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Cheating in GBG

GBG was iintroduced in the game with an idea that smaller players and guild who are not able to compete in GVG can also enjoy fights in the game but all this idea is of no use. In GBG few big guilds are teaming up and making alliances. They take over whole map rotate tiles among themselves and not allowing smaller guilds to fight. They hold tiles at 150-159 fights and take as they see other guilds hitting that tile. Also they use each others siege camps so that they have to spend less of diamonds and goods. Now smaller guilds don't want to try for higher leagues as they won't be able to fight with these alliances of bigger guilds. Bigger guilds are becoming more bigger as active players of smaller guilds leaving those guilds to join those big guilds so that they can play games. In the end all this thing is not making smaller players to enjoy the game and lossing their interest in game so this issue must be taken care of ASAP
 

Nicholas002

Well-Known Member
There is already a pretty good discussion of this...
https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/gbg-when-will-it-get-balanced.36579/

as for the thread title, it is not cheating.
If you think the league placement is unfair, then consider growing your guild to be able to compete in higher leagues, or be content to drop a few leagues where you can compete against similar sized guilds.

If your problem is lack of opportunity for personal rewards, then maybe you have to hone your negotiating skills. I know from personal experience that big guilds often make deals with small guilds. Maybe try to make a deal where you trade one or two outside sectors, leaving all sieges, while they trade the inner sectors with other big guilds. this should allow for plenty of opportunity for personal rewards, if your guild is small, as you say.
 
There is already a pretty good discussion of this...
https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/gbg-when-will-it-get-balanced.36579/

as for the thread title, it is not cheating.
If you think the league placement is unfair, then consider growing your guild to be able to compete in higher leagues, or be content to drop a few leagues where you can compete against similar sized guild

If your problem is lack of opportunity for personal rewards, then maybe you have to hone your negotiating skills. I know from personal experience that big guilds often make deals with small guilds. Maybe try to make a deal where you trade one or two outside sectors, leaving all sieges, while they trade the inner sectors with other big guilds. this should allow for plenty of opportunity for personal rewards, if your guild is small, as you say.
i think you misunderstood what i meant to say. My issue is not how big guild is and with which guilds they are fighting. My issue is two or three guilds in diamond league teaming up and interchanging tiles among themselves and not allowing other guilds to play. Because of such time of game play they will stay in diamond league forever as no one can beat them as they are a team of big guilds and they keep tiles locked at 150-159 fights and don't allow other guilds to play
 

Algona

Well-Known Member
The GBG Guild dance has been discussed repeatedly for months. I'll cut to the chase instead of going through all the motions.

It's not cheating.

There's a wonderful locked thread in the Proposals, err, I mean, Ideas subforum that started with a post proposing making dancing more difficult.

Turns out the poster was in a Guild that was dominating GBG multiple times until other Guilds used the same tactic to freeze out his Guild.

That;s the key here, get more Guilds to stomp them a few times in a row. Then comes the true test. Do you keep treating them the way treated you or do you figure out if everyone cooperates everyone wins?

Tough, but it's the only option you have aside from dropping into Platinum.
 

DeletedUser27301

I'm a leader in the same guild as Edmund. We're not a tiny guild, it's a top 10 guild with 80 members. In the world we're in, our guild is top 3 for most battles and player points.

I will agree with other posters that the guild dance is not cheating, however, it is an issue that causes some problems that Inno should be concerned about. When 6/8 top guilds are locked out from playing at all in Diamond league, do you think that the players of those guilds are spending as much on GBG or the game in general? I know I'm not, and I can easily see that my guild mates as well as players in other guilds are not either, after all, there's no opportunity to do so.

Guild activity also goes way down during the weeks when we are pitted against the same two guilds at the top. It's not just in GBG, but in general. Less chat, less activity, less 1.9 participation, less swap participation, everything. Some get bored and find something that's not FoE to do. Is this something that Inno wants to happen to swaths of their most active players? I don't think so.

Could our guild try to team up 10 players at a time to beat one of those other guilds to a tile? Absolutely, we've done it many times. Is a game worth 24/7 monitoring just for the sake of a few short bursts of play? Absolutely not and that is not something a game should ever expect of even its most active player base.

