Changes to DNSL feedback.

mamboking053

Well-Known Member
I think the changes should be emphasized. Bold letters and/or different color. Just to make it crystal clear.

Other than that, yep, looks like you can't really say anything. Even changes Inno made wouldn't make the list if it were suggested here.
 

hjh102

Well-Known Member
I think we're getting tangled up in language here. Any player can, at any time, discuss anything they like in the Forge Hall/Questions sections. Any player can post something that they'd like to see included in the game in the Proposals section. Items on the Do Not Suggest List will not be sent to Inno because those are the guidelines they provided.

When a player creates a post in the Proposals section for something on the DNSL, we simply need to make them aware that their idea isn't something that we can send to Inno.

But it's ludicrous to suggest that there are ideas that we're not allowed to discuss. Inno doesn't care if we talk about them, they do not want us to bother THEM with it (so .. no proposals sent to Inno for items on the DNSL).
 

Stephen Longshanks

Well-Known Member
I think the changes should be emphasized. Bold letters and/or different color. Just to make it crystal clear.
I have done this on a temporary basis.
Any player can, at any time, discuss anything they like in the Forge Hall/Questions sections.
This is exactly right. Within Forum rules, of course.
When a player creates a post in the Proposals section for something on the DNSL, we simply need to make them aware that their idea isn't something that we can send to Inno.
If by "we" you are referring to moderating staff, then I agree. One of the issues we've had with the Proposals section is Forum members taking it upon themselves to declare items permissible or not before a moderator even has a chance to see them. This was one of the motivations for relaxing the format requirements. Forum members need to focus on the merits of the thread topic itself and leave the moderating to the staff.
 

Clara Osgood

Well-Known Member
If by "we" you are referring to moderating staff, then I agree. One of the issues we've had with the Proposals section is Forum members taking it upon themselves to declare items permissible or not before a moderator even has a chance to see them. This was one of the motivations for relaxing the format requirements. Forum members need to focus on the merits of the thread topic itself and leave the moderating to the staff.
This ^^^ I do take some exception to based on my observations over the past 15 months here. Actually, one of the issues we've had with the Proposals section is that mods never looked at or responded to any of the threads except when posts were flagged as inappropriate behavior (rarely for dnsl). Even when multiple people pointed out a proposal was on DNSL, the thread typically continued without any post or action taken by a mod. Heck, I even tagged mods once on a proposal to solve an in-thread argument, to clarify if was DNSL. Only answers were repeatedly stating submit a clear outline of suggestion (which the OP already had done) & don't mod bash (which no one was doing). do you remember that thread? I think you & at least 1-2 other players privately may have had conversations with mods trying to get a reasonable answer to the reasonable question, without success.
 
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DreadfulCadillac

Well-Known Member
I have done this on a temporary basis.

This is exactly right. Within Forum rules, of course.

If by "we" you are referring to moderating staff, then I agree. One of the issues we've had with the Proposals section is Forum members taking it upon themselves to declare items permissible or not before a moderator even has a chance to see them. This was one of the motivations for relaxing the format requirements. Forum members need to focus on the merits of the thread topic itself and leave the moderating to the staff.
relaxing?more like tightening..
 

Stephen Longshanks

Well-Known Member
This ^^^ I do take some exception to based on my observations over the past 15 months here. Actually, one of the issues we've had with the Proposals section is that mods never looked at or responded to any of the threads except when posts were flagged as inappropriate behavior (rarely for dnsl). Even when multiple people pointed out a proposal was on DNSL, the thread typically continued without any post or action taken by a mod. Heck, I even tagged mods once on a proposal to solve an in-thread argument, to clarify if was DNSL. Only answers were repeatedly stating submit a clear outline of suggestion (which the OP already had done) & don't mod bash (which no one was doing). do you remember that thread? I think you & at least 1-2 other players privately may have had conversations with mods trying to get a reasonable answer to the reasonable question, without success.
Yes, there have been issues with the Proposals section. That was one of my motivating factors in applying for the moderator position. If you have never been a mod, it's hard to convey how difficult it is. I certainly didn't until I became one. All moderators are volunteers who do this in the time they have between real life and actually playing the game. Forum regulars, on the other hand, are here seemingly all the time. So you can have 3 or more pages on a proposal in just a couple of hours. I can't tell you how frustrating it is to get on the Forum after just a few hours absence and see an already out of control, off topic thread where posters are arguing about everything except the merits of the proposal.

We are taking steps to address this. One of them was relaxing the format requirements, because that has been the quickest road to off-topic-ville. And poster after poster chastising the new member for not using proper format has been about the least welcoming part of the Forum. Subsequently, we have adjusted the Do Not Suggest List. Some of the items we just clarified, others were added from a global DNSL that some other servers are basing their DNSL on. With that change to the DNSL, we ask that Forum regulars leave the determination of whether a proposal violates it to the moderating staff. If anyone feels a proposed item violates the DNSL, the proper response is to use the "Report" button on the proposal post, specifying that you believe it may be on the DNSL. Then it can be addressed and determined by a member of the moderating staff, who can hopefully then handle the matter without the OP feeling like they are being attacked by everybody on the Forum.

