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Cosmic Raven's HQS - Condensed

DeletedUser35195

I like it too much so I can't say enough good words for this! Great effort and good job! This gonna be the first thread I would post to my guildmates and friends when they have trouble designing cities. Meanwhile, there are two things I want to discuss here. First, Atomium is really not useful and it eats too much space, with the current version of the game(forge of arc), arc can produce way more goods for the guild and happiness is really not that important, so I think it's not a good GB that everyone should build. ( Similiar reason for FOD but its gonna lead a huge debate, so I will skip that for now) . Another thing i disagree with CR is that CE is a good stage to camp, in my opinion, even though the production building(one lane road type) is 5*5, it doesn't stop the age itself being a perfect stage to stay. A lot of people already said the reason in different threads, so I just gonna conclude it in a short version: GB produces PE goods which can be sold to a lot of newbies since PE has CF and traz which are very popular GBs. Unit can utilize AO very efficiently. GE can be finished by fighting only with a decent attack bonus.

Thanks for the kind words. I'm new to the HQS, and to the game in general, and I've enjoyed that implementing the HQS in my city has helped to feel that I'm not forced to juggle advancing on the tech tree and leveling GBs, and that it gives my gameplay a bit more direction and strategy. That also means that I'm not able to say much about the merits for or against building the Atomium, or how good an era is compared to another. I do think it's a little odd that LMA is completely skipped over (3x3 Breweries) while PE isn't skipped in the same way (6x3 Lamp Factories). Maybe that's because CA is supposed to be so much better than LMA with its smaller clockmakers? That's my best guess, but I can't be sure on that.

Anyway, I hope this is helpful to anyone who has read the original thread!
 
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DeletedUser29218

I'm a bit sad that you made so much effort to condense a flawed/incomplete strategy.
 

DeletedUser30900

I'm a bit sad that you made so much effort to condense a flawed/incomplete strategy.
You know if you call it flawed you have to kinda prove it. Everyone who trying to play better do arc rush but few of them actually realize how to utilize CF the best way and CR showed us a decent route.
 

DeletedUser26965

I'm a bit sad that you made so much effort to condense a flawed/incomplete strategy.
uh-oh you'll awaken the cult of HQ Raven followers, watch out.

kool-aid.png
 

DeletedUser35195

You know if you call it flawed you have to kinda prove it. Everyone who trying to play better do arc rush but few of them actually realize how to utilize CF the best way and CR showed us a decent route.

I would imagine Dulahan (HQS can’t join forum) writes that because he adapted his own version of working RQs, stating that one should park in HMA to build an arc and level it to 80. Whereas the HQS presented by CR is a comprehensive strategy about the strategic objectives (maximize and optimize a city's overall production efficiency, expedite a city's expansion rate, and expedite a city’s total progress advancement), Dulahan's objective is to level an Arc to 80 and afterward to power level military GBs, power level FP producing GBs, and power level the CF and then to "tech advance."

And Dulahan, while I appreciate the ideas you've presented about how to collect BPs for an arc and level it to 80, which I will be adapting for my own city, I hardly believe you can call CR's HQS a "flawed/incomplete" strategy when it's largely complimentary to the guide you posted. I personally appreciate the focus CR gives on leveling GBs to level 10 while also storing FP packs to be used for advancing in the tech tree, and to advance strategically in a tech sprint. I also appreciate the importance given to the CF, SMB, and LOA for working RQs, as well as the supporting role that GBs like the HS, CDM, and others have in spamming more and more RQs, as well as the focus on growing the space one has to develop through expansions paid by medals and diamonds. And I appreciate that his guide addresses objectives in ages beyond HMA or CA, as far as FE with dabs of AFE and OFE thrown in. None of this is to mention the attention he pays to fighting in GVG, GE, and PVP, since he was in a guild that fought GVG extensively.

CR’s guide is incomplete, there is no arguing that point. I would imagine you call CR's HQS flawed because he advocates to park in CA and not HMA, and that he does not focus on getting a level 80 Arc early in the game, am I correct?
 
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DeletedUser29218

You know if you call it flawed you have to kinda prove it. Everyone who trying to play better do arc rush but few of them actually realize how to utilize CF the best way and CR showed us a decent route.

Except I, more specifically others, already did?