I've been playing FoE for four years, I love this game and rarely have had any problems with it, but this is an imbalance in the game that badly needs to be corrected. This is the kind of thing that will lead to players quitting, perhaps not outright, but the gradual quit as the game gets boring.

Edit: One last thing, this has been going on for months. I was in the very first round of diamond in this world and every season it's been two guilds at the top doing this. This is by no means a one-off incident, it's been going on for nearly half a year now.
 

DeletedUser39339

I'm a leader in the same guild as Edmund. We're not a tiny guild, it's a top 10 guild with 80 members. In the world we're in, our guild is top 3 for most battles and player points.

I will agree with other posters that the guild dance is not cheating, however, it is an issue that causes some problems that Inno should be concerned about. When 6/8 top guilds are locked out from playing at all in Diamond league, do you think that the players of those guilds are spending as much on GBG or the game in general? I know I'm not, and I can easily see that my guild mates as well as players in other guilds are not either, after all, there's no opportunity to do so.

Guild activity also goes way down during the weeks when we are pitted against the same two guilds at the top. It's not just in GBG, but in general. Less chat, less activity, less 1.9 participation, less swap participation, everything. Some get bored and find something that's not FoE to do. Is this something that Inno wants to happen to swaths of their most active players? I don't think so.

Could our guild try to team up 10 players at a time to beat one of those other guilds to a tile? Absolutely, we've done it many times. Is a game worth 24/7 monitoring just for the sake of a few short bursts of play? Absolutely not and that is not something a game should ever expect of even its most active player base.

I've been playing FoE for four years, I love this game and rarely have had any problems with it, but this is an imbalance in the game that badly needs to be corrected. This is the kind of thing that will lead to players quitting, perhaps not outright, but the gradual quit as the game gets boring.

Edit: One last thing, this has been going on for months. I was in the very first round of diamond in this world and every season it's been two guilds at the top doing this. This is by no means a one-off incident, it's been going on for nearly half a year now.
I think you hit the issue that spot on. This is not an issue of cheating. It is an issue of imbalance. As Nicolas002 said, there is a pretty good discussion of imbalance going on in a different thread ... https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/gbg-when-will-it-get-balanced.36579/
 

Agent327

Well-Known Member
GBG was iintroduced in the game with an idea that smaller players and guild who are not able to compete in GVG can also enjoy fights in the game

Can you show us when and where it was said that GBG was introduced for that reason?

Bigger guilds are becoming more bigger as active players of smaller guilds leaving those guilds to join those big guilds so that they can play games. In the end all this thing is not making smaller players to enjoy the game and lossing their interest in game so this issue must be taken care of ASAP

That rather is a contradiction. Those smaller players leaving your guild, must enjoy the game now more.

I will agree with other posters that the guild dance is not cheating, however, it is an issue that causes some problems that Inno should be concerned about. When 6/8 top guilds are locked out from playing at all in Diamond league, do you think that the players of those guilds are spending as much on GBG or the game in general? I know I'm not, and I can easily see that my guild mates as well as players in other guilds are not either, after all, there's no opportunity to do so.

Not that argument again!. Give me what I want or I will spend less! Make changes or you will have less income!

Guild activity also goes way down during the weeks when we are pitted against the same two guilds at the top. It's not just in GBG, but in general. Less chat, less activity, less 1.9 participation, less swap participation, everything. Some get bored and find something that's not FoE to do. Is this something that Inno wants to happen to swaths of their most active players? I don't think so.

If the most active players start acting like this the moment something does not go their way they are not active at all. If you can not deal with others being better you might as well quit.

Could our guild try to team up 10 players at a time to beat one of those other guilds to a tile? Absolutely, we've done it many times. Is a game worth 24/7 monitoring just for the sake of a few short bursts of play? Absolutely not and that is not something a game should ever expect of even its most active player base.

So most active only means if others are less active. If others become active as well, most active becomes most passive.

