22 minimum wage. Will it kill many small business?

Discussion in 'Debate Hall' started by LacLongQuan, Mar 19, 2013.

  1. Dominotx711

    Dominotx711 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    I was not referring to those making minimum wage. I was referring to those not.

    The skilled labor SHOULD make more than unskilled labor..period end of story. AND the distance between the two should remain at the same percentage. A person making minimum wage will only make minimum wage until their first review barring they suck at their jobs. They should not get an increase just because, IF the increase is not going to cross over into those with skilled labor that years and hours of tuition have been put forth to gain the knowledge.

    yeah we saw how well your logic panned out when the economy tanked with the rise in payroll taxes yes? The unemployment went down yes? Your logic is illogical.

    Since WHEN??


    People CAN better their circumstances if the drive is there....it is always a choice not to do so but to settle with the status quo. Those that make the sacrifice should not have to pay for those who do not. And a person working minimum wage does not need their one house, cell phone, big screen TV, gaming system etc etc. They can share and blend budgets. You know back in the day, having the largest house and moving out of the family compound wasn't all that important. That is a rather new ideal. You can't afford to live on your own and have all your gadgets? don't. figure it out...and improve your circumstances...because can't isn't a word it is an action....a mentality.
    and yet having been in HR for many years I can tell you the work ethic of today is much lower than it was as recent as 10 years ago. And you miss a key point...raising the minimum wage won't even put a cramp in the rear end of a "corporation" but it WILL cripple the mom and pop.

    Jesus tells us to care for the sick, old and children. If you don't fall into those categories he'd tell you to get off your butt and make it happen.
     
    TheAnimal likes this.
  2. TheAnimal

    TheAnimal Guest


    I'm a retired Trucker and when NAFTA was passed, it hurt the Economy in ways that the Government never looked at. Once jobs started moving overseas, because you could get someone in China or India to do the same thing for 1/4 of the cost, jobs were lost here.


    Once jobs moved overseas, the price for goods steadily rose higher and higher.





    OK... Let's assume McDonalds is forced to pay it's employees $10 an hour. Most, if not all, McDonalds are franchised. So one of your neighbors is the owner of that particular Franchise. In order for him/her to be able to meet payroll, pay bills and try to make a profit, they would either have to terminate a few employees and make the remaining employees pickup the slack OR start charging you $10 for a Big Mac. The same would happen to ALL the small businesses that would have to pay their unskilled labor, either that or shut down completely.





    They will spend more because everything will cost more in order to pay the added expense of paying higher wages. Read LacLongQuan's post about Pizza Hut.





    This is so wrong on many levels. Read my statements above and tell me that you believe prices WON'T go up once minimum wage is raised. Every time Minimum Wage has increased, so has the price of goods and housing.


    I used to smoke, I know, bad example, but still. I used to pay less than 50 cents a pack back in the 70's when minimum wage was less than $3.50 an hour. Every time the wage went up, so did the price for a pack of cigarette. I don't know what the cost is now, seeing as I quit a good while back, but I bet it's higher than $5 a pack.


    As I've stated, once Minimum Wage goes up, prices will follow and the poor that you talk about will STILL be in the same situation that they are now.





    And that's the problem in a nutshell. Anyone that takes an entry level job knows that they are just that, entry level. Who in their right mind would pay someone $10+ an hour to flip burgers. Those are jobs for the teenagers that still live at home with their parents. Anyone who takes one of these jobs thinking that they can support their family with the income needs to start seeing a shrink.





    By reading this statement, I can see that you have NO business experience and the only thing you do know about a business is what the liberals tell you. I owned my own business. Anytime I had a cost increase, I passed it along to the consumer, as ALL businesses do. We are in business to provide goods to the consumer AND to make a profit. Why would ANYONE be in any type of business if they didn't make a profit. Raising the minimum wage is an increase in expenses and WILL be passed along to the consumer. If I can't pass the expense along, then someone has to go. That's the same for ANY business, and you believing otherwise doesn't change that in the least.



    Show me where this actually happens. I've been in business for the past 30 years and I can tell you from experience that who ever came up with this slogan has NEVER owned his own business.


    If you're not employed, you don't have money to trickle up or down. Trickle, that's a bunch of bull. If I don't have what the people want, I don't have a business and my employees don't have a job. If I have what the people want, but charge outrageous prices for it, I don't make sales and eventually go out of business. But, if I have what the public wants and can give it to them at an affordable price then we have the economy moving.


