Do Advanced Players Care About City Defense?

[Emberguard]

I really think what they ought to do is merge city defense and attacker stats into a single pair of stats that apply to both, and then we can see what sort of strategies might make sense in PvP.

If we are going to stack Defending and Attacking stats together, for balancing purposes I'd like it to only apply to the Defending Army. Let the Attacking Army be purely Attacking Army Boosts

 

[xivarmy]

If we are going to stack Defending and Attacking stats together, for balancing purposes I'd like it to only apply to the Defending Army. Let the Attacking Army be purely Attacking Army Boosts

The current defending army buildings would have to have their values changed if they were also going to apply to both (otherwise watchfire becomes an even-better sentinel outpost).

So maybe sure, let existing attacking army bonuses apply to both and defending army bonuses remain defense-only things noone builds.

It'd still serve the purpose of making the opponents in PvP arena and hood require a little more finesse.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

Wait a minute...were you in E Nagach attacking the KRAKEN DEFENSE with 8 trebs, and losing??? Blame it on the boost, but you never returned.

I don't think so. My current city there is only in Iron Age, and none of the cities* I've started there has ever made it far enough to have Trebuchets. And I generally don't bother to attack neighbors anyway, regardless of their chosen defense. Not because they can't be beaten, but because they're not worth the time and effort anymore.

*Disclaimer: Cities I've started on that world were all one at a time and deleted before starting another one. In other words, never a push account.

 

[Brutus Strungth]

Thanks, playas! I rarely see unanimous opinion on these boards, but I see it here. Time to warm up my deleting finger. That was my inclination anyway. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.
BTW, couldn't agree more about the CF. I should have mine to level 80 in a week or two, and I have found that it makes the reward quests crazy-lucrative. After the attack buildings and Arc, it's my favorite GB.

 

[Oswyn the noble]

It was mostly a losing battle for me trying to protect my main city because it ate up too much resources...1 or 3 days of bliss, then when run out of tav silver...its a whole new cycle. Gone are the days when i exacted revenge. Its a revolving door scenario. They attack and plunder, you do the same. Its futile. Usually get good results when they accept to be friends, and /or they attack only from doing a quest

 

[Jackshat]

For those in HMA who still enjoy the challenge of city defense, but are stymied by rogue armies, try 3 artie and 5 heavy in city defense. You DO NOT need a massively superior boost advantage, just a comparable one. You WILL neutralize rogues before they can do any harm. And, if your boosts are comparable to your attacker, you'll likely be well on your way to earning a successful city defense badge. I think this setup was so successful for me, with comparable boosts, because attackers were so accustomed to an automatic rogue army victory, they either forgot how, or never learned how, to attack without rogues.

This defense also neutralizes the popular rogue army tactic of not advancing and letting city defenders march right into a rogue meat grinder. They may try that strategy, anyway, but when they realize you now have 3 trebs whacking, unchallenged, at distance and supporting 5 angry heavies, now at sword range, they won't sit and wait anymore.>

8 trebs (no rogues) defeats this, but you typically beat every other rogue army, like the popular heavy/rogues or champion/rogues (the 1st rogue army I ever saw and promptly lost too...twice--never again. You can defeat trebs/rogues, if your attacker doesn't understand how to use them.

Eventually, however, the fun of defeating the legendary rogue armies will abate...and you'll end up where we are--no city defense infrastructure wasting valuable space.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

For those in HMA who still enjoy the challenge of city defense, but are stymied by rogue armies, try 3 artie and 5 heavy in city defense. You DO NOT need a massively superior boost advantage, just a comparable one. You WILL neutralize rogues before they can do any harm. And, if your boosts are comparable to your attacker, you'll likely be well on your way to earning a successful city defense badge. I think this setup was so successful for me, with comparable boosts, because attackers were so accustomed to an automatic rogue army victory, they either forgot how, or never learned how, to attack without rogues.

This defense also neutralizes the popular rogue army tactic of not advancing and letting city defenders march right into a rogue meat grinder. They may try that strategy, anyway, but when they realize you now have 3 trebs whacking, unchallenged, at distance and supporting 5 angry heavies, now at sword range, they won't sit and wait anymore.>

8 trebs (no rogues) defeats this, but you typically beat every other rogue army, like the popular heavy/rogues or champion/rogues (the 1st rogue army I ever saw and promptly lost too...twice--never again. You can defeat trebs/rogues, if your attacker doesn't understand how to use them.

Eventually, however, the fun of defeating the legendary rogue armies will abate...and you'll end up where we are--no city defense infrastructure wasting valuable space.

A 5 Trebuchet 3 Rogue attacking army will crush this defense. First wave of defense arty converts rogues. First wave of attack wounds arty but does not kill to allow rogue conversion. Second wave of attack finishes off arty then works on heavies as they move forward.

 

[Jackshat]

Good! There's ALWAYS A COUNTER, just like this defense counters all other rogue-ladened attacks, like the popular heavy or champion rogue armies. So, now it becomes a game of cat and mouse--no more just lining up a heavy plus rogues and just sitting back til the defenders are close enough for rogues to whack them.