I've been playing FoE for four years, I love this game and rarely have had any problems with it, but this is an imbalance in the game that badly needs to be corrected. This is the kind of thing that will lead to players quitting, perhaps not outright, but the gradual quit as the game gets boring.

Only imbalance is that your guild isn't as good as you think it is.

Edit: One last thing, this has been going on for months. I was in the very first round of diamond in this world and every season it's been two guilds at the top doing this. This is by no means a one-off incident, it's been going on for nearly half a year now.

Then it is up to you to break that cycle.
 
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RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
I do agree there's a problem with the farming dance. I can't imagine this is what Inno ever envisioned GBG becoming. It's become a problem with the guilds that engage in it, as well as the guilds locked out because of it.

The root of the problem are the rewards and the people fighting to get those rewards. Between guilds, two guilds locking out the others means two guilds suck up most all the rewards. Worse, is that inside those guilds, the strongest members race to suck up the rewards before their weaker guild mates.

The biggest guilds get bigger at the expense of the smaller guilds, the biggest players get bigger at the expense of their smaller guild mates. More for me, less for thee. Greedy pigs feeding at the trough, for whom more than enough is never enough.

I shut down my city on R because of this, and just left my guild on W because of this. In both worlds, I was in guilds at the top doing the farming. In both guilds I was also at the top earning rewards. In both guilds, I had the capacity to push harder to earn even more. But to do that, I'll have to become a greedy bastard like the players I now loath. Becoming the player I hate, is something I'm not inclined to do.

I've had my fill of the strongest players refusing to touch any province with less than 4 Siege Camps for fear they'll take attrition and miss out on more rewards later in the day. I've had my fill of those same players, leaving the crap provinces for the smaller players, forcing those with the least capacity, to take the most attrition. I've had my fill of seeing the players who could use a hand up, get stomped down by their own guild mates.

On W, in the first round of GBG, we were in Silver League. We worked together to grow our capacity, our abilities, and our guild. We worked our way up through Gold, through Platinum, and finally to Diamond. Our first round in Diamond we were invited into a farming alliance. Once that happened all guild cooperation went out the window.

A mere 5 days in and the big boys now refused to touch any province with less than 4 Siege Camps. A mere 5 days in and the big boys were now complaining about the junior members not 'stepping up' to take the provinces with only 2 or 3 Siege Camps they now refused to touch. Provinces that needed to be taken to set the big boys up for the next provinces with 4 or more Siege Camps. A mere 5 days in and the big boys were now racing each other to fill the flags as fast as possible, lest another guild mate get the rewards first.

Now there's no going back. Pandora is out of the box, and reeking her havoc. Havoc I want no part of.

I'm not sure what this means for me moving forward. For now, it means taking a break from the game to reassess. To me, GBG is irreparably broken, for me GBG has broken the game. This behavior has sucked out all the joy and left me filled with angst. With this now the game, for me, it's likely time to move on.

As a free to play player, my leaving has no financial impact on Inno. Good riddance from their perspective, I'm sure. For me, with no financial investment in the game, the only loss is the time invested, time already lost anyway. Time that moving forward can certainly be invested in more fulfilling activities, activities that give me joy.

I'll give it a few weeks to see how I feel then. Either continue under a broken system, or delete my cities and move on. I'm still on the fence, we'll see.
 
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Agent327

Well-Known Member
I do agree there's a problem with the farming dance. I can't imagine this is what Inno ever envisioned GBG becoming. It's become a problem with the guilds that engage in it, as well as the guilds locked out because of it.

Same problem every time. Inno envisions one thing and players turn it into something else. Has always been like that and they will never learn, nor will it ever change.

Taking diamonds and fp's out of the personal rewards might be a (partial) solution.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
Same problem every time. Inno envisions one thing and players turn it into something else. Has always been like that and they will never learn, nor will it ever change.
I wonder if they'd given it a longer Beta test, if they would have seen the dance evolve before it went live. In hindsight, they kind of rushed it out the door before seeing the long term consequences of the current structure.
Taking diamonds and fp's out of the personal rewards might be a (partial) solution.
That's not a bad idea. I'd advocate for removing the SoH fragments as well. Just keep the goods and unit rewards at the same frequency they are now. They could then add some diamonds and FPs to the chest rewards. This would remove the incentive to farm and place the incentive where it should be, scoring the highest possible spot in each round to get the best chest rewards.

