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Changelog 1.124 Feedback

DeletedUser31440

It used to say (on the DC panel) that if you failed, you'd get a -1. That part has been removed and only shows a +1 for success. I have chosen a chest each day and skipped several. It hasn't taken me back down towards 0 for skipping, so I think it's safe to just play the ones you want and ignore the rest.

Interesting, this makes it much easier, if a bit slower. Can't say I'm much of a fan of this change then, although it will make it much easier on cities that stay behind a PvP lock, you won't have to sacrifice UA's on sieges anymore to get battles outside of GE makes it seem watered down. I will take full advantage of it though just like the PvP lock.
 

DeletedUser26965

Interesting, this makes it much easier, if a bit slower. Can't say I'm much of a fan of this change then, although it will make it much easier on cities that stay behind a PvP lock, you won't have to sacrifice UA's on sieges anymore to get battles outside of GE makes it seem watered down. I will take full advantage of it though just like the PvP lock.
I think for the simple fact that tasks have Acquire Sector conditions I'm in favor of it, I ran into a bit of a pickle yesterday because of it My First Attempt at Daily Challenge, the pressure is just too much lol. I mean between doing DC's, Events and regular game play trying to "do it all" so to speak, I would think would seem rather daunting to most players rather than enjoyable. I mean I'm only 3 tasks in and I feel my time and investment already justifies a 7% chance at a Wishing Well. I do agree with the sentiment that the change seems to cheapen it somehow but when considering all aspects of the game with it I think it might be fine. I know I'll be skipping any task that has that CMap requirement. I'll still probably be stuck at some point with all the fighting/GE/silver tasks, being in a casual open guild typically means only level 1 is open so if I get too many fighting/GE tasks consecutively I can see having to skip those as well from time to time. I guess theoretically it could take weeks just to get one chance at a 7% WW. We'll see I guess.
 

DeletedUser31440

I think for the simple fact that tasks have Acquire Sector conditions I'm in favor of it, I ran into a bit of a pickle yesterday because of it My First Attempt at Daily Challenge, the pressure is just too much lol. I mean between doing DC's, Events and regular game play trying to "do it all" so to speak, I would think would seem rather daunting to most players rather than enjoyable. I mean I'm only 3 tasks in and I feel my time and investment already justifies a 7% chance at a Wishing Well. I do agree with the sentiment that the change seems to cheapen it somehow but when considering all aspects of the game with it I think it might be fine. I know I'll be skipping any task that has that CMap requirement. I'll still probably be stuck at some point with all the fighting/GE/silver tasks, being in a casual open guild typically means only level 1 is open so if I get too many fighting/GE tasks consecutively I can see having to skip those as well from time to time. I guess theoretically it could take weeks just to get one chance at a 7% WW. We'll see I guess.

C-Map is avoidable on DC's, just leave all the provinces unscouted. If you're going for WW's is it a diamond farm?
 

DeletedUser26965

C-Map is avoidable on DC's, just leave all the provinces unscouted. If you're going for WW's is it a diamond farm?
Well, everything is avoidable in DC's. I call it a WW Alt city and yes it's main purpose is to collect from WW's for diamonds. But just for fun I wanted to give DC a try and so that's what I'm doing on one of my cities and writing about my adventures on that thread I linked.
 

Kaidi

Active Member
C-Map is avoidable on DC's, just leave all the provinces unscouted.

I do that in two of my worlds. But when run concurrently with events that require taking sectors or infiltrating sectors, without an "OR" task, it becomes a bit problematic. (Examples without "OR": The Winter Event, take 3 sectors, twice; Carnival, infiltrate 2, acquire 1, acquire 2, acquire a province, infiltrate 2, acquire 2, and acquire 2; Spring, acquire 2, acquire 3, acquire 2, and acquire 2.)

Now granted, if I weren't in Indy and working on my then PME, now CE map, it wouldn't have been a problem - lol - but part of the reason I'm that far ahead on the maps is because of events and daily challenges.