The best player who followed the skeleton of CR's strategy is... Prisca? Despite learning on the go, the FP generation of my city was slightly larger than hers, without any diamonds purchased. If you want to compare players under closer conditions (new world, some $$ spent) you can check Thruthehead city. His purchases are less than half from Prisca's and I'm sure that when his acc becomes as old as Prisca's he'll have achieved, at least, 4 times more lvls in GBs.

I would imagine Dulahan (HQS can’t join forum) writes that because he adapted his own version of working RQs, stating that one should park in HMA to build an arc and level it to 80. Whereas the HQS presented by CR is a comprehensive strategy about the strategic objectives (maximize and optimize a city's overall production efficiency, expedite a city's expansion rate, and expedite a city’s total progress advancement), Dulahan's objective is to level an Arc to 80 and afterward to power level military GBs, power level FP producing GBs, and power level the CF and then to "tech advance."

And Dulahan, while I appreciate the ideas you've presented about how to collect BPs for an arc and level it to 80, which I will be adapting for my own city, I hardly believe you can call CR's HQS a "flawed/incomplete" strategy when it's largely complimentary to the guide you posted, and that CR's guide is significantly broader in focus in how to play the game compared to your guide. I personally appreciate the focus CR gives on leveling GBs to level 10 while also storing FP packs to be used for advancing in the tech tree, and to advance strategically in a tech sprint. I also appreciate the importance given to the CF, SMB, and LOA for working RQs, as well as the supporting role that GBs like the HS, CDM, and others have in spamming more and more RQs, as well as the focus on growing the space one has to develop through expansions paid by medals and diamonds. And I appreciate that his guide addresses objectives in ages beyond HMA or CA, as far as FE with dabs of AFE and OFE thrown in. None of this is to mention the attention he pays to fighting in GVG, GE, and PVP, since he was in a guild that fought GVG extensively.

CR’s guide is incomplete, there is no arguing that point. I would imagine you call CR's HQS flawed because he advocates to park in CA and not HMA, and that he does not focus on getting a level 80 Arc early in the game, am I correct?

I admit that CR's guide is good from a descriptive point of view, as he explained certain mechanics whose info was difficult to find elsewhere. However, from a strategic point of view it is terrible. Thus, in my opinion, the best compendium of CR "guide" would be limited to a description of the mechanics and ideas, without dwelving at all in the strategy side.

I won't deny that at first glance my guide can be seen as "less broad". Firstly, because I purposely didn't want to create duplicate info explaining too many basic mechanics, as I knew both guides would have similar audiences and I'm a fan of the "The good, if short, twice as good" idiom (I translated from Spanish, dunno if you have a similar version of it.

And secondly, because I aplied the Pareto principle, also called 80/20 which states that often times, 20% of the causes have 80% of the impact (althought in this case it looks closer to a 90/15). I'd rather fall short on the "causes" that fall short on the "impact". I'm also aware that there are some topics that haven't been adequately broken down such as city layout or what to do with 1000+ fps a day, but I think it is a separate topic that everyone should think on their own, and it is not intertwined with anything else from my guide.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

There is something that I want it to be skyclear: the objective in my guide was not and has never been to level up an arc to 80. It's true that the core of my guide is basically a method statement to get an early lvl 80 arc. However, getting a 80 arc is not the goal but a path, specifically it is THE path. The first objective of my guide is to build the most productive city mid and long term, just as CR is (at least in theory...). And the second objective is to encourage people to perform critical and analytical thinking.

The reason I call CR's guide flawed, is because his premises, and implicit hipothesis are partial and flawed.

His logic goes as follows. I want to max my city output --> RQs are one of the most efficient ways to produce goods, FPs and medals --> I'll improve RQs. Which is sort of okay. The problem is when he goes backwards and thinks that: max RQs --> maximize city output. And then his whole guide goes revolves around maximizing RQs.

Basically, he is solving the wrong problem. He is like a farmer that only focus on increasing his production and then half of its harvest rots because he hasn't found good distribution channels. Instead, he should try to maximize income ($$) and evaluate the impact of improving productivity, quality, distribution, price, etc. The same tunnel vision pollutes other aspects of the guide (e.g. GBs output at lvl 10 vs lvl 11 is poor, therefore all buildings should be lvled to 10).

Other than solving the wrong problem, he (and, as extension, his cult members) provides very poor advice in certain, obvious aspects (such as building dresden or atomium in colonial) and not so obvious aspects (such as camping colonial instead of HMA). However, the reason there was so much "CR hate" around the forums is his messiah attitude. It belongs to the human nature to do mistakes, it also belongs to the human nature not wanting to admit it, but gosh, in his case the last facet is otherwordly.

