Did the Arc Improve the Game?

[DeletedUser27889]

I always hear a lot of talk about the arc being bad but see no examples of it that make any sense to me.

Person is leveling their GBs on their own or via swaps, big arc comes in snipes first and donates many more than they could other wise. Owner gets free FP, contributors pay less for their spots, arc profits some. What's the issue for anyone?

For most saying arcs don't help the little guys, my contribution list would beg to differ. It's full of people who self leveled and before arc I could give 30 points to get 35, now I can give 54 to get 63.

I mean maybe I'm not 'using mine correctly' but everyone around me benefits and the only people who lose out would be those with ridiculous entitlement complexes. 'I took your 20 point swap what do you mean I got bumped out of a 30FP position?' Actually I've yet to meet the person who believes that but that's the scenario I keep picturing when this arc conversation keeps coming up. How is plundering- taking something away from a player, Okay because it's via the game rules but arcs- giving players something via the game rules wrong?

Case in point the example made here. How in the world is it detrimental to the OPs game that someone else has a high level Chat? I don't mean to sound at all disrespectful of others opinions but it just comes off as whiney to take issue with how another player has chosen to play their game. I could sort of understand high level military GBs on a plunderer/arc player combo in your hood but a Chat doesn't affect anyone else at all.

 

[Algona]

Great topic lemur.

Full disclaimer, I'm not being holier then thou, I've been working on and with my Arc since it's dominance was forst pointed out to me in early 2016.

Arc is not bad for the game, it's worse then that. I think in a few years we'll look back and identify Arc as the incredibly stupid mistake INNO made that killed FoE.

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Arc accelerates obtaining the 'infinite Chateau' level. Pre Arc it would be a matter of years except for a very few players. Now any player can do it and in a relatively short time. And as more powered Arcs and infinite Chateaus enter the game the process of players acquiring infinite Chateaues will accelerate.

Medals production through Arc power leveling has made all other forms of Medals acquisition insignificant by an order of magnitude.

The Arc FP Rewards Bonus affects every GB Reward situation in the game.

Arc has separated players into four groups: Arc-less, low level Arcs, Arcs being powered, fully powered Arc holders. Each group is easily dominated in multiple aspects of the game by those further in the process. This separation is unique in this game; there is no other aspect that can effect the game in so many ways.

I'll be happy to discuss what I see as the ramifications of each of the above, bur first I invite each of you to consider each of these and determine if you think those effects are good for the game.

I won't debate whether these effects are real, they are readily apparent to any serious student of the game who has been around since Pre Arc days.

 

[DeletedUser]

Well, here's the story behind the story. These long-time players, the ones I refer to as the "rich getting richer" with the Arc? They have a second advantage over the rest of us that works hand in glove with the Arc. That is that they played for a long, long time with FP rewards going into inventory as packs, and not to the bar. So the thousands of FPs they talk about having in inventory? They came from a different game paradigm, and not from the Arc...to begin with, at least. So they had a huge advantage over later players when the Arc came out. And many took full advantage of that. Without the Arc, the disparity of them having the huge FP inventory would have eventually evened out. With the Arc, the disparity widens. Every day. There is no way to catch up.

Now, all that being said, I still don't care about ranking or points. But the question was "Did the Arc improve the game?", and it has not. A game isn't improved when long time players who already have a built in advantage from that playing time along with more beneficial playing rules for most of it, get an additional advantage that pretty much locks in their advantage for the foreseeable future. If you do care about ranking, too bad, you won't catch them. Not without spending a significant amount of real money, anyway.

 

[DeletedUser29563]

I don't mean to sound at all disrespectful of others opinions but

Never respect anyone's opinion...if you do not agree. You must however...respect their right to that opinion.
Make sense?