So I'm really happy about this change, because prior to it, I'd finally given up on Daily Challenges altogether, ONLY because of the map/sector stuff.

I guess I see why some people wouldn't be happy with it, though.
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
part of the reason I'm that far ahead on the maps is because of events and daily challenges.

Yes, but this is not a bug... it's a feature. Inno expects and thus pushes you to advance. You choose not to against the current. I camp. I understand not wanting to move upstream. But... that's my choice and there are consequences to doing so. Daily Challenges are supposed to be a challenge. Fighting the drive to advance seems like a suitable challenge to a camper who doesn't really have much left of a challenge otherwise. I don't know if you're camping... but it sounds like you're moving slower than Inno wants at least, and so... challenge it is.
 

Kaidi

Active Member
Fighting the drive to advance seems like a suitable challenge to a camper who doesn't really have much left of a challenge otherwise.

I get that. But my point was that "Just leave provinces unscouted" doesn't work for daily quests in conjunction with events. So I like that they have dropped the -1.
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
I get that. But my point was that "Just leave provinces unscouted" doesn't work for daily quests in conjunction with events. So I like that they have dropped the -1.

Again... that makes them much less of a challenge. While everyone likely finds things "better" when easier... that sort of breaks the spirit of the thing.
 

DeletedUser31882

Again... that makes them much less of a challenge. While everyone likely finds things "better" when easier... that sort of breaks the spirit of the thing.

To be fair, all this talk of challenge is a bit of a misrepresentation, from my point of view.

On the one hand, the challenge is never equal between players due to RNG and era balancing (20-55 5-min productions versus mo/po or collect silver). A few bad Daily tasks, coupled with having a real-life, will put(May have put?) many players off of the feature.

The actual challenge of DCs is 1) Ability to invest time in a 24 hour period into FoE & 2) Having a city that can handle the different DC tasks. Once #2 is achieved, the only challenge left is #1. Player time, not player skill, becomes the only challenge.

Time is important, because not everyone has time to play the game on a daily basis. I see 24/48 hr cycles used a lot and see how it would encourage an every other day play style with more casual players. Or some SOs will demand attention for a full 24 hour period without the other taking a 'gaming break'.

Thus the dilemma of the -1.
Is the idea of DCs to 'challenge' the player to log in everyday with the risk of making the game tedious because the player will get the stick if they do not login & complete the DC?
Or is the DC meant to be a 24hr only challenge that has an added definitive reward every player can work towards at their own pace and encourage a player to log in everyday if they want the reward acquisition to be faster?

I don't think we should feel any lose of challenge because of the removal of the -1. As players, we shouldn't be penalized because the game tells us to login everyday. That's the problem I see with the ole -1, it is a penalty for having a life, not a carrot to encourage daily play or a skill challenge to feel proud of.

A potential confounding variable is how we compare prize acquisition between players. Are we losing our sense of pride and accomplishment now that the -1 has been removed? Did that hurdle increase our personal sense of accomplishment of logging in daily and performing the 42 5-min productions? Or is it because we feel the new easy-mode challenger's chests being handed out are of lesser value now that the casual players can earn them? Or they are devalued because the no-lifers can farm more of them? Or are they devalued because we can earn them in our secondary worlds without the appropriate 'time challenge cost'?

Which one of us decides what the spirit of the thing is and when or how it breaks?
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
Which one of us decides what the spirit of the thing is and when or how it breaks?

In my opinion, saying you want things to be easier because they are hard to do... i.e. a challenge... is against the spirit of something that is called a challenge. I'm not debating the degree of difficulty on an even scale. I'm not claiming that they're true "challenges" by everyone's definition. I'm simply pointing out that if these are called challenges and then people complain that they're too hard and applaud measures taken to subsequently water them down... it sort of runs contrary to the point of them in the first place. Take it for whatever it's worth to you. I'm sure you'll at least agree that it is now super easy to get to the 7th-day chest... and thus it is not longer something that takes much effort... save that of the time involved. If you have no penalty to failure, then this is just another time sink. If you are now able to cherry pick the easiest "challenges" to get the free stuff... arguably some of the best stuff offered in the game... well that seems kinda contrary to the point to me.
 

