills it.

Inno's last statement of GvG was they would be keeping it around, but would make no further investments in it. At the point further investment in GvG becomes necessary to keep it around, GvG disappears.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

Genuine question, not rhetorical challenge:

On my home server, GvG is critical for guild standings. If that's universal, how will GvG die a natural death? If ambitious guilds must have a strong GvG presence, it's never gonna die.

You really think there are that many players who care about guild standings? I have been in dozens of guilds over my 6 years of playing, and it has literally only been mentioned to me in the context of recruitment. Once in a guild, it was never discussed as a goal. And I've been in big guilds and small over the years. I would venture to guess that only the top 5 or so guilds really care much about guild rankings. You apparently only have experience with these top guilds, not the ones down the chain. The ones below the very top ones know how locked up GvG (and now GBG) is by the top guilds and how little chance they have of breaking in and "running with the big dogs". That's why there's so much passion about changing or not changing GBG. Because it provides lucrative personal rewards that players actually care about, not the intangible and literally worthless reward of guild standings.

Your problem, it seems to me, is that your insulated game life has made it impossible for you to conceive of a game life without GvG, or the pursuit of guild ranking. I and many, many other players can tell you that there is abundant game life in FoE completely outside of GvG.

As far as whales being in top GvG guilds, that may be true but misleading. They are not only in top GvG guilds. And from what I've seen in 6 years, most spending happens in and around events. And this is probably more true now than ever. Anyone spending tons of money on GvG is an idiot. It is literally the very worst value for your dollar in this game. There is almost no tangible game reward for playing GvG. In addition, if someone is ambitious enough to care about GvG and pursuit of guild ranking, they are going to have enormous attack boosts and a high level Traz. With the GvG defense boosts topping out at 75%, what reason would they have to spend on GvG? By myself, I can go into FE GvG right now and fight as long as I want with only a modest attack boost and a middling level Traz. I run out of targets long before my supply of units ever gets so much as a dent.

In any case, you and I don't have access to raw data. Playing data or financial data. Inno does. And they have said repeatedly that they will not do anything but the barest maintenance on GvG. Ever. And they've been saying it for years. Again, anyone spending tons of money on GvG is an idiot. If GvG does go away at some point, what will they have to show for it? To quote Edwin Starr, "Absolutely nothing".

 

[RazorbackPirate]

dude, with your city you cant play gvg anyway even if you try, so quit putting your narrative on others, you are not even qualified to be called an active player. i guess that's why those" top GVG guilds" never tried to keep you

I never had an interest in GvG, I live in a time zone that makes reset impossible for me, so I never developed a city for GvG. Why would I build a city to compete in something I'll never play? That would be dumb. I'm not dumb.

The only fight GB you have that I don't have is Alcatraz. Why have I yet to build Alcatraz? I have yet to need Alcatraz. Now, let's break down the rest. Personally, I'm seeing nothing special, but your hutzpah. Call me not impressed.

GB	Razor	Icarus
Zeus	80	61
CoA	80	10
CdM	80	68
AO	39	62
Kraken	15	59
HC	58	58
TA	49	17
Total A/D	598/392	???
Age	Industrial	Oceanic
City Age	3 years, 2 months	???

I'm also not a diamond player, which you obviously are. Those three Druid Temples don't come free. And while your diamonds may come from multiple diamond worlds, you're still a diamond player, something I'm not. Also, care to explain these charts?



I understand the stretch of inactivity, it's the difference in advancement pre and post break I'm struggling with. Over 1000 fights a day since your return in January? Are these the markings of another click bot offender? You cheating @icarusethan?

Every guild I left, I left. My choice. When a guild no longer works for me and my style, I find a different guild. Top guilds don't work for me and my style. Let's just say, not my peeps.

And besides, what does any of that have to do with Inno's math problem?

 

[Fishercat.]

You really think there are that many players who care about guild standings?

That many = high percentage of players overall? No. That many = high percentage of influential players in a social game? Yes.

Your problem, it seems to me, is that your insulated game life has made it impossible for you to conceive of a game life without GvG, or the pursuit of guild ranking. I and many, many other players can tell you that there is abundant game life in FoE completely outside of GvG.

So can I. I don't play GvG. I'm a guild leader of one of the top guilds on my server, so yeah, my viewpoint is absolutely skewed towards caring about pursuit of guild ranking. Better ranking helps attract and retain more and better players, which improves GbG performance, which improves personal rewards for everyone in the guild, lather, rinse, repeat.

But, in fact, since my guild has moved from a sometimes in the top 20 guild to always in the top 20, usually in the top 10, and sometimes in the top 5 during the not quite a year I've been with them, I know that the top guilds do not have GvG and GBG all locked up.

Anyone spending tons of money on GvG is an idiot.

Um.. who said anything about spending money on GvG? I said that players who spend tons of money are attracted to top-ranked guilds, which stay top-ranked because they do GvG. Your jump from A to Q is worthy of the underpants gnomes.

 

[RazorbackPirate]

So can I. I don't play GvG. I'm a guild leader of one of the top guilds on my server, so yeah, my viewpoint is absolutely skewed towards caring about pursuit of guild ranking. Better ranking helps attract and retain more and better players, which improves GbG performance, which improves personal rewards for everyone in the guild, lather, rinse, repeat.

Which means GvG has simply become a means to an end to increase GBG performance. You need to maintain the Rank points simply because other guilds are. When it all goes away for everyone, what changes? Not much, so why does it matter if it goes away?

How many of your members are going to quit the game, not just complain, actually quit the game over GvG's disappearance? Any of your Whales actually gonna walk away from their $$$ cities over it?

 

[Fishercat.]

Our members? Not a lot. But we're neither a whale-heavy guild, nor one that has an extremely strong GvG presence at present. We just know that one is necessary if we want to advance.

I do know whales that really, really like GvG. A lot. And I think their opinions matter to Inno.