Did the Arc Improve the Game?

Discussion in 'Forge Hall' started by lemur, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. lemur

    lemur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    It seems rather clear that the Arc has been a tool to increase the disparity of wealth in the game. Since Thursday evening, I watched a player collaborate with "Arc friends" to raise his Château eight levels in 36 hours. This sort of maneuvering is normal among the new elite of the game. For mere mortals, such an advancement would take two months or longer.

    Rich players certainly love a Great Building that has made them rich — by allowing them to leverage their Forge Point wealth into greater and greater amounts. This appreciation of the Arc is much like the Wall Street broker who sings the praises of capitalism.

    But what about the rest of the players? Is being continually sniped and stomped by the rich supposed to be fun? I'm wondering why InnoGames introduced this Great Building last year. What were they thinking? That an increased disparity of wealth would encourage the average player to stay? That it would somehow increase the pressure for diamond sales?

    Among the players who quit the game every month, it would be interesting to see how many did so because of the way that the Arc so radically changed the game.


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    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  2. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

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    Nov 8, 2017
    I'm not rich and I snipe all the time. I built up my Arc to make that more fun for me. So... I don't know about you, but I'm loving my Arc... and like I said... I'm not rich! I think the Arc is just another part of the game. Older players remember a time without it, so it's easier to reflect on how it has changed the game, while post-Arc players don't know a game without it, and so we just play with it being a part of the experience. I can't speak to the opinion of the former as I started after the Arc was introduced, but when I realized that the Arc would make my sniping enjoyment that much better, I decided to get one and level that sucker up!
     
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  3. lemur

    lemur Well-Known Member

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    Dec 15, 2014
    What is your current combined total of Forge Points in circulation and those sitting in your inventory? I suspect that your Forge Point wealth puts you easily in the top 1 percent of players — and perhaps even in the top 0.1 percent.
    .
     
  4. Stephen Longshanks

    Stephen Longshanks Forum Moderator

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    May 8, 2015
    For once we're on the same page, lemur. The ones with the highly advanced Arcs talk about how hard they worked to get it there, but it seems that they are the same players that were already well advanced and most of them big spenders. I think your point about just making the "wealth" gap bigger is a valid one. Seems to me like the Arc is the FoE version of trickle down economics. Great for the already wealthy, but zilch for the masses.
     
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  5. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

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    Nov 8, 2017
    I earned most of those forge points the hard way... the traditional way... and I put them to use now using my Arc that I also earned. My Arc is barely starting to make me profits, but we're talking single to very low double digits. I believed you meant "rich" to mean diamond players. If you want forge points, you can do as I did... I spent no diamonds accumulating them. You actually sound jealous, which I know you to be a better person than that. What would you have me do... give away all the forge points I worked hard to accumulate so it's more "fair" to you? And don't pretend you don't use your Arc to snipe top rewards, because I know that to be true. You pay higher than the stated reward and get a profit from it, just like the rest of us. The difference is that you didn't work on building up a forge point inventory and some of us did. I anticipated wanting to actually use the Arc. You parked yourself in LMA and worked on your Château.

    For the record, lemur's Arc is higher than mine. LOL We're in the same guild. And his Château is massive (currently 420%). You don't hear me complaining about the mega riches you have in goods and other resources due to your proper and legal use of it, given the amount of effort you put into getting it there. And in fact you have high-level Arc players donating to your Château to keep it moving up, which would be very unlikely without the Arc. How do you like that 420% bonus?

    I started playing this game just over a year ago and am in HMA. I built my Arc in Iron Age. What's my excuse? Did I somehow "cheat the system"? Would you call me "advanced" or a "big spender" with the $40 I put into this game early on before GE made diamonds much easier to actually just earn?
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  6. Achaeus 167 the proud

    Achaeus 167 the proud Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2016
    I agree with Lemur, as I have seen the disparity and frustration created by the Arc cause nothing but hard feelings within guilds, and being used as a threat by other players to snipe someone they are angry at, which in the end only causes additional hard feelings within a guild. I understand that some players have worked hard to raise their Arc and continue to do so, but it is the sniping that is the issue. If we can create Guild Only trades, why not allow us to have Guild only swaps on our GB's too? And before someone says "...but then someone in your own guild will snipe it", I have to say there are guilds out there where people respect each other and do not do that. Perhaps they are rare, but they do exist and to be part of one makes playing this game a pleasure rather than a frustration. There are also players with higher level Arc's who use them respectfully without sniping other players who have worked hard to get into a 1st or 2nd place slot of a GB. I believe Inno needs to begin to address this issue sooner rather than latter!
     