 

[Freshmeboy]

In answer to you Algona, your points are a positive for players using the Arc as a focal point of their game versus those that don't...the opportunity is there for all if they but choose it. At its essence, the Arc does what hundreds of thousands of dollars would do...It allows players to achieve the highest levels of the game and land acquisition in the space of years rather than decades...It keeps players who have reached the endgame playing rather than leaving due to boredom. People want and need lofty goals to continue playing this game and INNO has given them the outlet. What game would survive if its life span is a couple years before it grows stale and players leave in droves...? Yes, the Arc had a hefty imbalance at the outset, the reason being the late era it took to get one ...but that is changing quickly as its exponential power grows. All that means is players will have an advantage over their predecessors who had to slog through years of swaps, snipes and battles without it to achieve strength while they can reap the benefits much sooner. That's good for everyone...new players, new guilds, etc.

 

[DeletedUser29563]

I always hear a lot of talk about the arc being bad but see no examples of it that make any sense to me.

Person is leveling their GBs on their own or via swaps, big arc comes in snipes first and donates many more than they could other wise. Owner gets free FP, contributors pay less for their spots, arc profits some. What's the issue for anyone?

For most saying arcs don't help the little guys, my contribution list would beg to differ. It's full of people who self leveled and before arc I could give 30 points to get 35, now I can give 54 to get 63.

I mean maybe I'm not 'using mine correctly' but everyone around me benefits and the only people who lose out would be those with ridiculous entitlement complexes. 'I took your 20 point swap what do you mean I got bumped out of a 30FP position?' Actually I've yet to meet the person who believes that but that's the scenario I keep picturing when this arc conversation keeps coming up. How is plundering- taking something away from a player, Okay because it's via the game rules but arcs- giving players something via the game rules wrong?

Case in point the example made here. How in the world is it detrimental to the OPs game that someone else has a high level Chat? I don't mean to sound at all disrespectful of others opinions but it just comes off as whiney to take issue with how another player has chosen to play their game. I could sort of understand high level military GBs on a plunderer/arc player combo in your hood but a Chat doesn't affect anyone else at all.

Totally agree with you Manda....first of all this is a great topic and conversation..so thank you Lemur. But I wonder if again...like the plundering discussion we had earlier this week...is this about the Arc...or is this more about the human condition.
I'm not speaking towards Lemur...he has an interesting point of view. Especially being such an accomplished Arc player himself.
No..Arc doesn't benefit every player equally. But neither does Zeus...or Babel..or any other GB. One could argue that a player with a level 150 TOR..receiving 9 to 15 Jade relics a week as being "unfair". What if all of them were terrace farms?
The Arc is not the issue here...the issue is our own feelings and fears of social inequality. I firmly believe Inno has gotten the result from Arc that they wanted. Had it not been introduced...the GB landscape would look radically different. And with that comes redundancy...especially for players such as LLQ. What Arc has done...is taken this game..thru the evolution of GB leveling potential....to new heights. It has evolved..and molded it to something new. And from that view...for me..it has improved the game.
Now for the long time player advantage. That point has some validity. But this game is not ending anytime soon. Rich is rich....even if its not as rich as Joe shmo down the road. Its still rich. Whether Arc is good for the game or not is a matter of opinion. But I think..at least Inno believed..it was necessary for the game.

 

[DeletedUser27889]

Ah I believe I understand, it's more the over arching (<-punz) arc abilities on the whole game and not the individual transactions that are being debated?

Still, my mind sways on the opinion that arc is good for the game. The game has already gone far past the historical ages and we are now embarking on the 5th (FIFTH!) expansion of OF. The game in it's raw form is stale. Virtually each era is a repeat of the previous with a different look as is.

It's my belief that without the ability to highly level GBs, without Arc and without the sweet spot found in GBs making them easier to level many long standing players would have been long gone. Out of nothing but sheer bordom. @LacLongQuan would most likely have a better perspective being a long standing end game player but if not for Gbs what would be left for him to even do in the game? And more so, what would be worth paying for?

Arc and GB leveling also greatly increases the social aspect of the game. At least for me it has.

The infinite chat issue is quite valid. Though, that would be more of a Chat breaking the game and not Arc issue. I could be mistaken but I believe infinite chat is not a reality yet, no one has gotten there it is only what some have extrapolated the boost to be based on it's estimated increases. Chat could very well have a nerf like Arc does at a certain level and we wont know until someone gets there. If it doesn't then with all the talk of 'infinite chateau' on these boards and in game you can blame no one but inno for it when it happens. They have been given all the warning in the world and time to put in a late level nerf if they drop the ball on it don't blame the arc players blame inno.