DeletedUser

I don't think we should feel any lose of challenge because of the removal of the -1. As players, we shouldn't be penalized because the game tells us to login everyday. That's the problem I see with the ole -1, it is a penalty for having a life, not a carrot to encourage daily play or a skill challenge to feel proud of.
I would disagree with this statement on the basis that it was possible to take a day off under the old system when life called for it. I took every Sunday off, because I am a church-goer and like to have one day a week where I don't feel like the game is ruling my life. :)
The way to do it under the old system was to strategically change your daily starting time. If you moved it to earlier in the day after you had completed your daily challenge, the next challenge would be delayed a full day. I would do this on Saturday after completing the DC for that day, and the next DC would come up on Monday instead of Sunday. (Then at some point you change the start time to later in the day so you don't run out of clock.)
 

Kaidi

Active Member
Again... that makes them much less of a challenge. While everyone likely finds things "better" when easier... that sort of breaks the spirit of the thing.

I disagree. It wasn't "harder" for me - harder stuff is fun - it was impossible. Removing the minus one for me had the same result for me as removing "fight to take sectors" would: I could start doing DCs again. I quit doing DCs entirely I'd gotten "take sectors by fighting" 4 times in a row, starting with a score of 4 and going down to 0. At that point, it wasn't challenging, just kinda stupid. lol.

Though bring back the minus one and include impossible tasks for everyone. lol. I could live with that, and the people who feel like it isn't challenging enough now would be happy. :)
 

Kaidi

Active Member
In my opinion, saying you want things to be easier because they are hard to do... i.e. a challenge... is against the spirit of something that is called a challenge. I'm not debating the degree of difficulty on an even scale. I'm not claiming that they're true "challenges" by everyone's definition. I'm simply pointing out that if these are called challenges and then people complain that they're too hard and applaud measures taken to subsequently water them down... it sort of runs contrary to the point of them in the first place. Take it for whatever it's worth to you. I'm sure you'll at least agree that it is now super easy to get to the 7th-day chest... and thus it is not longer something that takes much effort... save that of the time involved. If you have no penalty to failure, then this is just another time sink. If you are now able to cherry pick the easiest "challenges" to get the free stuff... arguably some of the best stuff offered in the game... well that seems kinda contrary to the point to me.

Well, read my other message regarding something being a challenge and something not being possible in my circumstances, but regardless - lol. I try to do every DC (since there isn't a minus one), even if I think the prizes suck.

What if when the dailies come up, and you click, you have 15-30 seconds to decide whether to take it or not? If you accept it, you get a minus one if you don't finish, if you don't, you lose your shot. Would that be better? Should it *auto-accept* in 15 seconds (so you have to take it regardless) or do you miss out in 15 seconds (so you can't do the quest). Which would prevent cherry-picking?

I'll accept a bunch of 8 hour productions in a city where I have no room and no supply buildings, and might (and do) miss. I'll take a quest that is "visit 30 taverns" when I know I visited 10 hours before and likely won't wake up in the middle of the night to revisit.

But at least I have a *shot* at it. It's up to me at that point how far I want to go. But I *can't* win a CE sector with Indy troops by fighting. That's not a challenge, it just isn't possible. And it's not possible for me to acquire troops even two levels ahead of me in 24 hours, let alone four levels ahead of me, no matter how many diamonds I spend. lol. (A LOT of people in this game are 2 levels ahead on their map.)

When minus was in effect, sometimes it was plus 3 challenges done, then minus 3 impossible challenges.

Gotta say, Inno is pretty good about disallowing the obviously impossible (hence the won't-get-a-sector-quest-if-nothing-has-been-scouted thing). Occasionally stuff gets messed up - they fixed a bug not long ago...I think it was between an event and DCs, GE encounters weren't counted concurrently, and so if you got both at the same time, it wasn't possible to finish if there weren't enough GE encounters left available to do them successively, something like that.) But they DO fix those.