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  7. Stephen Longshanks

    Stephen Longshanks Forum Moderator

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    May 8, 2015
    You are strictly speaking to your situation, while lemur and I are talking about the game as a whole.

    Incidentally, if you got your Arc in Iron Age, you neither built it nor worked for it. It was basically gifted to you by higher players. I know this because that's how I got an Arc in EMA on one world. (I have Arcs on 3 worlds, by the way.)
     
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  8. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

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    Nov 8, 2017
    Lemur responded to me directly and "subtly" accused me of being part of the problem.
     
  9. Stephen Longshanks

    Stephen Longshanks Forum Moderator

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    May 8, 2015
    And you "subtly" avoided his question. Although, in actuality you answered it by defending your riches rather than deny them. LOL

    And, you were the one that responded to his post about the game as a whole by talking about your specific situation. So to "subtly" imply that he made this about you is disingenuous.
     
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  10. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

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    Nov 8, 2017
    I didn't avoid anything as he was being rhetorical. He knows how many FPs I have... as I said, we're in the same guild. It's not a secret there. But what do I have to defend? I did nothing wrong. You also lumped me in when you said:

    So it's not like you "weren't" speaking about me. I have nothing to defend as I worked hard to get where I am for a specific purpose. So did everyone else... for their own purposes. Why would you say my situation is different than his Château situation? I don't whine about people building up their Kraken or Arctic Orangery to win easier. I don't whine about people building up their Zeus/CoA/CdM to attack easier. I don't whine about people building up their SBC/Deal to defend stronger. I don't whine about the many FPs people get by leveling up all their FP-producing GBs. They have a distinct edge over me in generating "free" forge points daily. This all just sounds like jealousy because people like me worked hard to build up a stockpile of forge points to be able to use, not unlike people building up a stockpile of military units and guilds building up a stockpile of goods... for GvG. Should that be watered down?
     
  11. Stephen Longshanks

    Stephen Longshanks Forum Moderator

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    May 8, 2015
    I'm not going to argue your specific situation with you. I play on multiple worlds, and I have for almost 3 years, and I have seen what the impact of the Arc has been. As lemur stated in the original post, it has widened the gap between the wealthy (in game terms) players and the rest of us. Players like you are the few who are in between, kind of like the middle class that we used to have in the USA, and why you rush to defend a system that only benefits the select few is beyond me.
     
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  12. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

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    Nov 8, 2017
    I defend the notion that was put forth. I have that right since it relates to me. If you don't wish to address me specifically, then don't lump me in with the rest of them. But by making sweeping statements, you do. And I don't see anything wrong with using the Arc as intended, just as I don't see using the Alcatraz, Château, etc. as intended.

    No, it absolutely was not and lemur can even back me up on that. I earned it. I paid for my goods the same way others did, including lemur. Don't assume.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  13. lemur

    lemur Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2014
    I am one of the wealthy players. So, no, jealousy cannot be a factor here.

    You are misreading my original message as if I had posted a complaint about the behavior of certain players. What I actually did was to question whether a new building was good for the game. Notice that I titled the thread, "Did the Arc Improve the Game?" not "Are Players Using the Arc Wrong?"

    I referred to "Forge Point wealth" in my original message, and then you claimed that you were not rich — which is not true.
    .
     
  14. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

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    Nov 8, 2017
    Fair enough, but I did say that I know you to be better than that... I simply meant that it sounded that way.

    Well, I'm not the only one reading it wrong because people are agreeing with you in the way I thought you meant it.

    As I said, I thought you meant "rich" in the terms that many often do... the diamond players... and therefore wanted to defend my forge points as "earned" and not "bought". I don't deny having a large forge point stash.

    ====================

    Let me put it a different way (and whenever I say "you" below, I am referring to those who think sniping is unfair/bad).

    I feel like this game has many ways to play that everyone can take advantage of, but you have to choose which ones you want to go after. Others will go after other ways. That creates an inevitable imbalance, but it exists for everyone in different ways.

    I don't feel the same way about swap threads as you and others do. I feel that they are a slow crawl and that leaves them open to being sniped... by literally anyone, Arc or not. But the point of them is to spend your forge points in the "hopes" of a reward, not a guaranteed one. A sniper also wants rewards, but prefers to play the "quick" way vs. that slow crawl. This game allows for any reward to be won in any way.

    Has the Arc made this worse? Perhaps. I won't argue that it hasn't made sniping those rewards easier, but it's not like you couldn't snipe before... you just had to wait longer for it to level up a bit more. If you say "well that gives us enough time to make it not worth it"... well what says you can't do that now? You are choosing to go slow to maximize your return, but you could also go faster to lock up the rewards on those swap threads.