    Let's give you an easy scenario. You own a small restaurant. You only operate 2 shifts. Each shift has 2 waitresses, 1 cook, 1 dishwasher and 1 cashier. 5 people per shift, 10 people total plus yourself.

    You are paying all 10 people the present minimum wage and you are taking home the same amount they are after you pay ALL your bills, taxes and other business related expenses. Now, the government tells you that you have to give your employees a pay raise of $2 per hour. So now you have to pay out an extra $800 a week, the equivalent of 2.5 people which means you don't make any money and 1.5 people have to be let go if you plan on keeping your prices the same so you don't lose customers. So your statement that prices don't go sky high just cost 2.5 people their jobs cause I'm not going home without some type of profit.

    So jobs WILL plummet if businesses try to keep their prices competitive and still make a profit.
     
  3. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2013
    If you own your own restaurant and you can't find a way to make more then the minimum wage you should probably just get out of the business and leave it to those who know how to run a business at a reasonable profit.
     
  4. TheAnimal

    TheAnimal Guest

    I was using that as a simple Scenario. The business that I owned was a trucking company and the same would apply to that also. Fuel costs go up and so does the charge to move your freight per mile. I used the restaurant instead of a trucking company because there are more variables involved with trucking than with a restaurant. And contrary to your statement, there are hundreds of small mom and pop restaurants throughout the country that the owners are barely making enough to survive off of due to payroll, business taxes, bills and other business related expenses that have gone up over the past few years. And now many of them face closing down because of ObamaCare going into effect in January 2014, or with the hold in place, January 2015. That's one thing that makes me feel better about selling my company and retiring before the proverbial * hits the fan.

    And if you have never owned your own business, you don't know about the extra taxes, expenses and bills that the owner has to pay in order to keep the business running. Just because they look like they are making big bucks, many are struggling to make ends meet. You only see the consumer side of any business, but once you've been on the owner side, there's a whole different world that's waiting with it's hand out...
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 26, 2013
  5. sirerik

    sirerik Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    “If you own your own restaurant and you can't find a way to make more then the minimum wage you should probably just get out of the business and leave it to those who know how to run a business at a reasonable profit.”
    Only a small percentage of small businesses actually make a profit and those who do generally spend years getting there. It does not matter how many articles you have read or what a professor told you, nobody has a clue what it takes to create a successful small business until you have. Many small business owners make less than minimum wage considering the hours spent building a business. Small businesses fold everyday and the void is often filled by a large corporation with the resources to force wages down. What is a “reasonable profit”?

    “And if you have never owned your own business, you don't know about the extra taxes, expenses and bills that the owner has to pay in order to keep the business running. Just because they look like they are making big bucks, many are struggling to make ends meet. You only see the consumer side of any business, but once you've been on the owner side, there's a whole different world that's waiting with it's hand out...”
    So true!
     
  6. Dadnking

    Dadnking Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Looking over the posts here, reinforces my belief there was a reason that they quit teaching economics in schools. There is only one segment of society that benefits from an increase of "minimum wage". Government.

    Any cost associated from the increase to business, WILL be passed on. Any gain in spending power from those that received the increase will be negated by the business pass on.

    Government gains through the increase of "non-refundable taxes" FICA medicare etc. It generates interest free "loans", due to the with-holding of "refundable" taxes. It also changes the overall demographics of wage earners. Folks that were earning more than the old, but less than or equal to the new are now "Minimum wage earners". Creating an even larger segment of society that requires Government assistance.

    I have seen folks question the idea of a business owner making no more than minimum wage. WHY is that? A first generation "owner" functions as owner, manager and employee. With all the obligations of each. They may show an income of 40k or more annually, but consider most are working 14-16 hours a day, turns it into a minimum wage or below job. Many business owners have started and failed numerous times.

    In the past an invention of a new technology, and more recent, a new Intellectual property, may gain a massive influx of revenue, and thereby "wealth". Most wealth is accumulated slowly. Built upon generations of labor, sacrifice, education and management. A massive, mandatory increase in earnings is not the way to better the lifestyle of those receiving the "benefit". Only a change in the perception of wealth will create the opportunities to achieve wealth. Wealth should be better defined as what you pass along to those who follow, rather than what you can purchase for immediate gratification.

    But getting back to the idea of minimum wage. BAH HUMBUG. The minimum wage should be zero, what you earn setting on your rather scrawny behind after being hungry for a while. Your wage should be what you help to produce not by the time you spend on the premise. Rather old fashioned I know.
     