You'd still have guilds creating alliances, which is fine, but they'd be based on taking and holding territory for the biggest chest rewards. That is a system and proposal I could get behind.

Unfortunately it's not hard to see the negative effect this would have on Diamond expenditures. A negative effect I can't see Inno ever accepting, even to improve (fix) the game. Like it or not, the bottom line is the bottom line. Unfortunate, but true.
 

Nicholas002

Well-Known Member
That's not a bad idea. I'd advocate for removing the SoH fragments as well. Just keep the goods and unit rewards at the same frequency they are now. They could then add some diamonds and FPs to the chest rewards. This would remove the incentive to farm and place the incentive where it should be, scoring the highest possible spot in each round to get the best chest rewards.
100% agreed. While I am in a big farming guild, I see that this is bad for the game in general. Can you please write that up in a proposal idea?
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
100% agreed. While I am in a big farming guild, I see that this is bad for the game in general. Can you please write that up in a proposal idea?
I would, but I don't see the point. I can't see it ever gaining the traction needed to make it to Inno, and I'm smart enough to know even if it were to get to Inno, it would be dead on arrival. Regardless of the effect on the game, the current system produces a lot of revenue. Revenue Inno won't give up.
 

Agent327

Well-Known Member
I wonder if they'd given it a longer Beta test, if they would have seen the dance evolve before it went live. In hindsight, they kind of rushed it out the door before seeing the long term consequences of the current structure.

Beta isn't beta anymore. It has become a normal play world and they are rushing things to the live servers. Look at it this way. GvG had a longer test time on beta. Did that help? Do you think devs ever envisioned it is possible to block access to large parts of the map?

That's not a bad idea. I'd advocate for removing the SoH fragments as well. Just keep the goods and unit rewards at the same frequency they are now. They could then add some diamonds and FPs to the chest rewards. This would remove the incentive to farm and place the incentive where it should be, scoring the highest possible spot in each round to get the best chest rewards.

SoH at least helps the Guild as well.

You'd still have guilds creating alliances, which is fine, but they'd be based on taking and holding territory for the biggest chest rewards. That is a system and proposal I could get behind.

You could propose it.

Unfortunately it's not hard to see the negative effect this would have on Diamond expenditures. A negative effect I can't see Inno ever accepting, even to improve (fix) the game. Like it or not, the bottom line is the bottom line. Unfortunate, but true.

Not so sure it will be that negative. Some players and Guilds still want to dominate, no matter what.[/QUOTE]
 
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I do agree there's a problem with the farming dance. I can't imagine this is what Inno ever envisioned GBG becoming. It's become a problem with the guilds that engage in it, as well as the guilds locked out because of it.

The root of the problem are the rewards and the people fighting to get those rewards. Between guilds, two guilds locking out the others means two guilds suck up most all the rewards. Worse, is that inside those guilds, the strongest members race to suck up the rewards before their weaker guild mates.

The biggest guilds get bigger at the expense of the smaller guilds, the biggest players get bigger at the expense of their smaller guild mates. More for me, less for thee. Greedy pigs feeding at the trough, for whom more than enough is never enough.

I shut down my city on R because of this, and just left my guild on W because of this. In both worlds, I was in guilds at the top doing the farming. In both guilds I was also at the top earning rewards. In both guilds, I had the capacity to push harder to earn even more. But to do that, I'll have to become a greedy bastard like the players I now loath. Becoming the player I hate, is something I'm not inclined to do.

I've had my fill of the strongest players refusing to touch any province with less than 4 Siege Camps for fear they'll take attrition and miss out on more rewards later in the day. I've had my fill of those same players, leaving the crap provinces for the smaller players, forcing those with the least capacity, to take the most attrition. I've had my fill of seeing the players who could use a hand up, get stomped down by their own guild mates.

