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Did the Arc Improve the Game?

DeletedUser11463

Your argument seems to be that the existence of a massive disparity of wealth in the real world of cutthroat capitalism makes it fine for Forge of Empires to emulate the same. I think your premise — that inequity is acceptable — is quite false.

The age old question: Capitalism vs Socialism (or Communism). Should we stomp out inequity and make sure everyone has the same? One need only look at Capitalist countries vs. Socialist countries. Those who follow some sort of capitalism such as the great USA, Japan, etc. or countries like Venezuela, the old USSR, most of Eastern Europe. And even when you can show an example of a socialist country that does well (China) it is because they have a "socialist" govt but a "capitalist" economy.

Should I study hard, get a good education, work long hours and get wealthy only to have it taken away by high taxes on the "rich"? Should someone who spends their education years getting drunk, doing drugs and generally ignoring their education opportunity get the same pay as I do? Should a business owner who spends years of hard work building a business for his/her family have to "give" it to those less fortunate?

If everyone makes $15 per hour, then the cost of those inexpensive items will just rise and that $3 hamburger will just cost $10 so those making $15 per hour will still have the same level of living as before.

So back to the game. If someone wants to spend the time and money (diamonds) to buy what they need to build an ARC and then spend the huge investment to get it to a high level, then they get the benefit of their work on it. Same with any other GB they build up to a high level.

Bottom line: Put in the time and energy and cost and reap the reward. Capitalism at its best.
 

DeletedUser31882

The age old question: Capitalism vs Socialism (or Communism).
Bottom line: Put in the time and energy and cost and reap the reward. Capitalism at its best.

I agree with the sentiment, but just can't walk away without attempting to argue the opposition's point I also agree with.

Capitalism starts showing it's ugly side when looking at wealth disparity. Is it okay that the rich own and rule everything by virtue of their money? Should there be regulation and taxes put in place to protect the less-fortunate and poor to allow them to get back on their feet and/or have a chance of success? How can we balance 'hard work' with 'right place, right time' fortunes?

From my understanding, The Arc allows GB reward contribution monopolies, which many/some find unfair and discouraging to their play style. For me, If a high level arc owner is able to lock-in a top contribution reward spot on a fresh GB AND profit from it, then something is wrong. There should be a little competition and minimal profit from GBs leveled by outsiders. Solo-builders should be the only place profit snipes occur. At least, that's my interpretation of the game design.

That's why I support ideas that could break-up the monopoly. New GBs that compete with the Arc's benefits and allow for multiple strategies when approaching the contribution reward meta-game. Or a re-balance of the contribution reward system, so there is no way for people to simply plop down their riches, profit and move onto another money bag.

Side Note: As I'm a non-Arc owner and having not studied the numbers, I am assuming the assertion that High level arcs allow that kind of monopoly. My argument becomes moot if that isn't the reality of High-Arc play.

Another Bottom Line: Someone with the power to strangle all competition is Capitalism at its worst. The question shouldn't be about Capitalism vs. Socialism, but the balance between the two that can maintain a sustainable civilization. I think the civilization part is important, as most use the two ideologies to push for power(wealth/political/etc).
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
High level arcs allow that kind of monopoly

Considering the fact that high-level Arc owners compete against each other, sometimes quite vigorously, and every non-Arc player can build one and obtain the level needed to also compete, without prejudice, I don't really see how this argument holds water. It would be one thing if there were a limited number of "seats at the table" of high-level Arc owners... or if there were no competition because you could somehow lock up GBs to be hit only by your Arc and no one else's. This is not the case. I have "taken" many 1st and 2nd place positions away from 90% Arc owners, even when mine wasn't profitable to do so simply by timing it right, or sometimes by engaging socially with the owner and getting advance warning of the next level approaching. There is no monopoly of Arc ownership as entry to the "club" is obtainable by anyone who wants it. This is not a perceived path to wealth, as in the real world... but a very real one. I know... I only started playing the game in October of last year and I'm already taking reward spots away from 90% Arc owners.
 

DeletedUser31498

I agree with the sentiment, but just can't walk away without attempting to argue the opposition's point I also agree with.

Capitalism starts showing it's ugly side when looking at wealth disparity. Is it okay that the rich own and rule everything by virtue of their money? Should there be regulation and taxes put in place to protect the less-fortunate and poor to allow them to get back on their feet and/or have a chance of success? How can we balance 'hard work' with 'right place, right time' fortunes?