One of the things that we would like Forum members to keep in mind is that the main reason for having a Forum is to build community among the players. Making proposals to improve the game is (or should be) just a minor part of this.
relaxing?more like tightening..
Relaxing the format requirements. Clarifying and more closely aligning our DNSL with what other servers are using. It makes no sense, as @Agent327 rightly points out, to let proposals of certain items proceed through the process when there is no chance that the developers will look at them. The purpose of the DNSL is two-fold. It is intended to not waste the time of developers having to look at proposed changes that they either won't do or are already working on, and also not to waste the time of players proposing, discussing and voting on things that won't be submitted.
 

Lancer

FOE Team
Forum Moderator
stephen has defintaly made the forum a better place @Stephen Longshanks my 2nd favorite moderator is @Lancer

Well, Thank You! I also agree that @Stephen Longshanks has made the forum a lot better, especially after his promotion to become a mod. That was an expected outcome though, when all of us other mods had agreed that he would be a great person to become the newest moderator.
 

DreadfulCadillac

Well-Known Member
we shoulda kept our old useless dnsl..just because america likes to be differnent..different dnsl's, different metric systems...i mean the only things can go wrong are useless proposals and millions of dollars of goverment money going into the trash cause of a failed nasa thing because of inter country confusion....;)
 

Clara Osgood

Well-Known Member
@Stephen Longshanks... if there's now a policy that forumites should "report" (via that button) a DNSL proposal as such to mods instead of replying about it in the thread itself, then I strongly suggest someone says so somewhere other than in this feedback thread. Perhaps in the corresponding dnsl stickied thread?

We can then get our post counts up replying to the perpetrators with "Tell it to the mods instead!" ;)
 

dontwannaname

Well-Known Member
@Stephen Longshanks... if there's now a policy that forumites should "report" (via that button) a DNSL proposal as such to mods instead of replying about it in the thread itself, then I strongly suggest someone says so somewhere other than in this feedback thread. Perhaps in the corresponding dnsl stickied thread?

We can then get our post counts up replying to the perpetrators with "Tell it to the mods instead!" ;)
I second this. Make it clear in the proposals thread and the DNSL thread that it is the moderator's job to moderate the forum, and the rest of us should make frequent use of the report button.
We can then get our post counts up replying to the perpetrators with "Tell it to the mods instead!"
By the same token, the report button should be used to flag offending posts, and any posts that inform others of rule-breaking behavior are breaking the rules by attempting to do the job of moderators (which could be interpreted as impersonation of a moderator role). My two cents.
 

Clara Osgood

Well-Known Member
... By the same token, the report button should be used to flag offending posts, and any posts that inform others of rule-breaking behavior are breaking the rules by attempting to do the job of moderators (which could be interpreted as impersonation of a moderator role). My two cents.
Yep :)
 

Stephen Longshanks

Well-Known Member
@Stephen Longshanks... if there's now a policy that forumites should "report" (via that button) a DNSL proposal as such to mods instead of replying about it in the thread itself, then I strongly suggest someone says so somewhere other than in this feedback thread. Perhaps in the corresponding dnsl stickied thread?

We can then get our post counts up replying to the perpetrators with "Tell it to the mods instead!" ;)
I second this. Make it clear in the proposals thread and the DNSL thread that it is the moderator's job to moderate the forum, and the rest of us should make frequent use of the report button.

By the same token, the report button should be used to flag offending posts, and any posts that inform others of rule-breaking behavior are breaking the rules by attempting to do the job of moderators (which could be interpreted as impersonation of a moderator role). My two cents.
I believe that has always been the proper way to deal with such things, but it is rarely used in that way for proposal posts. I will add such a note to the DNSL later today when I'm back on PC.
 

dpghost

Active Member
Do you know how it sounds?
We won't talk about it, because anyway, it's a DNSL, and please help the moderator by reporting fellows player that come and talk about it.
AGAIN - talk is what defines progress and if we all agree, then we are in heaven and ... beware of destroying HEAVEN
OMG - destroying Heaven it's heresy - maybe we should burn at stake the transgressor...
 

Stephen Longshanks

Well-Known Member
Do you know how it sounds?
We won't talk about it, because anyway, it's a DNSL, and please help the moderator by reporting fellows player that come and talk about it.
AGAIN - talk is what defines progress and if we all agree, then we are in heaven and ... beware of destroying HEAVEN
OMG - destroying Heaven it's heresy - maybe we should burn at stake the transgressor...
Listen carefully this time: The DNSL only applies to PROPOSALS. It does not apply to Forge Hall discussions. Talk about DNSL stuff all you want in Forge Hall, as long as you abide by Forum rules.