Do Advanced Players Care About City Defense?

[Brutus Strungth]

I've been playing for about 6 years. Early on, I was obsessed with city defense. I took getting plundered as a personal violation, so I loaded up my city with Ritual Flames, Watchfires, and every other means to make players with twice my stats sorry they tried me.
Now, I'm in Tomorrow Era, I have around 59 million ranking points, and a level 48 Galata. Like many, my city is maxed out on space, I've bought all medal expansions, and I have a lot of special event buildings that make a lot of goods. I usually rank about 5th in my neighborhood, so I rarely get hit anymore. Also, I produce enough goods that it wouldn't be a big deal if someone got by my Galata and grabbed a few of them.
I have gotten rid of many of those Watchfires and Ritual Flames, but there are still a fair number filling in various gaps in my layout. I'm thinking of making them all go away. It even occurred to me that I could scrap my Deal Castle, and use the space for an Arctic Orangery, or fit a couple of event buildings in that 7x7 space.

So, that sets up my question. After your game reaches a certain point, does city defense even matter?

 

[Ironrooster]

When I started I used the defense buildings because I had the space. But over time I removed them all so I could use other buildings, GBs, event buildings, etc. All my city defense is from event buildings that do other things and the castle which just includes it. As you point out, after awhile you have so much going that a plunder just isn't a big deal.

But I have seen a few players with high city defense in PVP even in SAAB where I am.

 

[xivarmy]

City defense *never* mattered. Right from the start with the typical number of plunderers per hood, you're likely ahead just letting them take what they can get, and building more production than building defense.

But some people enjoy it - so some advanced players do still focus on it to an extent.

But your reason for having it should never ever be efficiency related. Because it's not. Especially these days with the kind of boost available to players that they have for other purposes and would demand even more space if you were going to try and defend them.

 

[Meat Butcher]

at one time I certainly did, had well over 2k defense. However any good fighter could get through anyway.
At the time I did not want to make it easy for anyone.

Once they started making event buildings with defense for your attacking army it was time to make a change.
Deleted level 85 basil and 83 deal, then a brief moment of silence for them.
After all watchfires and ritual flames went.

Not sure how long ago that was, but at the time my attack / defense on attack was 2617/ 1747
After I deleted all the defense I put down more FP / Attack stuff and finished with 2865 / 1817

Much happier after that and of course I wish I had done that much much sooner.

 

[UBERhelp1]

Defense has never mattered, and it never will. Unless you want to dump all your resources into defense and be unable to attack, there will always be someone stronger than you that can beat whatever defensive army you choose. You're not going to make an attacker sorry for attacking you. The worst that can happen is they lose 8 troops which they can get back with a Traz.

Instead, no matter what age or quality of your city, there is a 100% sure way to avoid being plundered. The answer? Collect your productions on time. It's that simple. Set your productions for when you're going to be next online. Collect your productions as soon as they are finished. A production can't be plundered if it's already collected. I don't focus on defense at all. I have a 132/182 defense boost basically only from event buildings and especially the TA. And yet, I almost never get plundered. I get attacked once in a while, but I don't have any productions available to be plundered. It's that simple.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

For new players, City Defense may seem desirable. But sooner or later players realize "collect on time" (assuming they have event buildings and can do a once each 24hr collection. ) Collect on time is all anyone needs for defense. And out goes all eh city defense junk. As Meat Butcher wrote leaves room for a lot more Attack.
It took me awhile to have 'collect on time' sink in, but I got the message and deleted St Basil, Monastery all the little junk.
And to add.. The defense for PvP is also uselesss. Mainly because losses are limited to a maximum of five a day. Using low Era troops for PvP defense lowers the loss further.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

It even occurred to me that I could scrap my Deal Castle,

Whatever else you do, get rid of that. Using a few random 1x1 spaces just because isn't bad, but using 49 squares for defense that's going to get beat anyway is not productive. To me the best answer to plunderers is to almost exclusively use buildings that can't be plundered. That didn't use to be possible, but now it is almost easy. Additionally, for me the main draw of a building is if it gives boosts for the attacking army...and that part can't be plundered. The worst a neighbor can do to me is maybe plunder a production building that I've got set for an event quest, but even that is such a minor setback as to be irrelevant. (And long time Forum members will remember that long ago I used to be pro-city defense. No longer.)

 

[The Lady Redneck]

Years ago I used to be all for city defense. And like others had watchtowers and ritual flames everywhere. What cured me of it was getting my first CF. I had all the goods and BPs to build it for ages, but I thought it was just a fluff GB so had not bothered with it. Then a friend on Beta explained about the advantages of using it with RQs. I was not convinced, but was curious enough to give it a go, but had no room. He said if I cleared out some of my Watchtowers I would have the space and would not miss them. So I bit the bullet and did just that. And even when CF was still at low levels I soon saw the benefit. And of course the goods I got from RQs could not be plundered. That made me look at my game again and soon got rid of the rest of the defence stuff and replaced it with more military GBs which got me strong enough to hit the plunderers back. It also gave me room to build GBs that gave goods. Which in turn made me see I no longer needed goods building. So those went as well. So I had very little other than a few supply buildings. But the biggest surprise was seeing how much stronger I got and how much it helped me progress. I played in multi worlds at the time so had great fun removing all the defense junk from all my cities. Now the only city defense I have comes by default from Event buildings that I built because they offered both attack boosts for my attacking army as well as defense for defending army.