From my understanding, The Arc allows GB reward contribution monopolies, which many/some find unfair and discouraging to their play style. For me, If a high level arc owner is able to lock-in a top contribution reward spot on a fresh GB AND profit from it, then something is wrong. There should be a little competition and minimal profit from GBs leveled by outsiders. Solo-builders should be the only place profit snipes occur. At least, that's my interpretation of the game design.

That's why I support ideas that could break-up the monopoly. New GBs that compete with the Arc's benefits and allow for multiple strategies when approaching the contribution reward meta-game. Or a re-balance of the contribution reward system, so there is no way for people to simply plop down their riches, profit and move onto another money bag.

Side Note: As I'm a non-Arc owner and having not studied the numbers, I am assuming the assertion that High level arcs allow that kind of monopoly. My argument becomes moot if that isn't the reality of High-Arc play.

Another Bottom Line: Someone with the power to strangle all competition is Capitalism at its worst. The question shouldn't be about Capitalism vs. Socialism, but the balance between the two that can maintain a sustainable civilization. I think the civilization part is important, as most use the two ideologies to push for power(wealth/political/etc).
Not sure what you mean by high-level Arc owners owning a monopoly. They can profitably lock in 1st and 2nd on a fresh level between ~30-70, but I think the key distinction you're missing is that those contributions HELP the Arc owner they're contributing to. That's kind of the whole point of capitalism? A MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL "trade", which is exactly what that is
 

DeletedUser27849

My 2 cents,

I don't think the ARC is unfair or how others are playing it. I look at it this way;

1. Medals are a commodity that are hard to come by. So what I have learned in my year of playing is that once you get the ARC up to level 25 then it will pay for itself. So if you get 3 players to agree to donate to each others ARC (1 player being 1st on one and 2nd place on the other and so on), they in return can donate 35% of total cost of the forge points for 1st and 33% for 2nd they will lock them up. Now they can do the same thing allowing the guild to beef it up in their swaps then swoop in and snipe it (sniping is not illegal). If the 3 members did this they can push their building up quickly.

2. This method can be done on any GB. Saying that I know that 3 things have to happen to perform this, saving up the forge point packs (which has been limited now by Inno) and getting their FP GB leveled up and obtain SoK's. You could also buy your forge points utilizing your coins.

This is all up to you as a player as to how you want to achieve this. So IMHO sniping is not a issue.
 

DeletedUser27184

Also, the high Arc player are searching actively for Arcs in the 25 level or so, and many times talk with that player and start to put their FP into his Arc. Pushing him.
So, even if the High Level Arcs are elite bunch, they actively push more players into their elite group, and indecently strengthen the lower level Arc players a lot. Allowing them access to the high level Arc fast.
 

DeletedUser31882

Considering the fact that high-level Arc owners compete against each other, sometimes quite vigorously, and every non-Arc player can build one and obtain the level needed to also compete, without prejudice,... ...monopoly of Arc... ...obtainable...

I agree with your argument, but I believe you missed or I muddled one of the presumptions of the monopoly argument.

The monopoly I speak of is a specific circumstance. I admit I am not certain if it is a reality, but based on other posts in this thread, I assume some believe the spirit of the following example is a reality.

Made up Example: My Zues levels to level 9. It is now 0/510. A high level Arc observes this and places 255 FPs on my Zues, thus locking the first place contribution reward. Due to the level of their Arc, they will get a return of 256+ FPs, ergo profit.

If that is the reality of the Arc situation, I believe that the system is imbalanced and should be looked at. I see the ability to lock in profit on a fresh GB as against the spirit of the contribution reward system meta-game and not the intended game design. In my head, the ideal balancing would have lock-in profit that occurs after 50% progress.

If Inno DID intend the above made up example, then that is that and I respect their decision. Either way, The Arc sounds necessarily if you want to raise the capital to level GBs to amazing heights in a relatively short amount of time. Does that improve the game? I think so. Does it mean the Arc is balanced? I lack sufficient data to come to a conclusion. It certainly has ruffled some feathers, so I enjoy the investigation.