  7. Sir Rusty Nut

    Sir Rusty Nut New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2013
    Long answer: I have a hard time believing it will kill off small businesses in their entirety. The minimum wage in Australia is $15 an hour for fast food workers. My family is a small business, I am an independent contractor, I am (was, my last day is tomorrow) paid $15 an hour. I do not get 40 hours per week; the most I get is 25 or maybe 30 on a good week; but the small business I work for has no problem getting by and paying the bills.

    The growing discrepancy between workers wages and company's profits has skyrocketed since the late 1990's. Corporate profits are at all time highs, while worker wages remain stagnant. CEO compensation seems to tie in nicely with the profits of their corporations, however. It would seem that the bosses believe that when times are good, they get to take the credit, and when times are bad, the worker gets to bear the brunt.

    Worker productivity has hit an all-time high. Workers are constantly being asked to do more, within the same time frames, and often with less. In a recovery like we are currently seeing, where job growth isn't keeping up with economic growth, workers will stress themselves out to the maximum in order to hold on to their jobs.



    Short answer: I think raising the minimum wage is long overdue. I would personally set it at $10.
     
    Last edited: Aug 9, 2013
  8. sirerik

    sirerik Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    Sounds logical at first until we look at the next level and the unintended consequences. Artificially increasing the cost of unskilled labor encourages business to seek ways to offset that cost through outsourcing, supply manipulation and technology. Large corporations have an advantage when it comes to offsetting labor costs, we see it with automated ordering or checkout which is popping up at large retailers and fast food. Many regulations which appear to hurt business are in reality good for large corporations because they make small business less competitive. In short, the views you stated actually help large corporations and CEOs while reducing entry level jobs. Like so many “government” programs, this ends up hurting the people who are supposed to be helped.
     
  9. Kingster

    Kingster Guest

    In modern society everyone, without exception, should be entitled to some quality of life. If someone works on slave wages, working all hours, several jobs, just to make ends meet that is unacceptable. A fair day's work for a fair day's pay should be the basic tenet. Any argument against that is inhumane and nefarious. If legislation is required to enforce same due to all the reasons put forward then so be it and business etc needs to suck it up.
     
  10. sirerik

    sirerik Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    Apparently Marxism is alive and well. One major flaw with Marxism is human nature, removing reward from work eventually collapses the system. Given the choice between playing video games all day or working many will choose to be unproductive. Marxism always ends in mass poverty, fear and death, many would consider this path to be inhumane and nefarious.
    “Some people regard private enterprise as a predatory tiger to be shot. Others look on it as a cow they can milk. Not enough people see it as a healthy horse, pulling a sturdy wagon.”
    Winston Churchill
     
  11. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2013
    sirerik, after quoting Kingster:

    So, sirerik is arguing that a fair day's work for a fair day's pay is Marxism and will collapse the system. Nice. I see the American dream is alive and well.
     
  12. Kingster

    Kingster Guest

    I am not a Marxist. I don't know how you deduced that from my post. Egalitarian, maybe. I believe in equal rights. How could you not? That I don't understand.
     
  13. Floydd

    Floydd Guest

    I think the government should let go of all of its restrictions on businesses, and get rid of the minimum wage.

    HOWEVER:
    The government should rate businesses on various factors, and force businesses to clearly label these ratings.
    Ratings would include grades on social responsibility, environmental safety, management and executive pay compared to worker pay.
    Then let consumers decide which businesses they want to use.
    And workers can be better informed as well.
     
  14. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2013
    Go look at some history books about working conditions in factories in the 1800s. The world already tried the whole "let the market decide" and the society you end up with is an unbelievably horrible hellscape. No matter how bad you may think things are with regulations on business, they were far, far worse without.

    And no, letting workers know exactly how horrible the hellscape is doesn't help. Businesses will keep making things worse and worse, and the idea that workers, as individuals, are able to work collectively without any kind of organization (such as strong labor unions, or the government) to help them work collectively, is a complete fantasy (and proven to be a fantasy by history). When workers try to leave a factory for better working conditions they just start suffering "unfortunate accidents" in the kind of world you describe, usually brought on by the very police you might expect to protect them from those accidents.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2013
  15. sirerik

    sirerik Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    Kingster, I too believe in equal rights and fair pay for fair work, many claim to believe the same but their words and actions contradict what they say. The only entities in a position to decide what is fair when it comes to pay are the seller and buyer of labor. Minimum wage laws restrict buyers and sellers from negotiating a mutually beneficial agreement. Sometimes it is in the seller’s best interest to work for free, it is called investment. If you are stuck in a low wage job with little hope of improving your situation, working for free on your day off can increase your knowledge and experience. Electricians and plumbers tend to make a decent wage, working with one for free can open doors. Paying for formal education can be expensive while working for free only costs time.
     