 

[Emberguard]

I've never bothered with city defense boosts, only making sure I have 8 troops assigned. Will that change? Maybe. Who knows.

Overall though, I find there's not enough plunderers around to bother with investing actual space into it. If you're in a brand new world, sure. Prioritise it then because the plunderers aren't spread out yet. Particularly if you can get the Drummer and ColourGuard. Those two units in a brand new city make for a decent defense.

But in a established world? You'll be lucky to even be attacked by more than one, maybe two people at a time. Even if you are being attacked, anything Aided is immune to plunder.

So all you have to do to be plunderproof is swap out Goods Buildings, Special Production Buildings and the plunderable portion of Sets with buildings that are either Aid-able or Immune from Plunder

I still use the Special Production Buildings, but I know I'm also not getting attacked enough to worry on whether or not those get plundered

 

[Jackshat]

I've been playing for about 6 years. Early on, I was obsessed with city defense. I took getting plundered as a personal violation, so I loaded up my city with Ritual Flames, Watchfires, and every other means to make players with twice my stats sorry they tried me.
Now, I'm in Tomorrow Era, I have around 59 million ranking points, and a level 48 Galata. Like many, my city is maxed out on space, I've bought all medal expansions, and I have a lot of special event buildings that make a lot of goods. I usually rank about 5th in my neighborhood, so I rarely get hit anymore. Also, I produce enough goods that it wouldn't be a big deal if someone got by my Galata and grabbed a few of them.
I have gotten rid of many of those Watchfires and Ritual Flames, but there are still a fair number filling in various gaps in my layout. I'm thinking of making them all go away. It even occurred to me that I could scrap my Deal Castle, and use the space for an Arctic Orangery, or fit a couple of event buildings in that 7x7 space.

So, that sets up my question. After your game reaches a certain point, does city defense even matter?

While I admit I was like you, too, in my lower eras. I was obsessed with city defense once I got a taste of the wrong end of my first rogue army defense. Prior to meeting that rogue army, I thought I had mastered city defense in HMA...not! But, I quickly learned how to neutralize the rogues, and never lost to another rogue army.

Then, I began questioning why bother since the Krakens in my hood eventually wouldn't attack anymore. I figured, "I solved your rogue army, now solve my kraken defense."

It was no longer fun to whack their cities, which I did hoping to provoke them to send their rogue armies. I began to also realize city defense was a huge waste in space and resources with no true reward other than some obscure badge, and personal pride.

I stopped worrying about attacks and gutted anything that was uniquely city defense shortly after leaving HMA, I believe. No regrets...space is used to help my guild, not my singular pride to stuff an attacker, with nothing tangibly, truly gained.

You will have no regrets gutting city defense.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

But, I quickly learned how to neutralize the rogues, and never lost to another rogue army.

I'd be curious as to how you managed this. The only thing that ever stops my Rogue army (7 Rogues + 1 regular unit) is a very high defense, and that's only sometimes. So tell me, how do you "neutralize the Rogues"?

 

[xivarmy]

I'd be curious as to how you managed this. The only thing that ever stops my Rogue army (7 Rogues + 1 regular unit) is a very high defense, and that's only sometimes. So tell me, how do you "neutralize the Rogues"?

Not that I suspect it's his answer (since he's talking HMA), but Turturrets flip all the rogues fast. Usually 2 turturrets is enough that whatever's fighting you has wasted its "free hits" early. Leaving 6 units to counter whatever it turned into.

Artillery in general has been the traditional answer to rogues, but has the problem that it itself is weak so after turning all the rogues it doesn't kill enough.

 

[Jackshat]

Not that I suspect it's his answer (since he's talking HMA), but Turturrets flip all the rogues fast. Usually 2 turturrets is enough that whatever's fighting you has wasted its "free hits" early. Leaving 6 units to counter whatever it turned into.

Artillery in general has been the traditional answer to rogues, but has the problem that it itself is weak so after turning all the rogues it doesn't kill enough.

Yes, Sir! 3 ranged weapons with 5, slow, heavy soldiers advancing ("Kraken Defense"). All rogues were revealed before they could touch my heavies!

Extremely effective defense...200ish defender attack, 300ish defense. Yes, rogues tore those boosts asunder...til I reasoned, as xivarmy has, "turn the rogues before they can hit!"

Those in E. Nagach who once successfully sacked my city defense, know this defense was rock solid. All rogue armies neutralized.

Now, I'm whacked often. The Lady Redneck knows this well!

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

Yes, Sir! 3 ranged weapons with 5, slow, heavy soldiers advancing ("Kraken Defense"). All rogues were revealed before they could touch my heavies!

