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Do Advanced Players Care About City Defense?

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
So, your main focus was to hit the rogues before they could hit you. Interesting. ;) That's exactly what the attacker wants you to do.
Alas you cannot tell your defenders to hit the real units first :p

So yes, you want to hit the rogues as fast as you can with a minimum of units committed to it while the attacking army is far enough away that you still have a chance at the fight. (or at least at getting some kills). Otherwise you just still hit the rogues first, but later, and when the attacking army is in better position to kill you :p
 

Jackshat

Active Member
So, your main focus was to hit the rogues before they could hit you. Interesting. ;) That's exactly what the attacker wants you to do.
Rogues create an assymetrical advantage giving an attacker, with complete control of their armies, a 15 to 8 advantage. Since city defense is controlled by the computer and will incomprehensibly hit the rouges, first, if in range (a human controlling city defense would ignore the rogues and just hit regular troops making rouges useless), making sure weak players pretending to be strong can't also use the devastating hit power of a rogue, you turn them quickly.

Rogue attackers still have the extra turns they get by the AI being slaved to have to hit rogues, in range, first, but it was the rogues hitting that caused more harm to my defense than a weak commander using rogues to simulate a 15:8 engagement.
 
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Jackshat

Active Member
Alas you cannot tell your defenders to hit the real units first :p

So yes, you want to hit the rogues as fast as you can with a minimum of units committed to it while the attacking army is far enough away that you still have a chance at the fight. (or at least at getting some kills). Otherwise you just still hit the rogues first, but later, and when the attacking army is in better position to kill you :p
You know of what I speak. I did try a 6:2 heavy inf:treb, but that gave rogue attackers too much time and space to get rouges in a position to hit--which I wanted to avoid at all costs! That "Gryphon Defense" lasted only one encounter, rogues hit and my city was breached. I went back to the Kraken (5HI:3Treb) and never considered a 4:4, because YOU also know, we must get the rogues turned as quickly as possible, but still have enough formidable fighters on the battlefield to give us a fighting chance.

That's ALL this was designed to do. I had no idea it would be as effective as it was.

Btw...I did experience some savvy commanders, evident by how quickly they adjusted tactics and used ponies to try to get the trebs out of the way. But, the slower moving HI were still positioned close enough to the trebs to hit the ponies before they could take out the trebs.

There were some exhilirating battle videos to watch! Yes, there really were skilled attackers evident by how close some came to breaching my city, but trebs are the best answer to that defense. I think so many were so used to using the standard champion/HI rogue army, they'd forgotten basic battle mechanics of other more effective units against that defense.

Anyway, I don't come here to provoke arguments, but to share my experiences, not flame anothers.

HMAers, try it, if you still enjoy trying to defeat your attackers...
 
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xivarmy

Well-Known Member
You know of what I speak. I did try a 6:2 heavy inf:treb, but that gave rogue attackers too much time and space to get rouges in a position to hit--which I wanted to avoid at all costs! That "Gryphon Defense" lasted only one encounter, rogues hit and my city was breached. I went back to the Kraken (5HI:3Treb) and never considered a 4:4, because YOU also know, we must get the rogues turned as quickly as possible, but still have enough formidable fighters on the battlefield to give us a fighting chance.

That's ALL this was designed to do. I had no idea it would be as effective as it was.

Btw...I did experience some savvy commanders, evident by how quickly they adjusted tactics and used ponies to try to get the trebs out of the way. But, the slower moving HI were still positioned close enough to the trebs to hit the ponies before they could take out the trebs.

There were some exhilirating battle videos to watch! Yes, there really were skilled attackers evident by how close some came to breaching my city, but trebs are the best answer to that defense. I think so many were so used to using the standard champion/HI rogue army, they'd forgotten basic battle mechanics of other more effective units for that defense.

Anyway, I don't come here to provoke arguments, but to share my experiences, not flame anothers.

HMAers, try it, if you still enjoy trying to defeat your attackers...
I usually went with lights as the artillery partner back in the day (though it was in colonial) because the primary concern to a defense with a few artillery is an attack with all artillery (kills your artillery before they take a shot). So I wanted units that presented a problem to artillery as my others, and fasts often do stupid things when paired with other units. Hence lights.

But this was loooong ago. When 100% boost was a lot. Modern times I just throw 8 units in and forget about it. Focus on collecting on time. Because while there was some hope of costing a 100/100 boosted attacker something without investment in defense, modern boosts that are 10 times that are effectively invulnerable and it's not worth the investment to come close enough to them to be a danger.
 

Pericles the Lion

Well-Known Member
Alas you cannot tell your defenders to hit the real units first :p

So yes, you want to hit the rogues as fast as you can with a minimum of units committed to it while the attacking army is far enough away that you still have a chance at the fight. (or at least at getting some kills). Otherwise you just still hit the rogues first, but later, and when the attacking army is in better position to kill you :p
I don't follow. The "you" in this case is the AI, the player can control the order of battle but not the choice of targets. If I am the attacker then I want the defender to hit the rogues first
 

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
I don't follow. The "you" in this case is the AI, the player can control the order of battle but not the choice of targets. If I am the attacker then I want the defender to hit the rogues first
And the defender has to accept that they *will* hit the rogues first - so they want to hit the rogues asap from far away. Rather than hit the rogues up close and possibly even eat retaliation.
 