Doing 20 8-hour productions with no supplies buildings, no room, and not enough time to build the buildings isn't impossible, it's just expensive, lol. But some of the "take a sector by fighting quests" are impossible for me.

So what would make you happy on this? Would requiring acceptance of the quest do it, and then minus if you fail? (Because I thought you said you liked the idea that you could skip a quest - though maybe that was someone else - but you can do that anyway, by changing the clock.)

Where's your happy medium?

ETA: And reading back up, if you guys think this is dodging difficulty, how about this? NO work-around where you can skip a day, because of the way changing the clock works. And no daily challenge offered if you don't have a scouted territory (whether that challenge included fighting sectors or not). Because those two things are dodging the difficulty and aren't in the spirit of the "challenge". Then we can go back to the old -1 thing. :)
 
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DeletedUser

I'll accept a bunch of 8 hour productions in a city where I have no room and no supply buildings, and might (and do) miss. I'll take a quest that is "visit 30 taverns" when I know I visited 10 hours before and likely won't wake up in the middle of the night to revisit.

But at least I have a *shot* at it. It's up to me at that point how far I want to go. But I *can't* win a CE sector with Indy troops by fighting. That's not a challenge, it just isn't possible. And it's not possible for me to acquire troops even two levels ahead of me in 24 hours, let alone four levels ahead of me, no matter how many diamonds I spend. lol. (A LOT of people in this game are 2 levels ahead on their map.)
All of these things are symptoms of poor short term (productions & Tavern visiting) and long term (map sectors) planning on the player's part. I don't understand why players don't get the simple concept that if you play certain ways, it precludes succeeding in certain parts of the game. No production buildings? You're going to have trouble with events and DCs. Way ahead of your era on the C-Map? Same thing. Research your entire era? Sorry, a research quest in an event is going to sink you. It's not rocket science. And planning for the "visiting Taverns" challenge is easy peasy. Do your M/P and Tavern sitting right after your DC start time each day. Even if your DC for that day doesn't call for it. That way you always have the best chance if the M/P or Tavern sitting challenges come up. Same thing with collecting Tavern silver. Make a point of not collecting it until you open your DC for that day. It really isn't rocket science. The least amount of thought and planning makes most DCs a walk in the park. I mean, how hard is it to figure out that if you set your production buildings to 8 hours the night before, you're set if the 8 hour productions challenge shows up?
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
I *can't* win a CE sector with Indy troops by fighting. That's not a challenge, it just isn't possible. And it's not possible for me to acquire troops even two levels ahead of me in 24 hours, let alone four levels ahead of me, no matter how many diamonds I spend. lol. (A LOT of people in this game are 2 levels ahead on their map.)

But some of the "take a sector by fighting quests" are impossible for me.

I've yet to have a Daily Challenge ask me to take a sector specifically by fighting. Maybe I've just been lucky or maybe they aren't asked of lower ages. Either way, if they do specify that for Daily Challenges, then I can see why you'd be frustrated by an inability to fight using your lower age troops, though I can't excuse you for choosing to advance on the continental map without keeping pace on the tech tree. That doesn't make the challenges "impossible" per se. It does make them something you can't do based on your personal choices. And I get that. Yes, many people do that. The result is a more and more challenging set of quests. I'm three ages ahead of mine now. But it's very easy to take sectors by negotiation using goods -- with a bit of planning ahead -- and I've never been asked by a Daily Challenge to take a sector specifically by fighting. Again, maybe I've been lucky. But to be fair to the spirit of a challenge... none of this is required to play the game. Consider them challenges to your playstyle if you don't want to consider them challenges of play in general.

So what would make you happy on this? Would requiring acceptance of the quest do it, and then minus if you fail? (Because I thought you said you liked the idea that you could skip a quest - though maybe that was someone else - but you can do that anyway, by changing the clock.)

Where's your happy medium?