So while I don't think arc is breaking the game I think it is changing the game. For the players who have been around for years getting through historical eras and into the future I don't think they'd still be around without it. GvG is dying, FP farms are boring if you have nothing to use them on, events get more and more stingy as time goes by. The game had to find something new to entice people, and it did. Death and evolution may appear the same at first. If you look at any of the feedback for a new era 80% of the posts are about whatever the new GB is. This tells me most players find the GBs more compelling then the tech tree 'game' FoE once was. I take that to mean GB leveling is the savior of FoE for end game players.

Interesting topic.

Never respect anyone's opinion...if you do not agree. You must however...respect their right to that opinion.
Make sense?

That is a very insightful and thought provoking sentiment. Truly one of the best things I've ever read on these boards and you are absolutely correct.

 

[DeletedUser29055]

From my point of view. The arc gave long term player new goals and new players the feeling they can actually have a chance to catch up to long term players. So, i agree with Manda here ...

 

[Salsuero]

Each group is easily dominated in multiple aspects of the game by those further in the process.

I never felt this way when I didn't have an Arc, I didn't feel this way when my Arc was lower-level, and I don't feel this way with my Arc only being a bit over halfway to level 80. I'm sorry, but I just can't agree at all with that statement. I'm not desiring an argument. I simply never had an issue with anyone else's Arc and was able to amass my "forge point wealth" despite those Arcs being in the game. :-/

 

[ITown]

"The rich getting richer" is a nice excuse but completely misses the mark.

Actually, Arc is the ultimate equalizer. It makes it possible for players like me, who have spent next to nothing on the game ($30) to dominate over diamond mega-spenders who can't be bothered to build/use their Arc. It rewards active play, much as GvG does.

Incidentally, it also makes it extremely easy to be competitive in GvG without spending any diamonds on rogue hideouts and healing.

So, if anything, this game has had the opposite effect as was stated earlier: Arc has enabled the have-nots to be competitive.

 

[DeletedUser25166]

From my point of view. The arc gave long term player new goals and new players the feeling they can actually have a chance to catch up to long term players. So, i agree with Manda here ...

New players and Arc’s below 20 players will never catch up. That’s the point, there is a huge disparity in the game, the only GB to do this

 

[Freshmeboy]

Catch up to what Stallion....? A player who has been here for 4 years...? Why should they...? What game allows noobs to gather strength to compete against long term players....? The Arc just allows noobs to gain strength quicker and reach those same lofty goals without looking at the numbers, sighing, and quitting the game. They can be superstars in their guild, in their hood and their age. Eventually, those long termers will leave..attrition will set in and today's noob is tomorrows' world rankings leader...happens all the time...

 

[DeletedUser25166]

Catch up to what Stallion....? A player who has been here for 4 years...? Why should they...? What game allows noobs to gather strength to compete against long term players....? The Arc just allows noobs to gain strength quicker and reach those same lofty goals without looking at the numbers, sighing, and quitting the game. They can be superstars in their guild, in their hood and their age. Eventually, those long termers will leave..attrition will set in and today's noob is tomorrows' world rankings leader...happens all the time...

How about 1 year players with old timers having level 80 Arc leveling them up?

 

[DeletedUser29563]

How about 1 year players with old timers having level 80 Arc leveling them up?

I think what @freshmeboy is saying...and please correct me if I'm wrong...is that the cycle of attrition eventually shifts the playing field. I get that there are players..that are light years ahead of the player mass. But "most"of them eventually move on. And the next generation moves up.
The only "real" limitations a player has in this game..are those that he/she places upon themselves.
I personally have no expectations or desires to "catch" players like @LacLongQuan. What I want to do is put myself in a position to be his predecessor.

 

[qaccy]

This is a big part of the reason that I pay absolutely no attention to global ranking. It's meaningless. They had taken a step in the right direction when they reworked the ranking points system, but them took 3 giant steps back with the Arc.

I just want to correct this one point (even though it was made forever ago), in that the Future Era was introduced before the ranking points rework rather than the other way around.

