DNSL Proposals

[Vger]

It still depends on a subjective interpretation of "community" as well as the definition of "working against the building" of such.

Yes it does. "Subjective interpretation" is one of the (thankless) tasks that moderators perform.

 

[DeletedUser36572]

There is a Forum rule about not working against the building of community which, if enforced, would mean the deletion or editing of at least 75% of posts.

If you had to delete the majority of the posts (like 75%) ... That would not be to help build a community ... It would be a concerted effort to be disrespectful and tear the community that actually exists down.

Regulatory Ambiguity

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[DeletedUser]

If you had to delete the majority of the posts (like 75%) ... That would not be to help build a community ... It would be a concerted effort to be disrespectful and tear the community that actually exists down.

Regulatory Ambiguity

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Honestly, this isn't much of a community right now. Every time there's a proposal that's something that's been proposed before, half a dozen or more players jump all over the OP before I even get a chance to see the proposal. Not to mention the players that start threads and then jump all over anyone that doesn't agree with their viewpoint. Rare indeed is the respectful discussion of anything without personal insults or belittling remarks.

No Ambiguity Here

 

[Agent327]

When you start a new city, you have to go through the tutorial every time, no matter how experienced you are.

 

[Emberguard]

So basically what you want is for players to wait till you have given it jump approval. Don't think that will work.

No they want people to be respectful to one another when disagreeing on a point

 

[Agent327]

No they want people to be respectful to one another when disagreeing on a point

Is it respectfull to other forum users to come up with the same proposal over and over again?

 

[Emberguard]

Acting out of spite is worse. You can not justify one persons behaviour based on another

Aside from which not everyone is aware of their proposal having been proposed prior. The search function takes time to get used to and isn’t always that easy to navigate

 

[DeletedUser36572]

Honestly, this isn't much of a community right now. Every time there's a proposal that's something that's been proposed before, half a dozen or more players jump all over the OP before I even get a chance to see the proposal. Not to mention the players that start threads and then jump all over anyone that doesn't agree with their viewpoint. Rare indeed is the respectful discussion of anything without personal insults or belittling remarks.

No Ambiguity Here

You could have just respectfully agreed with the fact you don’t like the community that exists as it is, and would prefer to tear it down.

If you want to change or grow the community ... Get to work.
If you want to complain about the things you don’t like ... There is no purpose in that other than creating more garbage.

Blah-Blah-Blah

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[Agent327]

Acting out of spite is worse. You can not justify one persons behaviour based on another

Good thing than that I act out of my own pleasant personality.

Aside from which not everyone is aware of their proposal having been proposed prior. The search function takes time to get used to and isn’t always that easy to navigate

I find that a very feeble excuse. Most of the time a similar proposal is on the first page, just a few threads down. Besides that wouldn't it be common forum courtesy to read and pay attention to fourum guidelines on how and where to post?

 

[DeletedUser]

You could have just respectfully agreed with the fact you don’t like the community that exists as it is, and would prefer to tear it down.

If you want to change or grow the community ... Get to work.
If you want to complain about the things you don’t like ... There is no purpose in that other than creating more garbage.

Blah-Blah-Blah

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You're putting more into my original comment than was there. My original comment was just stating the obvious fact that much of what is posted on this Forum is disrespectful and/or plain insulting, and if the Forum rule about posts that work against the building of "community" (meaning a welcoming and encouraging place, not just any kind of community) were to be enforced at all times, then those posts would not pass muster and have to be dealt with. I NEVER said that I was planning on doing that. Would I like for the Forum to be better? Of course. And just in case you haven't noticed, I went to work over a year ago on changing and growing the community when I signed up to be a volunteer moderator.

Last thing: I wasn't complaining, I was merely stating an obvious fact of life here on the Forum.

Blah-Blah-Blah yourself.

 

[DeletedUser36572]

You're putting more into my original comment than was there. My original comment was just stating the obvious fact that much of what is posted on this Forum is disrespectful and/or plain insulting, and if the Forum rule about posts that work against the building of "community" (meaning a welcoming and encouraging place, not just any kind of community) were to be enforced at all times, then those posts would not pass muster and have to be dealt with. I NEVER said that I was planning on doing that. Would I like for the Forum to be better? Of course. And just in case you haven't noticed, I went to work over a year ago on changing and growing the community when I signed up to be a volunteer moderator.

Last thing: I wasn't complaining, I was merely stating an obvious fact of life here on the Forum.

Blah-Blah-Blah yourself.

I know what you posted, and I didn’t mention anything about anyone being kind or conforming to whatever imaginary subjective unenforceable standards you may choose to apply.

I understand that to build a community, you have to start with what you have, and not with what you can dream up should be. I respect the people here for who they are, and the information they provide ... Not for who I would like them to be in order to appease the desires of someone that isn’t here.