    You don't want to do that, and you want everyone to leave you alone to slowly crawl up, but aren't neighbors supposed to be your enemies? Why would they just be content to let you do that, but be ok with getting attacked an plundered? This game is about finding ways to one-up the next guy in some ways. So a neighbor sniping a reward... that seems very "ok" to me in that sense.

    You probably don't agree. That's fine. I'm only putting in my 2¢ about it.

    I do feel like everyone wants to make the game easier for themselves in one way or another... get rid of/nerf the Arc... make AI go after rogues last... GvG is unfair... clicking to Aid is too much work... clicking to get rid of the recurring quests you don't wanna do takes too much time. These are some of the ways the game is being requested to be made easier. I just don't know why people (not saying that you're one of them) come to play this game, only to ask for it to be made easier when they run into something that seems unfair. :-/
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
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  15. Lord Muggle

    Lord Muggle Well-Known Member

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    Mar 2, 2017
    The Arc has allowed players to level a new great building from 0-100 within a matter of days.
    Does that improve the game? Inno gives out a new great building, and the elite level it from 0-100.... and gain back the inventory FPs they lost by the time Inno makes a new GB?

    I think not. The Arc hasn't improved the game at all.
     
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  16. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

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    Nov 8, 2017
    Ok, but that's only one way the Arc has impacted the game and I won't deny that it's 100% true, though not really as fast as you think since the Arc is only really deadly in about half of that range. You still gotta take some real losses up to about level 30 and then from about 75 up.
     
  17. Lord Muggle

    Lord Muggle Well-Known Member

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    Mar 2, 2017
    No, Salsuero, there was a thread about the highest Kraken when it started. I can guarantee you that in less than 48 hours, the highest level Kraken belonged to the highest ranking player, who had his Kraken at level 100 within 48 hours. He stated himself that that was only 1/3 of his inventory FP stock. I'm pretty sure that he'll have that earned back by the time the next GB comes out.

    Do we want to make the rich richer? Do we really need new GBs being leveled to 100 in just a few days?
     
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  18. lemur

    lemur Well-Known Member

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    Dec 15, 2014
    My experience on ParkDog is a large part of what motivated me to write. I founded a guild there three years ago. We never had more than about 40 players, because we had a rule that members must motivate the old-fashioned way within the guild — so as to ensure the motivation of Halls of Fame. That rule paid off well, and today we are on the verge of reaching Level 34 (with 4 extra Forge Points) despite our small size. But there was always a slow trickle of attrition by players who preferred to use the "Aid" button across the board.

    Over the past year, however, the attrition has been too great to match with new recruits, and now we are reduced to only 8 players. I have seen several instances where it was the Arc that was the final straw. Players aren't only leaving our guild; they're leaving the game altogether. They have written comments similar to the one by Vagabond above. These are "respectable middle class" players — typically having reached the vicinity of the Modern Era and having acquired (and advanced) a dozen Great Buildings and more than a million game points.

    I feel like a wealthy hotel owner surrounded by a vanishing middle class — who are falling prey to financial speculators. I do recognize, however, that my experience is not necessarily representative of a game with thousands of players. So my view of whether the Arc is bad for the game remains a question, rather than a conclusion.
    .
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2017
  19. Stephen Longshanks

    Stephen Longshanks Forum Moderator

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    May 8, 2015
    And to me it is neither a question or a conclusion, but a fact. Whether everyone wants to acknowledge it or not doesn't change that. And Lord Muggle's point about when the Kraken was released is right to the point. No one but the already wealthy (in game terms) players were in on that bonanza. This is a big part of the reason that I pay absolutely no attention to global ranking. It's meaningless. They had taken a step in the right direction when they reworked the ranking points system, but them took 3 giant steps back with the Arc. So, I just play my game and basically ignore those players with the lofty GBs. And I certainly don't look to them for game advice, because they have no clue how to play the game without their advantages. (And I know that there are actually 2 groups of the "wealthy", the ones that bought it and the ones that have been playing 4 or more years.)

    This is just revisionist history. Sniping before the Arc was nowhere near the proportions it is now. And I would lay you odds that anyone who disagrees with that undoubtedly has a high level Arc. :D
     
  20. stallion119

    stallion119 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2016
    What is everyone planning on doing with 4500 FP in inventory?
    This game will crash before people use their 20 million medals and 16,000 FP from a level 80 Arc.
    The Arc has changed the game, I would argue for the worse. There is a bigger gap among players, to the point that 1 player can effectively control 80% of a world
     

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