  16. sirerik

    sirerik Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    Having government rate business sounds good but in reality it would create more paperwork and fees. I have made a conscious effort to use small business whenever possible. When I need bodywork done on my vehicle I will choose who to use by thinking of my customers and friends first. I am a volunteer firefighter and my wife volunteers at the food bank and animal shelter. Between our customers and friends we have made through being active in our community, finding small business owners is easy. Sure it tends to cost me a little more to use small business, I believe it pays off by keeping cash flow local. Keeping it local and small also funds our schools, first responders, etc.
     
  17. Floydd

    Floydd Guest

    I agree with you that those conditions were bad. However, the modern regulations have gotten very overburdening, and at the same time, the unions have gone so far from their original goals of safe working conditions.

    The core problem with the American economy is the messed up Healthcare system. If that problem was solved, there'd be a lot less concern over working wages, since wages wouldn't have to cover the crazy high costs of healthcare.
     
  18. gwalchmai

    gwalchmai Well-Known Member

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    Mar 25, 2013
  19. sirerik

    sirerik Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2013
    That is a cute picture. I wish it was that easy, let’s just raise our minimum wage to 16 bucks an hour and life will be awesome. Unfortunately between idiologs, partisans and cronies, it is hard to get an unbiased presentation of facts. Australia has an interesting concept of minimum wage, it is based on age, level of training and disability. http://www.wageindicator.org/main/salary/minimum-wage/australia . Some other factors to look at is the level of economic freedom http://www.heritage.org/index/ranking . One aspect both Ds and Rs tend to misrepresent are taxes, the difference between what it costs your employer to employ you for an hour and what you can buy with that hour’s worth of wages. The gap between the cost to employ and purchasing power is huge, there is a reason why the underground economy is so large. Many flea markets have a guy selling food cheap, ever wonder where it comes from. Excessive regulations take a huge toll on all of us, about $15,000 a year per household according to WSJ.
    The truly heartbreaking issue we are facing in the US is the myth of Ds are for big Gov and Rs are for big B, the reality both parties are for big G and B, just different aspects and we the subjects fall for it. We gripe about CEO pay and remain ignorant of politicians who become millionaires by being politicians. We gripe about food stamps and remain ignorant about the same program which pays farmers who don’t farm. Etc etc etc. Plato summed it up well ““The price of apathy towards public affairs is to be ruled by evil men”.
     
  20. Dadnking

    Dadnking Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2012
    Bold emphasis is mine. Where does the idea of entitlement enter this discussion? Compensation for labor is based upon the skill required to SUCCESSFULLY complete the tasks. IF, for example, only 1 in a million folks were able to SUCCESSFULLY place a spatula under a ground beef patty and then complete the complicated wrist and forearm motion to place the uncooked side on the griddle, I am sure that those persons would be well compensated for their skill. However that is not the case.

    The whole idea behind a "minimum wage job" is to establish yourself in the job market. A stepping stone to better higher paying jobs. By showing you have the ability to show up at the times required, completing the tasks assigned, and continuing to advance yourself through education and learning new skills, you no longer have to depend upon these minimum wage jobs.

    Even with economic setbacks, a properly motivated persons, can and do, move lateraly and upward, into new skill set jobs. Rather than treating a "safety net" like a hammock and offering folks a pillow, we should encourage ongoing and continued education, even when they have a "job".

    I see that Kingster mentions "slave wages". He needs to go and study what that really means. Slaves were valuable property. They had value and most owners realized that care had to be given them. They had to be fed well, clothed and housed. Do not take this as defending slavery. But their value was recognized. The thing a modern wage earner has that they did not is choice. You chose to keep a skill set that only pays minimum wage then that is all you earn. You fail to demonstrate an ability to to work with the guidelines of a minimum wage job, why should you get a job that pays more? You chose not to care for your own health and well being, because the newest playstation game or recreational drug is so much more fun than presenting yourself in respectable dress,and health, why should you earn more?

    The ONLY entitlement you have in this life, is the fact you will die. While the ultimate time and circumstance of that event is not entirely under your control, your choices do influence it.

    The only way I know to effectively increase the minimum wage is to DECREASE the pool of folks that are in a position to accept a position paying the established "minimum wage".
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2013

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