Anyway, back on-topic, my stance remains that the Arc simply provides too much of a benefit. That is to say, the baseline effect of boosting GB contribution rewards is fine, but that's such a powerful effect that being a 90% increase at level 80 is far too much in my opinion. It should be more like 50%, tops. The developers tried to 'balance' it before release by setting specific levels past 10 where its growth changes (the only GB until the Kraken that did this), but it was nowhere near enough and they still ended up being too generous with it. It's not necessarily their fault if they got the numbers wrong, we've seen that happen numerous times before and I don't think even the most optimistic people expected the Arc to have this much of an impact on the game when it first came in (although it was immediately deemed a powerful GB).

Essentially though, my big problem with it boils down to not the Arc itself, but how the majority of people use it outside of those 'elite Arc clubs'. I've seen guild members leave guilds over being walked on by other members with a big Arc, those Arc owners themselves being removed from guilds for doing it, and people being removed from friend lists just to avoid the problems caused by the use of this GB. On most servers, there is no shortage of big Arcs looking to line their pockets with whatever FPs they can snatch up. It's apalling to me when some of these people try to claim that they're 'helping' others when they take advantage of their Arc bonus but only do so by sniping others or providing less than their full bonus. While to some small degree that may be true, again, there are many other people who could have filled that spot just as easily, and some of them (like myself) would have done so with their maximum Arc bonus. If you're skimming off the top when you take a GB spot, you're helping yourself as much as if not more than you're helping the GB owner, by virtue of the fact that if you didn't take the spot, someone else would have so your specific Arc was never 'needed' to take that spot.

Anyway, my belief is that the Arc needs a nerf just to put the exceptionally greedy players in check. 1% per level up to 10, .5% per level until 58, then .1% per level after that. 19% at level 10, 43% at level 58, 45.2% at level 80. Almost exactly half the effect compared to now, and I feel like that's what'd be needed to curb the behavior of a lot of Arc owners. It would also go back to being impossible to lock in a spot on a freshly-levelled GB, which is another issue as well which pertains more to overall game balance.

 

[DeletedUser25795]

If people feel the ARC is overpowered: Build one yourselves and secondly you can see how many 10000's of FP's it takes to level it high. I must have invested over 20,000 FP's on mine already and had very high ARC players take top 2 spots for most levels. You need to invest a lot to get it to say level 30 including getting 20 full sets of blueprints. Once it gets to mid 30's to mid 60's its better, then it gets steep again to level it.

I would admit the medals received is a lot compared to other GB's but there is nothing stopping EVERYONE from building their own ARC.

Snipping is a problem but that has always been the case (maybe at a lesser amount), for example someone wants a BP from a certain GB they will snipe to get it.

I can only talk from my own experiences. On my server/hood/friends list it helps people level their GB's. For me it is an investment. I invest in my ARC and reap the benefits later in the game. My ARC is still not there yet but almost and so far I have spent way more FP's than I got back.

Personally I like the ARC, if I am leveling my own GB I can ask an ARC player to help me level my GB. Very rarely have I had a problem with an ARC owner taking places from people who have invested a lot in a GB. But this might be just because of my server/hood/friends list.

 

[Salsuero]

New players and Arc’s below 20 players will never catch up. That’s the point, there is a huge disparity in the game, the only GB to do this

Who are you competing against? Not everyone is here to be #1 in their world. I got scolded once in chat (a place I long ago learned to avoid) because I didn't have a goal of being #1 in my world. Is that the only reason to play this game? I don't think so.

 

[Salsuero]

Essentially though, my big problem with it boils down to not the Arc itself, but how the majority of people use it outside of those 'elite Arc clubs'. I've seen guild members leave guilds over being walked on by other members with a big Arc, those Arc owners themselves being removed from guilds for doing it, and people being removed from friend lists just to avoid the problems caused by the use of this GB. On most servers, there is no shortage of big Arcs looking to line their pockets with whatever FPs they can snatch up. It's apalling to me when some of these people try to claim that they're 'helping' others when they take advantage of their Arc bonus but only do so by sniping others or providing less than their full bonus. While to some small degree that may be true, again, there are many other people who could have filled that spot just as easily, and some of them (like myself) would have done so with their maximum Arc bonus. If you're skimming off the top when you take a GB spot, you're helping yourself as much as if not more than you're helping the GB owner, by virtue of the fact that if you didn't take the spot, someone else would have so your specific Arc was never 'needed' to take that spot.