On W, in the first round of GBG, we were in Silver League. We worked together to grow our capacity, our abilities, and our guild. We worked our way up through Gold, through Platinum, and finally to Diamond. Our first round in Diamond we were invited into a farming alliance. Once that happened all guild cooperation went out the window.

A mere 5 days in and the big boys now refused to touch any province with less than 4 Siege Camps. A mere 5 days in and the big boys were complaining about the junior members not 'stepping up' to take the provinces with only 2 or 3 Siege Camps they now refused to touch. Provinces that needed to be taken to set the big boys up for the next province with 4 or more Siege Camps. A mere 5 days in and the big boys were now racing each other to fill the flags as fast as possible, lest another guild mate get the rewards first.

Now there's no going back. Pandora is out of the box, and reeking her havoc. Havoc I want no part of.

I'm not sure what this means for me moving forward. For now, it means taking a break from the game to reassess. To me, GBG is irreparably broken, for me GBG has broken the game. This behavior has sucked out all the joy and left me filled with angst. With this now the game, for me, it's likely time to move on.

As a free to play player, my leaving has no financial impact on Inno. Good riddance from their perspective, I'm sure. For me, with no financial investment in the game, the only loss is the time invested, time already lost anyway. Time that moving forward can certainly be invested in more fulfilling activities, activities that give me joy.

I'll give it a few weeks to see how I feel then. Either continue under a broken system, or delete my cities and move on. I'm still on the fence, we'll see.
At least someone understood my point. In my opinion GBG should be moderated like GE so that alliance among guilds is not possible and fair play can be played and deserving guild wins
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
SoH does help the guild, but being able to add 1-2 levels in a single round is insane. Maybe if the Diamonds and FPs ere removed, it would slow down fragment accumulation as well. Who knows?

I don't know how much of a negative a change like this would have on Diamond expenditures, but I think the size of the possible impact is something Inno isn't willing to risk.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
At least someone understood my point. In my opinion GBG should be moderated like GE so that alliance among guilds is not possible and fair play can be played and deserving guild wins
The problem isn't alliances. The problem is personal rewards. In the absence of personal rewards, alliances would still form, but not to farm. The farming is the problem. The unintended consequence of personal rewards.
 

BruteForceAttack

Well-Known Member
SoH does help the guild, but being able to add 1-2 levels in a single round is insane. Maybe if the Diamonds and FPs ere removed, it would slow down fragment accumulation as well. Who knows?

I don't know how much of a negative a change like this would have on Diamond expenditures, but I think the size of the possible impact is something Inno isn't willing to risk.

Inno knows to the the last penny how much diamonds are spent on GbG and I'm sure they will do whatever actually increases their profit :)
 
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BruteForceAttack

Well-Known Member
I do agree there's a problem with the farming dance. I can't imagine this is what Inno ever envisioned GBG becoming. It's become a problem with the guilds that engage in it, as well as the guilds locked out because of it.

The root of the problem are the rewards and the people fighting to get those rewards. Between guilds, two guilds locking out the others means two guilds suck up most all the rewards. Worse, is that inside those guilds, the strongest members race to suck up the rewards before their weaker guild mates.

The biggest guilds get bigger at the expense of the smaller guilds, the biggest players get bigger at the expense of their smaller guild mates. More for me, less for thee. Greedy pigs feeding at the trough, for whom more than enough is never enough.

I shut down my city on R because of this, and just left my guild on W because of this. In both worlds, I was in guilds at the top doing the farming. In both guilds I was also at the top earning rewards. In both guilds, I had the capacity to push harder to earn even more. But to do that, I'll have to become a greedy bastard like the players I now loath. Becoming the player I hate, is something I'm not inclined to do.

I've had my fill of the strongest players refusing to touch any province with less than 4 Siege Camps for fear they'll take attrition and miss out on more rewards later in the day. I've had my fill of those same players, leaving the crap provinces for the smaller players, forcing those with the least capacity, to take the most attrition. I've had my fill of seeing the players who could use a hand up, get stomped down by their own guild mates.

On W, in the first round of GBG, we were in Silver League. We worked together to grow our capacity, our abilities, and our guild. We worked our way up through Gold, through Platinum, and finally to Diamond. Our first round in Diamond we were invited into a farming alliance. Once that happened all guild cooperation went out the window.