In a nutshell ... An empty emotional plea/response does not, and never will, amount to a counter argument. Real respect is earned, not owed.

Thanks to all of you ... I learn helpful stuff here all they time, respect you for who you are, and what you choose to offer.

If You Want To Fight ...
You’ll Get What You Are Asking For

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[DeletedUser]

In a nutshell ... An empty emotional plea/response does not, and never will, amount to a counter argument. Real respect is earned, not owed.

No empty emotional pleas or responses from me, just statements of facts. And I'm not arguing, I'm explaining. Just like I'll now explain that "real respect" that is earned is not what I'm referring to. That is how you feel about a particular person. Being respectful is quite a different thing, and can be applied to whoever you come in contact with, regardless of whether you have "real respect" for that person. And being respectful is what I was referring to.

Not looking for a fight,
But prepared if one comes along.

 

[Graviton]

I find that a very feeble excuse. Most of the time a similar proposal is on the first page, just a few threads down. Besides that wouldn't it be common forum courtesy to read and pay attention to fourum guidelines on how and where to post?

I do think there's a difference between somebody innocently neglecting to check for a similar proposal, and somebody who starts off with an attitude toward anybody who disagrees.

 

[DeletedUser36572]

No empty emotional pleas or responses from me, just statements of facts. And I'm not arguing, I'm explaining. Just like I'll now explain that "real respect" that is earned is not what I'm referring to. That is how you feel about a particular person. Being respectful is quite a different thing, and can be applied to whoever you come in contact with, regardless of whether you have "real respect" for that person. And being respectful is what I was referring to.

Not looking for a fight,
But prepared if one comes along.

Being respectful starts with the desire to find something useful or worth supporting or investigating in what someone has to offer, not being defensive in attempts to counter whatever they have to offer.

For instance, some people may think that @Agent327 is less than respectful when he posts that something has already been proposed, discussed at length, is available for review, and the person should have referred to the past posts.

All of that is correct and useful.

I cannot count the times someone has offered a suggestion I thought might be decent ... Took Agent’s advice, found the previous discussion, gathered all kinds of helpful insight either direct or exculpatory ... And subsequently gained the ability to recognize referring to previous discussion is an excellent way of understanding the bonuses and pitfalls of proposals based simply in desire instead of game operation.

Thanks Agent

It Is What You Make Of It ...
You’ll Get What You Are Looking For

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[The Lady Redneck]

"Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves". (on both sides of the debate)

OK it does get annoying when some new (and maybe not so new) player comes and jumps right in with something that has been hashed out countless times before. Or who (God forbid) necros a thread because something in it intersts them from a new player perspective and they do not know better yet. Yes they should have read the rules and use search first. But how many of us always read the instructions before doing something? A simply "Hi. Welcome to the Forum. This has been brought up a lot, here is a link to responses". is all that is needed, Even if you are thinking OH Sheesh not again!!!!
If they are met on first contact with a load of biitchy comments or put downs most folk get defensive and will react in kind. Then all the drama starts on both sides. So is that the actual real reason for the negativity? Is part of the fun putting folks down rather that actually helping them? To me that is not helping to build a community.

BUT if someone comes on all full of themselves about how crap the game is, and how they know how it should all be done. Turning back any attempts at explaining things to them with insults. If we do not listen to them we are idiots. Instantly downing the game because things are to hard, does not do things they way they want. Folks in the game are mean and nasty and beat them up instead of giving them stuff on demand because that is what mommy has always done. And Shock horror this is not like candy crush or Mario!!! we did not know we would have to actually THINK about it and work to get anywhere. We want everything NOW right this instant and we do not want to have to click to do it. ....... OK maybe some would sit there demurely waiting on a Mod to respond. BUT (Looks around at some of the regulars) HECK NO!! Even though we know it is not perfect, this is a game WE love, WE have friends here, WE have a community here. WE will defend it even though we have grumbles about it. And we will welcome anyone who want to join this community who does wish to get to know it. But I would be nice. If they ended up in the same hood as me I would not DREAM of attacking and plundering them. Hhhhmmm Have never played the game in my sleep.

 

[DeletedUser36572]

"Always with the negative waves Moriarty, always with the negative waves". (on both sides of the debate)

OK it does get annoying when some new (and maybe not so new) player comes and jumps right in with something that has been hashed out countless times before. Or who (God forbid) necros a thread because something in it intersts them from a new player perspective and they do not know better yet. Yes they should have read the rules and use search first. But how many of us always read the instructions before doing something? A simply "Hi. Welcome to the Forum. This has been brought up a lot, here is a link to responses". is all that is needed, Even if you are thinking OH Sheesh not again!!!!
If they are met on first contact with a load of biitchy comments or put downs most folk get defensive and will react in kind. Then all the drama starts on both sides. So is that the actual real reason for the negativity? Is part of the fun putting folks down rather that actually helping them? To me that is not helping to build a community.