5 ponies and 3 trebs crush your 5 trebs and 3 rogue. That's the natural order of battle mechanics when players know what they're doing.

So, if a rogue army of champions, heavies, ranged, or even foot show up, it's no longer a guaranteed victory. So, rogue armies are neutered.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Good! There's ALWAYS A COUNTER, just like this defense counters all other rogue-ladened attacks, like the popular heavy or champion rogue armies. So, now it becomes a game of cat and mouse--no more just lining up a heavy plus rogues and just sitting back til the defenders are close enough for rogues to whack them.

5 ponies and 3 trebs crush your 5 trebs and 3 rogue. That's the natural order of battle mechanics when players know what they're doing.

So, if a rogue army of champions, heavies, ranged, or even foot show up, it's no longer a guaranteed victory. So, rogue armies are neutered.

You suggested an HMA defense that "will neutralize rogues before they can do any harm" which it will not do. There is no defensive army that will stop a persistent attacker which is why most, if not all, advanced players believe that buildings that boost A/D for the defensive army are a waste of space.

 

[Jackshat]

Except for the fact ANYONE can try this for themselves and prove it...AS I ALREADY HAD AND NEVER LOST WITH.

Rogues NEVER landed a phantom strike!

I'm quite confident others will experience the same...they may not win with their boosts, BUT THE ROGUES won't send anyone to the shadow realm.

How about we do this, we both start in the same new world. We'll go to HMA. Send your rogue army featuring either foot, champion, ranged, or heavy (there's a consensus artie beats this). I guarantee, all 7 rogues get turned without touching any of my troops.

I'm game to put my experience doing this against your opinion...

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

This statement:

Except for the fact ANYONE can try this for themselves and prove it...AS I ALREADY HAD AND NEVER LOST WITH.

Is not the same thing as these statements:

Rogues NEVER landed a phantom strike!

I guarantee, all 7 rogues get turned without touching any of my troops.

I can guarantee that the people you beat with your "Kraken" defense were either auto battling or inexperienced/incompetent at manually fighting. Or their boosts were inferior to yours. And you admit as much here:

I'm quite confident others will experience the same...they may not win with their boosts, BUT THE ROGUES won't send anyone to the shadow realm.

When I fight with Rogues, it's irrelevant to me whether they hit before they transform. Their hit is not the point of using them, it's the ability to absorb a hit without damage that makes them deadly. So no, my Rogues might not hit as Rogues, but they will be victorious over your vaunted defense. Every time.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Except for the fact ANYONE can try this for themselves and prove it...AS I ALREADY HAD AND NEVER LOST WITH.

Rogues NEVER landed a phantom strike!

I'm quite confident others will experience the same...they may not win with their boosts, BUT THE ROGUES won't send anyone to the shadow realm.

How about we do this, we both start in the same new world. We'll go to HMA. Send your rogue army featuring either foot, champion, ranged, or heavy (there's a consensus artie beats this). I guarantee, all 7 rogues get turned without touching any of my troops.

I'm game to put my experience doing this against your opinion...

You are saying that you have an HMA city set up with a defensive army of "3 artie and 5 heavy" and have never lost when attacked? Unless you have never been attacked this is fantasy. On your world you are in SAJM, ranked #1241 and have 19K battles. On my main world I am SAJM, ranked #91 and have 343K battles....but what do I know?

 

[Jackshat]

Relax...it's not your fault you don't know it all, nor is your score indicative of knowing it all. Nor do i. I KNOW THIS, THOUGH! Tried and proven.

My advice here is for HMA, who want to defend against the "impossible to defeat" rogue armies; not relics who couldn't, so no one else has. Astounding egos you have about something you clearly don't know.

It's easy enough for a curious HMA to try. Your apparent failures against rogue armies isn't my fault. Perhaps you have more to learn...

 

[Jackshat]

This statement:

Is not the same thing as these statements:


I can guarantee that the people you beat with your "Kraken" defense were either auto battling or inexperienced/incompetent at manually fighting. Or their boosts were inferior to yours. And you admit as much here:

When I fight with Rogues, it's irrelevant to me whether they hit before they transform. Their hit is not the point of using them, it's the ability to absorb a hit without damage that makes them deadly. So no, my Rogues might not hit as Rogues, but they will be victorious over your vaunted defense. Every time.

Yaaaaàwwwwn, says you. Pick a world...I'll be there. I noted you pivoted your argument. So, you concede rogues CAN be wiped out before they can hit. THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE DEFENSE...NEUTRALIZE THE ROGUES ABILITY TO INFLICT MAJOR DAMAGE BY TURNING THEM...THANK YOU!

From there, may the best equipped army win, BUT IT WON'T BE DUE TO THE ROGUES. I shared my experience NEUTRALIZING the rogue advantage which led to 100% successful city defenses. PERIOD.