Jackshat

Active Member
I usually went with lights as the artillery partner back in the day (though it was in colonial) because the primary concern to a defense with a few artillery is an attack with all artillery (kills your artillery before they take a shot). So I wanted units that presented a problem to artillery as my others, and fasts often do stupid things when paired with other units. Hence lights.

But this was loooong ago. When 100% boost was a lot. Modern times I just throw 8 units in and forget about it. Focus on collecting on time. Because while there was some hope of costing a 100/100 boosted attacker something without investment in defense, modern boosts that are 10 times that are effectively invulnerable and it's not worth the investment to come close enough to them to be a danger.
It was fun, though!
 

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
I noted you pivoted your argument. So, you concede rogues CAN be wiped out before they can hit.
I did not pivot my argument, you did. I never conceded that Rogues can be wiped out, only that they can be transformed before they hit. And I went on to say that this fact is irrelevant to the discussion over whether a Rogue army can be neutralized, which is your stance. You can't decide whether to defend that original statement of yours or switch to a new stance that they can be transformed before they can hit but not necessarily beaten.
THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT OF THE DEFENSE...NEUTRALIZE THE ROGUES ABILITY TO INFLICT MAJOR DAMAGE BY TURNING THEM...THANK YOU!
And that's where your argument fails. Transforming Rogues does not neutralize them, it merely activates their main benefit of absorbing that first hit without damage. And you never said you could neutralize merely the Rogues. Your original statement was that you could neutralize the Rogue army, which is a totally different thing. Transforming the Rogues but losing the battle does not neutralize the Rogues nor the Rogue army.
From there, may the best equipped army win, BUT IT WON'T BE DUE TO THE ROGUES. I shared my experience NEUTRALIZING the rogue advantage which led to 100% successful city defenses. PERIOD.
And I contend that it was your boosts combined with your opponents' incompetence and not your strategy. And if you're remembering 100% successful city defenses, then you must have a faulty memory. Nobody with boosts that low would have 100% successful city defenses unless they just didn't get attacked. Anyone with any game experience knows that. And along with that faulty memory, you also misunderstand the Rogue advantage. It has never been their attack rating, it is their ability to absorb a hit without damage. Period. And I've been fighting with and against Rogues for well over 7 years in every era and on every world (except the new one.)
Others may not have that success, but they'll at least give themselves a chance to stuff a rogue army now. Not against you in your HMA days, of course...

Later, peeps can try it for themselves. Good grief...we can meet on another world and do this...you pick the world; I'll be there...
Take your pick I am in HMA now on Carthage. I am in EMA on Arvahall and Dunarsund. I am in Iron Age in East-Nagach. Pick one and I'll wait in HMA until you get there and are put in my hood. Then I'll take my Rogues and beat your "Kraken" defense every day with a different regular unit, starting with Trebuchets.
 

Jackshat

Active Member
Classic Goode. Bark bark bark bark bark for clearly self-serving reasons. Is there some kind of award for how many times you bark in the forums?

Enough. If you're in HMA and are curious, try it. If not in HMA, don't bark at me, because your experience is different. Good grief Mon!
 
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Jackshat

Active Member
I did not pivot my argument, you did. I never conceded that Rogues can be wiped out, only that they can be transformed before they hit. And I went on to say that this fact is irrelevant to the discussion over whether a Rogue army can be neutralized, which is your stance. You can't decide whether to defend that original statement of yours or switch to a new stance that they can be transformed before they can hit but not necessarily beaten.

And that's where your argument fails. Transforming Rogues does not neutralize them, it merely activates their main benefit of absorbing that first hit without damage. And you never said you could neutralize merely the Rogues. Your original statement was that you could neutralize the Rogue army, which is a totally different thing. Transforming the Rogues but losing the battle does not neutralize the Rogues nor the Rogue army.

And I contend that it was your boosts combined with your opponents' incompetence and not your strategy. And Take your pick I am in HMA now on Carthage. I am in EMA on Arvahall and Dunarsund. I am in Iron Age in East-Nagach. Pick
Like i said, a naive world where you don't have to gut your boosts and i don't have to waste time generating them. So, you can't b*tch about boosts. You pick a naive world to us both. We meet in HMA with only base troop attributes and your rouge army.

Then, there can be no whining about any boost advantage, because you sure would if i had a greater boost. You'll already have the rogue advantage, and total control over your forces, so you'll have no reason to bark...
 
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Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
Like i said, a naive world where you don't have to gut your boosts and i don't have to waste time generating them. So, you can't b*tch about boosts. You pick a naive world to us both. We meet in HMA with only base troop attributes and your rouge army.

Then, there can be no whining about any boost advantage, because you sure would if i had a greater boost. You'll already have the rogue advantage, and total control over your forces, so you'll have no reason to bark...
Sure. How about the new world, Dilmun?
 

Jackshat

Active Member
Lol...never imagined I'd enjoy starting from scratch, again! Since we're recruiting noobs, this will be a neat experience to remind me of what it's like starting with nothing.

Til we meet in HMA, Goode.
 

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
For those who want to follow the developments in this ongoing drama, I will start a new thread in the Tavern section of the Forum for @Wyldon and I to post updates.
I don't know if you can get there without the castle giving you a few levels along the way. It will be a challenge .
I thought about that, and the fact that we can't have the Tavern 4 hour boosts active when we finally fight.
 
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