Not sure what you mean by high-level Arc owners owning a monopoly. They can profitably lock in 1st and 2nd on a fresh level between ~30-70, but I think the key distinction you're missing is that those contributions HELP the Arc owner they're contributing to. That's kind of the whole point of capitalism? A MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL "trade", which is exactly what that is

I see how it helps the Arc Owner, but I don't see how it fits into the game design intentions. I interpret Lemur's question as not about the individual benefits, but the overall game flow and balance of the game after the advent of the Arc. Hopefully my example, given in response to Salsuero, clears up how I am using monopoly. The key distinction you describe is irrelevant to what I am speaking to.

There is no trade in the contribution reward system. The Arc owner doesn't own the contribution reward pay-out. That's Inno's design to give incentive for other players to contribute, not an active element of play a player has control over. There is a difference between a socially arranged, mutually beneficial trade (player driven) and the mechanics the trade is based around(Inno's balance design choices). I criticize the mechanics of the trade, not the social arrangement that is built upon it.

Although, your example reminds me of why some people have issues with the Arc. Because the Arc makes the 'profit' part of the contribution rewards non-symmetrical, it creates headaches for players attempting to organize BP swaps. I don't think a 'well get an Arc' is a practical solution to their predicament. In fact, it reveals the callousness of the person who argues it.

The point of capitalism is not for ONLY two people to benefit. The point is to set up a system for the best product/service to thrive and give incentive for others to compete/innovate and continue making a better product/service. That's why monopolies are bad, it stifles innovation. But that's a digression. I enjoyed @Big-Bendz post and merely expanded upon it by using similar terminology.


To Clarify: I'm not arguing against the Arc. I'm arguing for consistent game design. It sounds like Arc levels 30-70 are aberrant examples of the contribution reward system.
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
Due to the level of their Arc, they will get a return of 256+ FPs, ergo profit.

That happens in certain situations, but only for GBs in much higher levels... for the Arc it's around 30-74... for others it's a similar range.

If that is the reality of the Arc situation, I believe that the system is imbalanced and should be looked at.

Why? The point of rewards is that you donate to help someone level their GB and you get rewarded for it. Inno developed the Arc to "enhance" that system, motivating people to do more helping. But how is that a "monopoly?"

I lack sufficient data to come to a conclusion.

I think this is very true, though I'm not bothered by you joining the conversation. I just feel like you are missing some direct knowledge.

given in response to Salsuero

Funny you would quote gutmeister and I together and use my response as a qualifier. We don't have the best history agreeing on things.

There is no trade in the contribution reward system.

There can be if two Arc owners donate to each other... but more importantly, the trade is... reward for Arc owner, free FPs fast and cheap for the GB owner.

I criticize the mechanics of the trade, not the social arrangement that is built upon it.

That's too bad that you think that way because a HUGE element of social interaction was opened up due to Arc actions that probably would never have existed otherwise, including cooperative play to level GBs.

The point of capitalism is not for ONLY two people to benefit.

Ok, but the primary (although mostly ignored) bonus is treasury goods... which helps an entire guild... so there's that.
 

lemur

Well-Known Member
I asked how a poor player could ever acquire a Level 80 Arc.
The same way I will. I'm more than halfway there already and I've been playing a little over 400 days.

And you're still in the Middle Ages. How many players stall on the Tech Tree like you and I have? A handful — because InnoGames does everything that it can to discourage that style of play. I think that the experience of an outlier does not provide a likely solution.

In other words, the style of play that InnoGames tries to force upon its clientele is part of what laid the foundation for the Arc to increase the disparity of wealth in the game.
.
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
And you're still in the Middle Ages. How many players stall on the Tech Tree like you and I have?

Well that's our choice, right? And there are people in our guild that started at the same time as us, but didn't stop moving up the tech tree. The one in our guild with the highest Arc has moved up a couple eras and started the same week as I did. ;) I'm not moving slowly because of the Arc. I'm moving slowly because I want to move slowly.
 

lemur

Well-Known Member
I'm not moving slowly because of the Arc.

That's not my argument. It is the lack of progress on the Tech Tree that allows a player to become rich in Forge Points — because they are not being burned up on technology. The Arc then amplifies that strength. Surely you know this.
.
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
That's not my argument. It is the lack of progress on the Tech Tree that allows a player to become rich in Forge Points — because they are not being burned up on technology. The Arc then amplifies that strength. Surely you know this.
.