And there's nothing wrong with any of that. If you get booted from a guild, join or start another. You'll be fine. If you lose friends... add more. If you don't want those things to happen... don't use your Arc in a way that would cause those things. It doesn't bother me that the Arc is being used as intended... and why shouldn't someone try to profit? Everyone without an Arc is trying to do the same thing!

I do have Arc players help me just to help me... they will sometimes overpay for something just because they are bored and wanna dump forge points. Not everyone is like that, but people seem to like to lump everyone into one or two categories. I have a player who gives me the full 90% donation for my 3rd place as a breakeven every level... no profit. He does so because he says he likes that I've "been cool to him". So I pay enough to get it to where the 3rd place is at breakeven for a 90% Arc, and he donates. That results in a snipe over anyone with lower investments. So? It's my Arc. I set the rules. I appreciate his 90% bonus being in the game because he doesn't just do that on the Arc, but on other GBs that I ask him to. As a result, I notify him of opportunities where he could use his Arc to profit... self-levelers mostly... folks that we share as mutual friends. This has fostered a type of social cooperation that I probably wouldn't have bothered with without the support of his Arc given that we aren't in the same guild. It just wouldn't have really been a thought to work with him in this way if he didn't have a strong means to help me, which makes me wanna help him back.

If there are neighbors or other folks on my GBs, it's not my job to make it rewarding for them. That is their job. Sure, I try to give opportunities to my guildmates when I can, but my goal is to level my GBs at a minimal cost to me. Does that make me selfish? I'm trying to build an empire. These are the ways I choose to go about it. Now, I don't put my GBs in the swap threads to avoid that whole mess... and if I do, I try not to play the same way and at least attempt to make it possible for the swappers to get rewarded... but in my opinion, swap threads aren't a guarantee of anything other than a return investment of the same amount. If you self-donate, you have the same result... EXCEPT... the swap threads offer AN OPPORTUNITY for a reward.

Anyways, like I said... nothing wrong with anything you said there.

 

[DeletedUser31882]

Arc is not bad for the game, it's worse then that. I think in a few years we'll look back and identify Arc as the incredibly stupid mistake INNO made that killed FoE.
---------

Arc accelerates obtaining the 'infinite Chateau' level. Pre Arc it would be a matter of years except for a very few players. Now any player can do it and in a relatively short time. And as more powered Arcs and infinite Chateaus enter the game the process of players acquiring infinite Chateaues will accelerate.

Medals production through Arc power leveling has made all other forms of Medals acquisition insignificant by an order of magnitude.

The Arc FP Rewards Bonus affects every GB Reward situation in the game.

Arc has separated players into four groups: Arc-less, low level Arcs, Arcs being powered, fully powered Arc holders. Each group is easily dominated in multiple aspects of the game by those further in the process. This separation is unique in this game; there is no other aspect that can effect the game in so many ways.

I'll be happy to discuss what I see as the ramifications of each of the above, bur first I invite each of you to consider each of these and determine if you think those effects are good for the game.

I won't debate whether these effects are real, they are readily apparent to any serious student of the game who has been around since Pre Arc days.

~Arc is not bad for the game, it's worse then that. I think in a few years we'll look back and identify Arc as the incredibly stupid mistake INNO made that killed FoE.

Interesting premise. Knowing myself, I will probably have moved on from FoE in a few years due to other factors and will be absent from the FoE Closing farewells and arguments threads.

My take away from this point is that the Arc isn't a game breaker in the short-term, but it's effects will compound to the point FoE will no longer pull enough money to keep the lights on. I concur, if we are only looking at long-term players that purchase diamonds. An advanced Arc effectively eliminates the need for a frugal diamond buyer to invest in FoE, as all their FP needs can be met with patient Arc investments and benefits. Thus a revenue stream dries up. The weakness of this argument is that it assumes long-term players are the chief revenue source for FoE/Inno. Unless we have the marketing data, all diamond purchase patterns and assumptions are shots in the dark for us lay peoples. [I make a similar argument for the recent PvP change; I assume they made the mid-Iron Age decision for the PvP unlock tech due to it being a sweet spot indicated by their marketing metrics. Hold of a player from pillage quitting long enough for them to invest in an event/Arc/GB/Premium etc.]