When I said I was sad that so much effort went into a flawed guide, I mean it. His guide had the potential to be insanely good, but ultimately the CR's ego was bigger that that potential. Maybe you can fulfill that potential, but for that I think you should stop "telling the CR tale" and focus on the contents.

I did LOTS of mistakes, but I don't go around recommending them. I also don't claim the strategy I describe there to be perfect, which allows the guide to grow, the door is open. Actually, since I made the guide, a topic that I had thought about but didn't consider it to be that relevant enough at first was brought to my attention. I'd go as far to say that it is likely that, planning a whole strategy around it since day 1 + a moderate spending in diamonds could lead to being #1 in the server by a long shot.

I don't feel entitled to reveal it, I wonder if that player will ever do so. What I can say though, is that if I were to start again now, I wouldn't camp in HMA, nor colonial, nor tech spring to the end of the ages.
 

DeletedUser29623

I am mostly just a spectator in this holy war, but I am very curious about what this additional topic could be, HQS!

I also appreciate this effort to condense the guide. In my main city, I have a small guild. My attachment to it is sentimental, and I’ve tried to convince the members to build GBs above their age, specifically the Arc and the CF, with very limited success. (One guy has done it.)

I don’t want to have to write a lengthy explanation of RQs and how they work every time someone lifts their head from the toy-soldier element of the game and wonders how I got so far ahead of them in points, goods and GBs. I don’t even follow CR’s guide, and have a pretty laid-back approach to the game. You can’t really refer people to CR’s guide because it is long-winded, dogmatic, and full of pompous philosophizing that makes it impenetrable to players for whom the idea of buying goods with FPs is a startling discovery.

My ONLY request with this guide is that the different quests be explained closer to the beginning. It is true that the essence of CR’s guide is to build the Chat, level it up and then construct the city to maximize the number of recurring quests you can do over and over again. This condensed version goes a long way toward explaining that more clearly, but when you’re dealing with people who don’t know what the different kinds of quests are or how to get and use recurring quests, that’s really the very first thing they need to have clarified. I know you’re following CR’s ordering of the content, but I think that this would improve it, especially in communicating with people who are very basic players.
 

DeletedUser28670

Essentially, Heavy Questing cherry picks information and takes out others.
For instance. CR gives you a list of GBs you want and do not want. Oh I'm sure I can figure that in the time it takes to read the pompous and overblown guide of Heavy Questing.

But Heavy Questing never even mentions how to get CF which is so essential to the strategy. Buying goods is not mentioned in ANY of CR's posts. It should have been in the first post.

So on with other information being cherrypicked and taken away.
Here's some exerpts from the HQS main guide that show the... pompous nature and cherrypicking of the guide.

Most players might not think of happiness as an in-game resource, but it certainly is. The psychological state of our citizens greatly impacts their production efficiency, which in turn affects our city's production of: coins , supplies, battle points, and rank points. Citizens produce at: 50% capacity when they are angry, 100% capacity when they are happy, and 120% capacity when they are enthused. Of all game mechanics within FoE, happiness has the most dramatic impact on the total value a city can produce per tile of land. We always want an enthused city, which requires happiness equal to, or greater than, 140% of our city's total population. Our demand for happiness is always 40% above our demand for population, which makes happiness a much more valuable resource than population. This mathematical relationship greatly influences many decisions in the heavy questing strategy. The more efficiently we can engineer more happiness into our city plan, the more land we have to produce more tangible resources on. It is imperative that we constantly plan how our city will provide more and more happiness, before we plan how we will add more population.
Wayyyyy too long.
Easy version,
"Happiness is an important resource. So plan your city to provide more and more happiness."
 

DeletedUser26965

lol, I suppose it's no surprise you have Marshall Applewhite as your avatar. But in all seriousness how anyone can walk away from that guilde and not think CR is an aspiring cult leader I do not know as it absolutely reeks of it and makes it for a difficult read except to the gullible who thinks someone has found "the secret". My guess is one could likely actually condense it by 80% and without all the sanctimonious, self righteous spattering throughout it. He's "THE coach" of recurring quests or so likes to paint himself, and his strategy, his guide, his decades long suffering work is presented to us, the lowly masses who will never fully comprehend the greatness of it all.
 