Others may not have that success, but they'll at least give themselves a chance to stuff a rogue army now. Not against you in your HMA days, of course...

Later, peeps can try it for themselves. Good grief...we can meet on another world and do this...you pick the world; I'll be there...

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Relax...it's not your fault you don't know it all, nor is your score indicative of knowing it all. Nor do i. I KNOW THIS, THOUGH! Tried and proven.

My advice here is for HMA, who want to defend against the "impossible to defeat" rogue armies; not relics who couldn't, so no one else has. Astounding egos you have about something you clearly don't know.

It's easy enough for a curious HMA to try. Your apparent failures against rogue armies isn't my fault. Perhaps you have more to learn...

You are the one that suggested an undefeatable defensive army so don't make this about me. I never said that I had problems defending against armies that included rogues because that's simply stating the obvious. Everyone has problems defending because (1) defense boosts are almost always less than those of the attacking army and (2) when defending, it's AI defending against a real player. AI will go for the rogues while a real player will attack the base units first. I don't care what defense you claim to have used in HMA (or any other Era) any player with a reasonable attack boost will beat you. Prove me wrong. Send out a message to some of your hoodies asking them to attack you in order for you to test your defense. Send us the battle result after the attack is over.

 

[Pericles the Lion]

Yaaaaàwwwwn, says you. Pick a world...I'll be there...

I have IA cities on P, U, and W. I'll advance one to HMA so let's party.

 

[Jackshat]

I suggest a neutral world with NO military buffs at all. I'm not gonna build up defenses just to do this. It can't get anymore pure than your attackers vs my defenders--no boosts to skew results and YOU still have the advantage of actually controlling your attackers. So, an excellent proving grounds...

 

[Pericles the Lion]

I suggest a neutral world with NO military buffs at all. I'm not gonna build up defenses just to do this. It can't get anymore pure than your attackers vs my defenders--no boosts to skew results and YOU still have the advantage of actually controlling your attackers. So, an excellent proving grounds...

I'm not going to waste my time proving you wrong. First you claim an undefeatable defense. Then, you admit that it is not effective against arty (spoiler alert...I could also beat it with 1 Knight and 7 rogues). Now, you want to test it against another player that has "NO military buffs at all". What will be next? A condition that the attacker cannot use rogues? The topic of this thread is "Do advanced players care about city defense?" The consensus is "no" but feel free to go your own way.

 

[Jackshat]

You are the one that suggested an undefeatable defensive army so don't make this about me. I never said that I had problems defending against armies that included rogues because that's simply stating the obvious. Everyone has problems defending because (1) defense boosts are almost always less than those of the attacking army and (2) when defending, it's AI defending against a real player. AI will go for the rogues while a real player will attack the base units first. I don't care what defense you claim to have used in HMA (or any other Era) any player with a reasonable attack boost will beat you. Prove me wrong. Send out a message to some of your hoodies asking them to attack you in order for you to test your defense. Send us the battle result after the attack is over.

I didn't suggest an unbeatable anything. I stated my unbeatable streak with the defense designed to keep rogues from hitting my troops while I was in HMA, thereby NEUTRALIZING them. Period.

I related my HMA experiences, because that's where I first faced a rogue attack, lost twice, but never again once I turned them with trebs before they could hit--my main focus.

I don't have to invite anyone to attack anything. As I said several times now, I only addressed HMA, because that's where this done, before I realized the futility of city defenses at all. So, my neighbors did come...and they each failed. I'd have congratulated anyone who succeeded.

So, as usual in these forums, people want to argue about someone else's experiences to sate their narcississm. I recognize that.

So, let the three of us start new cities on naive worlds, grow to hma, no attacker/defender boosts, and you two can have at the defense. No sense using trebs, just like rogues make up for lack of understanding battle mechanics, do you need that extra attacker boost, we know trebs, properly used, are the answer. I'd just adjust defenses and play cat and mouse.

But, champion and heavy infantry rogue armies are the stuff of FoE legend. They were defeated soundly. Pick a naive world for our respective proving grounds--I'm only in E. Nagach...

 

[Jackshat]

I'm not going to waste my time proving you wrong. First you claim an undefeatable defense. Then, you admit that it is not effective against arty. Now, you want to test it against another player that has "NO military buffs at all". What will be next? A condition that the attacker cannot use rogues? The topic of this thread is "Do advanced players care about city defense?" The consensus is "no" but feel free to go your own way.

You'll note I never expressed a claim the defense was unbeatable, only that FOR THOSE IN HMA WHO STILL WANTED TO ENGAGE CITY DEFENSES BUT WERE GETTING TRASHED BY ROGUE ARMIES, i had a solution. Which I shared and still in the spirit of the OP's topic, while expressing why I stopped bothering with city defense, despite my success.

YOU and Goode took it beyond that by challenging my ACTUAL EXPERIENCES. Don't play coy now.

You said you'd dance on another world; I will join you on a world naive to both of us. You do have something to prove, apparently, after all your barking about my experiences...