I know that's how you feel, but I also know people who advance in tech AND have forge points. I'm in a lower age, it costs me less to be here, but I also don't have as much space to plant FP production buildings (like the 12 Terrace Farms in inventory). If I move up the tech tree, I may lose some initial FPs, but that's only a short-term loss... I could easily recover if I had all those extra expansions to plant 12 more Terrace Farms. I hear you. I just think your perspective is a little too dark. I don't have the forge points I have because I move slowly on the tech tree. I have so many forge points that it wouldn't phase me to move four full eras right now. You might say I have those forge points because I took time to collect them. That's fine... but I didn't use the Arc to get 2/3 of what I have and the Arc has only recently started to really pay off. I had enough forge points in inventory to move from EMA to the end of Colonial before I got past level 10 with my Arc. I'm not saying you're wrong that there are factors that impact everything... the Arc does have an impact. I disagree to what degree and that is has a negative one.
 

DeletedUser31498

That happens in certain situations, but only for GBs in much higher levels... for the Arc it's around 30-74... for others it's a similar range.



Why? The point of rewards is that you donate to help someone level their GB and you get rewarded for it. Inno developed the Arc to "enhance" that system, motivating people to do more helping. But how is that a "monopoly?"



I think this is very true, though I'm not bothered by you joining the conversation. I just feel like you are missing some direct knowledge.



Funny you would quote gutmeister and I together and use my response as a qualifier. We don't have the best history agreeing on things.



There can be if two Arc owners donate to each other... but more importantly, the trade is... reward for Arc owner, free FPs fast and cheap for the GB owner.



That's too bad that you think that way because a HUGE element of social interaction was opened up due to Arc actions that probably would never have existed otherwise, including cooperative play to level GBs.



Ok, but the primary (although mostly ignored) bonus is treasury goods... which helps an entire guild... so there's that.

"Funny you would quote gutmeister and I together and use my response as a qualifier. We don't have the best history agreeing on things."

lol!
 

DeletedUser14354

I believe the Arc was originally intended to be a counterpart to the Chateau Frontenac. That boosts your rewards from quests, goods, diamonds, etc. However, it didn't offer any benefit to the GB rewards. The Arc filled that niche. In that sense, it was, in my opinion, on net, an enrichment to the game.

The problems everyone is describing are real. They are the result of the developers clearly not realizing the extent to which players would come to view the Arc as an ingame "hack". In other words, the Arc is a clear case of the experiment getting out of the laboratory.

In hindsight, the rewards of the Arc clearly should have been nerfed. However, by the time the developers realized what happened, they probably felt, correctly in my opinion, that the blowback from players would have been too severe.

I think this fact also explains why they acted so quickly to nerf the Oracle.
 

DeletedUser31498

I believe the Arc was originally intended to be a counterpart to the Chateau Frontenac. That boosts your rewards from quests, goods, diamonds, etc. However, it didn't offer any benefit to the GB rewards. The Arc filled that niche. In that sense, it was, in my opinion, on net, an enrichment to the game.

The problems everyone is describing are real. They are the result of the developers clearly not realizing the extent to which players would come to view the Arc as an ingame "hack". In other words, the Arc is a clear case of the experiment getting out of the laboratory.

In hindsight, the rewards of the Arc clearly should have been nerfed. However, by the time the developers realized what happened, they probably felt, correctly in my opinion, that the blowback from players would have been too severe.

I think this fact also explains why they acted so quickly to nerf the Oracle.

Yeah I think the clear sign that the Arc has overtaken what the devs expected is summed up pretty well by @Salsuero and his expansions. He's in HMA ( I think?) and has like three medal expansions left after playing for barely a year. Now that's not necessarily a problem, but when it makes deal castle and any other source of medals just a pathetic joke, clearly at least something didn't go as intended.
 

DeletedUser32389

You’re missing a little something here that speaks to the darker underbelly of capitalism and that is: money breeds money. Those that have, get more. The problem with the Arc is that at high levels you can LOCK first on mid level Arcs and make a profit from the FP rewards. It’s not the players fault, it’s obviously oversight on the part of Inno, but it’s changes the landscape of the game entirely. There are players now with infinite FP which kinda breaks the game in spirit.

Life is not a game. If you were to make all the money in the world, good for you! But a game needs a field of competition for it to be entertaining. This building was a mistake, but luckily Inno has enough checks and balances in place that it didn’t sink the entire ship.
 
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