A mere 5 days in and the big boys now refused to touch any province with less than 4 Siege Camps. A mere 5 days in and the big boys were now complaining about the junior members not 'stepping up' to take the provinces with only 2 or 3 Siege Camps they now refused to touch. Provinces that needed to be taken to set the big boys up for the next provinces with 4 or more Siege Camps. A mere 5 days in and the big boys were now racing each other to fill the flags as fast as possible, lest another guild mate get the rewards first.

Now there's no going back. Pandora is out of the box, and reeking her havoc. Havoc I want no part of.

I'm not sure what this means for me moving forward. For now, it means taking a break from the game to reassess. To me, GBG is irreparably broken, for me GBG has broken the game. This behavior has sucked out all the joy and left me filled with angst. With this now the game, for me, it's likely time to move on.

As a free to play player, my leaving has no financial impact on Inno. Good riddance from their perspective, I'm sure. For me, with no financial investment in the game, the only loss is the time invested, time already lost anyway. Time that moving forward can certainly be invested in more fulfilling activities, activities that give me joy.

I'll give it a few weeks to see how I feel then. Either continue under a broken system, or delete my cities and move on. I'm still on the fence, we'll see.

Like GvG which doesn't have personal rewards?
 

DeletedUser16744

This has to be the biggest bunch of cry babies I have ever seen.
Big guilds getting bigger??? The limit is 80 for every guild, grow yours.
Small guilds getting smaller??? So much for the argument that small guilds are better.
Don't like the teaming up of guilds in GBG, then join up with other guilds and stop us. Or here is a novel idea, grow your city so that you can compete.
You cry babies should go hug a tree. This game is fair to all, everyone has a chance to be the best, no one is left out unless they decide on their own to do so.
Personal rewards are the problem ??????? Are you crazy?? You actually want to cut back personal rewards for those who have built there cities to make gains???? Lets just start handing out participation trophies so everyone gets to feel warm and fuzzy inside.
You complainers are just like those people in this game that cry when a hood player plunders them routinely, or when another guild takes all your tiles in GvG and blocks from getting off a map.
 

Algona

Well-Known Member
Can you show us when and where it was said that GBG was introduced for that reason?

Unfortunately INNO did say this in the Announcement of June 15, 2019:

"The feature should allow small and big guilds to compete fairly against one another.

There have been different suggestions around this topic and we consider the following way the most valuable path: Managing a big guild successfully takes a lot of effort and skill and Battlegrounds should reward going for this extra mile. This means that the more members a guild has, the more likely it is for them to get into higher leagues. Also, thanks to the league system, guilds will only fight against guilds of the same strength, so smaller guilds will fight against other small guilds "

That last sentence has led to a hell of a lot of wishful thinking and the complete misunderstanding that small Guilds would be able to compete at the highest levels of GBG.

No, I do not agree with or sympathize with the folk who are engaging in the wishful thinking and misunderstanding. I don;' see how that can be misread.

Despite showing people that or quoting extensively from anything INNO has posted regarding this, people continue to believe that GBG was designed to allow smaller Guild to compete at any level.

Then iIF!) they finally realize that GBG matchmaking is strictly based on performance so many want GBG changed instead of accepting reality and either adopting realistic expectations, adapting viable strategies, or making improvements to their Guild.

Same as it ever was.

----------

Taking diamonds and fp's out of the personal rewards might be a (partial) solution.

This is brilliant. Unfortunately:

Unfortunately it's not hard to see the negative effect this would have on Diamond expenditures.

This is true.

How about Instead of eliminate FPs and Diamonds, put a cap on the amount that can be earned per day?

I wonder if there is a cap number that could work to ensure GBG stay dynamic?

I doubt it, a new dance would evolve to work at getting to the cap number.

Hmmm. I'm seeing something here.

There seems to be an inherent flaw in GBG? Leastwise if you think that resource dancing is a flaw., that GBG should be dynamic and about battling for days on end. Which I do. I wonder if INNO sees it as a problem?

Sp what's the flaw?
 
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