Yup. I would be in favor of a -1 if you choose a quest and then don't complete it, but a 0 if you just don't choose one at all for the day. I think that's absolutely a fair middle ground between what was and what now is.
 

DeletedUser31882

ETA: And reading back up, if you guys think this is dodging difficulty, how about this? NO work-around where you can skip a day, because of the way changing the clock works. And no daily challenge offered if you don't have a scouted territory (whether that challenge included fighting sectors or not). Because those two things are dodging the difficulty and aren't in the spirit of the "challenge". Then we can go back to the old -1 thing. :)

You illustrate the conflation I was trying to tease out earlier.

The Tasks themselves are the challenge. Setting up a city that can handle any of the RNG tasks (Or dodge them, like sectors/tavern boosts etc.) is the challenge. Failing the challenge (and thus NOT getting a +1 and the daily chest) is an appropriate failure cost, from my point of view.

The -1 challenges the player to login everyday & complete the DC tasks. Regardless of accepting the DC or the task difficulty, the -1 was always there. If a player wants that Challenger's chest, you HAD to login, on average, every 1.5 days AND complete the Daily. It's what I call a 'stick challenge' because the player is hurt(hit with a stick) if they don't complete it. I don't believe stick challenges are good for a game feature that is supposed to encourage player retention and daily play. Removing the -1 gives more power to the player; they now control how fast they want to earn their next Challenger's chest.

Recognizing that the -1 is a stick challenge is why I also questioned the underlying logic of those who value the stick challenge. From my understanding, they either enjoy being hit with a stick and/or feel the prize is devalued if others are not getting hit by the same stick. I question if that outlook is healthy, especially when applied to something that should be a challenge for solo-play and not competitive(Although FoE is complicated enough that those are intertwined).

That all being said, That's why I separate the daily tasks challenges from the -1. A lot of what you argue is specific to the balancing of the daily challenge tasks. I don't have much to add as Sir Sal & Ser Stephen made the arguments I would have used. There must be a challenge somewhere. Crafting a city that can handle all/most the tasks being the biggest, since it shows mastery of the obstacle course Inno has placed between us and the prize.

Can you imagine the desert this forum would be if players understood this?

Desert or Dessert? Wait... It'd be both, wouldn't it? I need to stop answering my own questions.

I'm sure you'll at least agree that it is now super easy to get to the 7th-day chest... and thus it is not longer something that takes much effort... save that of the time involved. If you have no penalty to failure, then this is just another time sink. If you are now able to cherry pick the easiest "challenges" to get the free stuff... arguably some of the best stuff offered in the game... well that seems kinda contrary to the point to me.

I agree with you up to the 'super easy' part. Easier? Absolutely. No longer takes much effort? From how I see it, it takes the same amount of effort, it just no longer requires us to treat DCs like a job that must be done or we get fired/lose pay. The penalty for failure is no chest & No +1. Hence why I call the -1 a 'stick challenge'. We could always cherry pick the easiest challengers to get 'free' stuff, but now we have more control on how fast the loot treadmill is versus the harsh "Do this or no prize".

Other than that deviation, I believe we are in agreement on challenges should live up their name. It's too bad Inno didn't go with the '-1 if you choose a DC chest and fail to complete it' option.

In minor topic related news: I'm enjoying the new city zoom level. It is now easier for me to find/collect incidents on PC than on mobile.
 

Kaidi

Active Member
I've yet to have a Daily Challenge ask me to take a sector specifically by fighting. Maybe I've just been lucky or maybe they aren't asked of lower ages.

I envy you. The three possibilities are acquire sectors (1-5, doesn't say how), acquire by fighting (1-3) and acquire by negotiation (1-4). May you continue to be lucky!!
 

ODragon

Well-Known Member
Too late now but what is with the "Don't Show Again" check boxes but no where to change them back if you decide you want it to show again.

Example: I may want to stop all 50 extra clicks when to change clockmakers for daily challenge but after i change it, I want to have the extra click.

Much like separating set buildings, I can't find any way to turn the alert back on. Anyone know a way?
 
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