Extremely effective defense...200ish defender attack, 300ish defense. Yes, rogues tore those boosts asunder...til I reasoned, as xivarmy has, "turn the rogues before they can hit!"

Those in E. Nagach who once successfully sacked my city defense, know this defense was rock solid. All rogue armies neutralized.

Now, I'm whacked often. The Lady Redneck knows this well!

That would work only due to your boosts, not your strategy. Actually, against that defense I wouldn't even bother with Rogues. Eight artillery would be the preferred attacking army for that defense. However, since we're talking an attacking Rogue army, I would pair the Rogues with one or two artillery and win every time against that defense, given comparable boosts.

Not that I suspect it's his answer (since he's talking HMA), but Turturrets flip all the rogues fast. Usually 2 turturrets is enough that whatever's fighting you has wasted its "free hits" early. Leaving 6 units to counter whatever it turned into.

Artillery in general has been the traditional answer to rogues, but has the problem that it itself is weak so after turning all the rogues it doesn't kill enough.

The problem with using Turturrets against Rogues is that I would pair the Rogues with one or two Hover Tanks, thus negating those extra Turturret hits. Artillery isn't an answer to Rogues at any level I've fought from Bronze up to OF. Sure, it turns them faster, but that still absorbs one hit without damage. Against an artillery/ranged army (before TE) I just use one fast unit and 7 Rogues. Skip the fast unit's first move and then just hit auto. Game over for defense. In TE I would use one Stealth Tank and 7 Rogues and fight manually. In FE/OF I would obviously use one Hover Tank with the Rogues and fight the battle manually. In AF (Plasma Artillery) I would go back to the fast unit (Dragon Drone) strategy. All guaranteed wins unless the defense has ultra high boosts.

 

[Jackshat]

Right. I just stopped the losses, with the same boosts, after putting up the defense. Oh wait...it's Mr. Goode. My bad. You're right. No strategy whatsoever. Good grief. We'll never know.

 

[The Lady Redneck]

Now, I'm whacked often. The Lady Redneck knows this well!

Yes I beat you with the standard 2 harpoon grenadiers and 6 rogues set up,, That is virtually all I use in SAJM if attacking the hood. Or 8 gliders. I do not put in a defence army at all. Just the default 2 spear fighters

 

[Jackshat]

Yes I beat you with the standard 2 harpoon grenadiers and 6 rogues set up,, That is virtually all I use in SAJM. Or 8 gliders. I do not put in a defence army at all. Just the default 2 spear fighters

I can't even remember the last time I put up a city defense!

 

[xivarmy]

The problem with using Turturrets against Rogues is that I would pair the Rogues with one or two Hover Tanks, thus negating those extra Turturret hits. Artillery isn't an answer to Rogues at any level I've fought from Bronze up to OF. Sure, it turns them faster, but that still absorbs one hit without damage. Against an artillery/ranged army (before TE) I just use one fast unit and 7 Rogues. Skip the fast unit's first move and then just hit auto. Game over for defense. In TE I would use one Stealth Tank and 7 Rogues and fight manually. In FE/OF I would obviously use one Hover Tank with the Rogues and fight the battle manually. In AF (Plasma Artillery) I would go back to the fast unit (Dragon Drone) strategy. All guaranteed wins unless the defense has ultra high boosts.

Since it's only 2 turturrets, you still have 6 slots to beat (or at least hurt enough to make the attacker feel it a waste) the converted 8 hover tanks (which admittedly can be a bit of a problem, because hover tanks - but that's not a rogue problem ). And yea, you'll still need boost. More boost than makes sense because you need to at least come close to matching the attacker's stats to present a threat.

Also when talking city defense, you're assuming you know going in what you'll have to fight and on the second day technically you might. But the defender can also change what you face turning it into a game of rock paper scissors - as long as there's *something* they can put in to adequately punish any specific one of your attack armies (which sometimes can be a problem as well because not all ages are well designed with satisfactory counter-units).

I really think what they ought to do is merge city defense and attacker stats into a single pair of stats that apply to both, and then we can see what sort of strategies might make sense in PvP.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

I really think what they ought to do is merge city defense and attacker stats into a single pair of stats that apply to both, and then we can see what sort of strategies might make sense in PvP.

I think this would make things really interesting. The only trouble is that this far into the game's evolution there are too many buildings that are either attack- or defense-specific. Merging attack and defense would lead to a lot of redundant buildings. (Not that we don't have some already.)

As to the rest, I have a feeling that you and I would agree more than disagree on strategy and tactics. My only reason for posting what I have is in response to the ridiculous notion that @Wyldon had learned to "neutralize" Rogue armies. As we both know, only better boosts will do that (which is really the core of his response and not his "Kraken" lineup), and even then sometimes a smart attacker can figure out how to win.

 

[Jackshat]

No more ridiculous than a rogue army. You come with 8 ranged; I counter with fast movers or snipers next day. No strategy. Just mechanics of the game, then. May the highest boosted win. Wait a minute...were you in E Nagach attacking the KRAKEN DEFENSE with 8 trebs, and losing??? Blame it on the boost, but you never returned.