BUT if someone comes on all full of themselves about how crap the game is, and how they know how it should all be done. Turning back any attempts at explaining things to them with insults. If we do not listen to them we are idiots. Instantly downing the game because things are to hard, does not do things they way they want. Folks in the game are mean and nasty and beat them up instead of giving them stuff on demand because that is what mommy has always done. And Shock horror this is not like candy crush or Mario!!! we did not know we would have to actually THINK about it and work to get anywhere. We want everything NOW right this instant and we do not want to have to click to do it. ....... OK maybe some would sit there demurely waiting on a Mod to respond. BUT (Looks around at some of the regulars) HECK NO!! Even though we know it is not perfect, this is a game WE love, WE have friends here, WE have a community here. WE will defend it even though we have grumbles about it. And we will welcome anyone who want to join this community who does wish to get to know it. But I would be nice. If they ended up in the same hood as me I would not DREAM of attacking and plundering them. Hhhhmmm Have never played the game in my sleep.

I agree things could be expressed in a way that better serves a community effort.

At the same, if I stuck my hand up everyone’s booty, and moved their mouths for them, it’s possible they may say more things I like, or that make me feel more comfortable.

Luckily, I have no desire to, and see no useful purpose in doing that, so everyone’s booty is safe (from me anyway; I think there still may be others that would like to try).

There Is A Difference In Wanting To Build Something,
And Trying To Create Something Out Of Nothing,
Without The Resources,
And Mastery Of The Tools Required

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[Salsuero]

Rare indeed is the respectful discussion of anything without personal insults or belittling remarks.

Interesting. Kind of surprising that we have been discussing a non-proposal, based on a premise that I want to entertain myself at the expense of others, and it hasn't devolved into the worst post in these forums. It might be possible that the community that already exists is made up of people who don't entirely disagree with me, while also made up of many who undoubtedly disagree with me on just about everything, and that it's totally fine the way it is. Here's the thing: I just want to be able to drag terrible proposals through the just-deserved mud. I don't want to prematurely deflate someone who is kind and courteous. But some proposals are flat out garbage and are often proposed in ways that attack players and/or the game... and we often don't get an opportunity to hit back because they just get closed. I just wanna have fun with the garbage proposals. That's all. LOL

 

[DeletedUser]

Interesting. Kind of surprising that we have been discussing a non-proposal, based on a premise that I want to entertain myself at the expense of others, and it hasn't devolved into the worst post in these forums. It might be possible that the community that already exists is made up of people who don't entirely disagree with me, while also made up of many who undoubtedly disagree with me on just about everything, and that it's totally fine the way it is. Here's the thing: I just want to be able to drag terrible proposals through the just-deserved mud. I don't want to prematurely deflate someone who is kind and courteous. But some proposals are flat out garbage and are often proposed in ways that attack players and/or the game... and we often don't get an opportunity to hit back because they just get closed. I just wanna have fun with the garbage proposals. That's all. LOL

I feel ya! Believe me, being a moderator for me is a major struggle every day to keep my snark in check. Long-time Forum regulars will remember when I was almost as bad as it gets at tearing people a new one. And I sure agree that some people deserve that at times (even me).

So here's the thing. From the broader perspective that there are those watching other than the person who deserves it, what message does it send to them when they see someone getting the "treatment"? Keep in mind that most of them would not be Forum regulars nor experienced players. They don't understand what's going on, they just see that someone is again getting the dogpile treatment from those trolls on the Forum. Ya see what I'm saying? We don't exist in a vacuum. What we do and say is in a fishbowl at times, usually when we're not on our best behavior. And there is undoubtedly a direct link between the relative lack of player participation in the Forum and the image we project to the casual visitors.

Perspective is everything

 

[Emberguard]

@Salsuero I get there may be frustrations in the way something is presented or how someone behaves but that doesn’t give anyone the right to mock someone. We have the right to disagree or agree on something. That doesn’t mean we should belittle someone for not doing it a certain way

As the forum regulars we have the opportunity to set the standard for others by our example. If we immediately reply to any newcomer that trash talks the game in the same way then that’s the only example we’re setting

 

[Agent327]

I do think there's a difference between somebody innocently neglecting to check for a similar proposal, and somebody who starts off with an attitude toward anybody who disagrees.

Most of the time the first leads to the second.

Thanks Agent

You are welcome.

Yes they should have read the rules and use search first. But how many of us always read the instructions before doing something?

First thing I do when I am new on a forum. If you were not expected to do it, why are those posts pinned on top of a forum?