DeletedUser31308

the HQS presented by CR is a comprehensive strategy about the strategic objectives (maximize and optimize a city's overall production efficiency, expedite a city's expansion rate, and expedite a city’s total progress advancement)

This is where CR's HQS fails incredibly. As HQS pointed out, you can see that my city has advanced much more quickly than any city that followed HQS. By following HQS' guide, I am "maximiz[ing] and optimiz[ing] a city's overall production efficiency, expedit[ing[ a city's expansion rate and expedit[ing] a city's total progress advancement" to a much greater extent than anything CR's HQS was capable of. I'll illustrate:

My city is 201 days into a world that is 201 days old, Yorkton. I have a level 80 Arc, and a level 10 CF. Since hitting level 80 on my Arc, I have easily been able to push up one age per week without my FP bank decreasing and without running out of goods. In the past 4 days (I moved to indy 4 days ago), I produced 4000 Indy goods from recurring quests without any UBQs. And with very minimal collect coins quests and only the very limited 24 hr production quests that gunsmiths allow. My LoA is level 4, same with my SMB, and I honestly won't touch them again until I have no other good GBs to push through the sweet spot because the vast majority of coin/supply I get is from Spend FP quests. I make over a million coin/supply a day from those quests alone, why would I care if my gunsmith 24hr production gave me a little bit more? Yet CR didn't even conceptualize that this kind of output was possible, he had no idea what the Arc was capable of, and how it makes nearly every other building in your city useless in comparison.

There are people in my world doing strict HQS by the way, and I've kept tabs on them. They are currently in Colonial, with level 10 CFs, still working on pushing up their LoAs and SMBs to level 10. I'd be there too if I'd followed this guide. Instead, I'm producing hundreds of FP a day (could be thousands if I didn't have a day job), a thousand goods a day, and I'm on track to remain in the top 10 players on this world until I no longer have interest in this game.

Edit: I forgot to mention, on the point of expediting expansion rate, that I had completed all of the medal expansions before leaving HMA and before even hitting level 80 on my Arc. The 313 medals I get from Indy quests pales against the 3 million medals sitting in my inventory already with nothing to spend them on.
 
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DeletedUser31308

Just asking but have you bought diamonds?
Seeing as you read the other thread, I know this is not asked genuinely, but more so to be used against me or against HQS' strategy. Without the diamonds I bought, I would have reached my current point after an additional 2 months, a figure I came to by using my FP production at the time and the cost of goods in this world to see how long I'd have to have saved for the goods I bought with diamonds. It is a generous figure, as it doesn't take into account FP production from snipes. That FP production from snipes, also, dwarfs the income from the 30 SoKs I got from the winter event.

It should be obvious that even in 2 months, strict HQSers will not have caught up to me. I posit that even in 6 months, they will not have close to level 80 Arcs, or the goods production and medal expansions I have. I say this having played briefly on older worlds with players who had worked HQS for over a year. They were just starting to rush or had just finished the rush from CA to ME in order to quest with Hatters, some with level 10 Arcs, none with medal expansions completed.
 

DeletedUser26965

Seeing as you read the other thread, I know this is not asked genuinely, but more so to be used against me or against HQS' strategy.
Don't be so touchy and assumptive. It was a genuine question. I was gone for a long while from the forums but reading back through this guide Dulahan's guidelines to lvl 80 arc rush (and beyond), starting from bronze age I saw that one girl constantly bragging about greatness but barely mentioning the fact she bought diamonds, I looked at her city and with all those SoK's and CBS's it was obvious though of course I don't know the progression. I mean if someone spent 100,000 diamonds can you really compare them to someone who spent none? So that was partly on my mind and when I read about someone else's great advances, I think to myself, hey wait, did they spend diamonds? because I think that's a pretty important factor to mention regarding stuff like that. And I don't need further ammo to speak out against that CR guide, it does all that for me.
 

DeletedUser31308

Don't be so touchy and assumptive. It was a genuine question.
Sorry, I believed you had read through the entirety of the guide when you posted "Man I missed a lot of fun on this guide. One thing I've learned is if you spend a lot of money to buy a lot of special buildings you can level GB's really fast."
 