~Arc accelerates obtaining the 'infinite Chateau' level. Pre Arc it would be a matter of years except for a very few players. Now any player can do it and in a relatively short time. And as more powered Arcs and infinite Chateaus enter the game the process of players acquiring infinite Chateaues will accelerate.

A fair fear and I partially share it. Hopefully, Inno is smart enough (har har!) to balance or 'fix' that issue once it crops up. Due to the nature of the game, I attribute the core problem as the same as the Arc, economic overdrive. Rich become richer.

~Medals production through Arc power leveling has made all other forms of Medals acquisition insignificant by an order of magnitude.

I like this point. As a newbie, I did tower PvP my first week to win my first medal expansion. After learning more about the game and discovering the GB contribution reward meta-game, PvP tower medals became absurd to pursue as a serious medal income stream.

This shows how imbalanced the current PvP tower rewards are in comparison to GB contribution rewards. The Arc highlights and exacerbates the imbalance further.

~The Arc FP Rewards Bonus affects every GB Reward situation in the game.

Taken with the previous Medal point, this has lead me to a small epiphany. The core issue isn't necessarily the Arc, but the Contribution reward system. The question then becomes if the Arc needs to be nerfed, the contribution rewards nerfed or if a new FP/Medal sink can/should be added. This assumes the end goal is to balance the economy in some way and the current balance is ruining the game for the majority of players.

~Arc has separated players into four groups: Arc-less, low level Arcs, Arcs being powered, fully powered Arc holders. Each group is easily dominated in multiple aspects of the game by those further in the process. This separation is unique in this game; there is no other aspect that can effect the game in so many ways.

I partially agree here. The Arc is the GB for the Contribution rewards play style. Similar to Zues, CdM, Kraken, Orangery (Crit GB?) and CoA are the GBs for anything related to army strength. Idea: Maybe The Arc could be nerfed if which rewards it augments. Instead of EVERY contribution reward being upped, maybe just Medals? Second Idea: Future GBs could be like the Arc, but be more targeted, like boosting FP contribution reward multiplier only. I shall dub this hypothetical new GB: The Forgenator! This would make The Arc & The Forgenator the GBs to build/level for players focusing on FP generation from GB contributions. If medals became a worthwhile currency (Medal to FP exchange for instance), then another GB called The Medal Pinner! could be added, thus changing the balance and strategy of the contribution reward meta-game.

Conclusion: I don't share the same fear of the Arc being the FoE killer, but I do agree that balancing needs to be addressed across the board. ESPECIALLY, with contribution rewards. After the Delphi incident, I am watching Inno to determine if they have the capability to do such a re-balance. Not liek a hawk, but more a semi-interested crow. I would of said Raven, but I'm not that cosmic.

[/SPOILER]

New players and Arc’s below 20 players will never catch up. That’s the point, there is a huge disparity in the game, the only GB to do this

That and Time. And how much money a person is willing to give to Inno. I agree that there is a disparity and given equal effort, the Old Rich will always beat the new, but I do not see how this ruins or is detrimental to the game. Other than newer players wanting the riches of the older, how are Arc owners ruining other people's play styles?

My current thoughts: I think the Arc has enriched the players who enjoy the GB contribution rewards meta-game. I don't think the Arc is the problem, but it does highlights the real contention point, the balancing of rewards. The contribution rewards system is one of the most lucrative to milk. The Arc takes the milk we imagine coming from a good old dairy farm and shows us the scary realty of industrialization.

 

[DeletedUser25166]

Who are you competing against? Not everyone is here to be #1 in their world. I got scolded once in chat (a place I long ago learned to avoid) because I didn't have a goal of being #1 in my world. Is that the only reason to play this game? I don't think so.

Not trying to be #1, I run a 78 person, top 7 Guild. Trying to make sure everyone in the guild can compete.