DeletedUser26965

Sorry, I believed you had read through the entirety of the guide when you posted "Man I missed a lot of fun on this guide. One thing I've learned is if you spend a lot of money to buy a lot of special buildings you can level GB's really fast."
Yes, I focused mostly on that girl posting and the responses to her, that seemed to be the main thrust of it anyway, and the funnest part. So no, I didn't read every single comment and investigate stuff.
 

DeletedUser29726

One thing that's often glossed over in the eternal arguments over 'best strategy for longterm success' is that most people won't be around longterm enough for the differences to matter. Difference in playtime, patience, and endurance tend to be what leads to a server's leaders longterm - moreso than knowledge, strategy, or diamond purchases. Avoid the worst mistakes, get to endgame, and don't quit/pseudoquit before the other guys - watch your ranking rise.
 

DeletedUser31308

One thing that's often glossed over in the eternal arguments over 'best strategy for longterm success' is that most people won't be around longterm enough for the differences to matter. Difference in playtime, patience, and endurance tend to be what leads to a server's leaders longterm - moreso than knowledge, strategy, or diamond purchases. Avoid the worst mistakes, get to endgame, and don't quit/pseudoquit before the other guys - watch your ranking rise.
I'd say they're glossed over for a reason - it's impossible to account for those things in every discussion of strategy. In order to discuss the merits of one strategy vs another, you sort of have to assume the all-else-being-equal. That said, yes, it doesn't matter how efficiently you play if you burn out within a couple months.
 

DeletedUser29726

I'd say they're glossed over for a reason - it's impossible to account for those things in every discussion of strategy. In order to discuss the merits of one strategy vs another, you sort of have to assume the all-else-being-equal. That said, yes, it doesn't matter how efficiently you play if you burn out within a couple months.

Which makes the most important aspect of any strategy how you're going to have fun so you want to keep playing (and playing more per day) ;)
 

DeletedUser35195

lol, I suppose it's no surprise you have Marshall Applewhite as your avatar. But in all seriousness how anyone can walk away from that guilde and not think CR is an aspiring cult leader I do not know as it absolutely reeks of it and makes it for a difficult read except to the gullible who thinks someone has found "the secret". My guess is one could likely actually condense it by 80% and without all the sanctimonious, self righteous spattering throughout it. He's "THE coach" of recurring quests or so likes to paint himself, and his strategy, his guide, his decades long suffering work is presented to us, the lowly masses who will never fully comprehend the greatness of it all.

About the avatar, I thought that I needed to lighten up a little. I don't want to get so serious that I can't laugh at myself from time to time.

And while I didn't come away with the same intensity of feeling at what CR wote that came across to some as being sanctimonious or self-righteous, I also was not the one it was directed at, like you and others had been. So I suppose that I have no right to comment on that, because I never was the object at which it was directed. He was, no doubt, proud of his HQS and the conclusions that he came to, and said enough times that if you were to deviate from his guide that you are not a true HQSer.

OK, on second thought, that does sound rather cultish.

As for me, I'm 118 days into the game, with one city (not including the one that I am not paying any attention to whatsoever). Finding the HQS about a month ago was helpful for me because up until that point I felt like I had no real strategy, and that I was going to have to slog through the game for years until getting any respectable GBs or progress in the tech tree. At that point, it was all about getting to OFE, which was daunting to me in terms of how much time that would take and how slow progress would go. And I actually found Dulahan's guide to the level 80 Arc rush first. From the testimonials of people like @ThruTHEhead and what success he has seen that he posted on that forum, I actually do intend to deviate from CR's guide and to rush my Arc to level 80. I also appreciated what @doardeproba wrote in post #1071 of CR's guide about GBs and how he disagreed with CR. I will probably follow that guidance some as well.

Because I'm so new to the game, I don't feel that I have enough experience to comment much on how successful one strategy is over another. I have learned from many in the time since finding these forums, and my hope was to learn from them. I have clicked on two guides (CR's and Dulahan's) almost daily, focusing mostly on what the OP had to say and much less so on comments others have made. In doing so it was easy enough to try to summarize what CR's guide says, even if I don't plan to follow it exactly. For example, I was super lucky with the Spring Event this year and got all 5 pieces up to level 2, and I don't intend to put them away anytime soon. Also, when I sprint to CA next week, I will already have an Arc, I won't have a CDM (and won't build it anytime soon), but I will be laying down a ToR. But what I most appreciate about CR's guide is that he gives a strategy for how to work through the ages, something which I do intend to follow, especially once I leave CA (whenever that will be, right?!?).
 
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