[Question] Does it worth building Alcatraz for non GvG player?

[DeletedUser]

OK, let's go back to speed with regards to AO. It most DEFINITELY does improve speed. In CE, it has a very large effect. I go in there with that crazy artillery, and boom, nothing left after turn one. This happens on several fights per GE.

Not that I'm discounting the AO, I like mine on S world, but even before I had it I could do this in GE. And on V, where I don't have the AO yet, I do this every week. I use almost all Missile Artillery until the GE army starts using Attack Helicopters. One turn and done. Without the AO.

 

[Ta 152H]

Not that I'm discounting the AO, I like mine on S world, but even before I had it I could do this in GE. And on V, where I don't have the AO yet, I do this every week. I use almost all Missile Artillery until the GE army starts using Attack Helicopters. One turn and done. Without the AO.

Yeah, but if you really think about it, it's obviously not true. Nor could ever be in certain situations, regardless of attack. I guess the Kraken could change it as well, to some extent, but other than that ...

For example, the MA averages three hits, and the tanks, without the AO, require a minimum of three hits. So, you'd have an almost 50 percent chance, even assuming you always had a possibility of three hits per firing, of not killing the tanks. And since you'd then have no units left, you lose all your artillery.

And against Fast units, you better have a MASSIVE attack, which I doubt you have one that large, since if I remember correctly, they have +140 defense in late L4 GE.

The 8 tank scenarios are a nuisance without AO. With? Piece of cake.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yeah, but if you really think about it, it's obviously not true. Nor could ever be in certain situations, regardless of attack. I guess the Kraken could change it as well, to some extent, but other than that ...

For example, the MA averages three hits, and the tanks, without the AO, require a minimum of three hits. So, you'd have an almost 50 percent chance, even assuming you always had a possibility of three hits per firing, of not killing the tanks. And since you'd then have no units left, you lose all your artillery.

And against Fast units, you better have a MASSIVE attack, which I doubt you have one that large, since if I remember correctly, they have +140 defense in late L4 GE.

The 8 tank scenarios are a nuisance without AO. With? Piece of cake.

And how many 8 tank scenarios are there in each GE? One or two at most, if I remember right. And I don't know about you, but I never put 8 MA out there. If I do face the 8 tank army, I will usually go to my AAV/7 Rogue lineup. Seven MA with 1 AAV is my usual lineup. In the event of Fast Units (or first move units), I will usually put Rogues in my lineup in the same # as the number of Fast/first move units. And I rarely, if ever, use that lineup in late L4 GE. And like I said, once the Attack Helicopter starts showing up, I don't use the MAs.

 

[Ta 152H]

And how many 8 tank scenarios are there in each GE? One or two at most, if I remember right. And I don't know about you, but I never put 8 MA out there. If I do face the 8 tank army, I will usually go to my AAV/7 Rogue lineup. Seven MA with 1 AAV is my usual lineup. In the event of Fast Units (or first move units), I will usually put Rogues in my lineup in the same # as the number of Fast/first move units. And I rarely, if ever, use that lineup in late L4 GE. And like I said, once the Attack Helicopter starts showing up, I don't use the MAs.

There are way more than one or two, considering they can be on either wave.

Yes, that's my point! I use 8 MA against the tanks if I have AO. One turn, they're gone. No time, no mess. And it's surprisingly fun. Even if there is another unit in there, or two, if I have AO, I can normally wipe them out without getting my hands dirty.

Yeah, the helicopter definitely limits how often you can use them, since the artillery can't hit it. Even the PME fasts are a nuisance against the MA. But, I still use them, but obviously need some FlaK as well. I like the MA because the battles end really quickly. When it gets hairy at the end, I use them when needed, and sometimes they really are the best units. Tanks, for example.

 

[Woody*]

Plus, AO gives greater rewards, so the difference in FP paid is a bit less when you factor that in.

My analysis factors that in. The fact is that AF GBs are much harder to level than PE GBs. For example, the cost to the owner to level Traz to 10 is 3140 FPs, and AO is 4216 FPs. The extra 1076 fps are repaid in 107 days by the returns from the AO. On the other hand, those 1076 FPs could be put to another use if desired by players.

Level by Level, AO is much stronger.

This is a great point. Once a non-GvG player with an Alcatraz meets their needs for troops and happiness, their is no benefit to continued leveling. In contrast the AO continues to get stronger. Unfortunately, the gains are marginal (.2-.3% chance per level). Yes, the FPs increase, but the payoff time just gets longer and longer. [It is important to note that payoff time vary drastically if you power-level GBs, but that doesn't apply to 99% of players, so I'm using non-power leveled timelines]

I know people like looking at oversimplified mathematical models, because once you get too deeply into it, it becomes less clear and answers get less definitive. For example, those 21 spots, what do we put there?

Great question, hence the importance of play-style. Don't forget to account for the space-saving benefits of the Traz for most players.

With regards to culturals, I never need them, with or without the Traz.

I don't normally use them, but most players do...again this depends on the player.

**edit**
Ultimately, if you're going to GE at a high Age/Era you are going to want both an AO and a Traz. On the other hand, if you camp in Iron Age you can complete GE without either. The lower the age you camp, the more I recommend an Alcatraz before an AO because; a) the goods are cheaper, b) it's cheaper to level to the point you need to finish GE, c) it saves more space than an AO (assuming you need barracks and/or cultural buildings, and most importantly d) because it enables you to auto-attack much more easily, it saves much more time than the AO.

 

[Woody*]

One additional consideration is whether you might ever decide to GvG. In that situation, you'd probably also want both of these GBs.

 

[Ta 152H]

My analysis factors that in. The fact is that AF GBs are much harder to level than PE GBs. For example, the cost to the owner to level Traz to 10 is 3140 FPs, and AO is 4216 FPs. The extra 1076 fps are repaid in 107 days by the returns from the AO. On the other hand, those 1076 FPs could be put to another use if desired by players.

This is a great point. Once a non-GvG player with an Alcatraz meets their needs for troops and happiness, their is no benefit to continued leveling. In contrast the AO continues to get stronger. Unfortunately, the gains are marginal (.2-.3% chance per level). Yes, the FPs increase, but the payoff time just gets longer and longer. [It is important to note that payoff time vary drastically if you power-level GBs, but that doesn't apply to 99% of players, so I'm using non-power leveled timelines]

Great question, hence the importance of play-style. Don't forget to account for the space-saving benefits of the Traz for most players.

I don't normally use them, but most players do...again this depends on the player.

**edit**
Ultimately, if you're going to GE at a high Age/Era you are going to want both an AO and a Traz. On the other hand, if you camp in Iron Age you can complete GE without either. The lower the age you camp, the more I recommend an Alcatraz before an AO because; a) the goods are cheaper, b) it's cheaper to level to the point you need to finish GE, c) it saves more space than an AO (assuming you need barracks and/or cultural buildings, and most importantly d) because it enables you to auto-attack much more easily, it saves much more time than the AO.

The reality is, at lower ages, you need neither. I was finishing IA GE with +42/+30, and I may have lost four units.

Again, with regards to the forge points, you don't need to put those 1076 towards the AO, since it doesn't have to be L10. Your base assumption is they have to be the same level. I could easily argue that the AO with the same amount of points is considerably more powerful than the Traz (or the reverse, depending on GvG), and arbitrarily saying they need to be the same level isn't really a strong argument.

On the other hand, the happy wheels fall off the Traz after L10, whereas the passive for AO slows down immediately after L10, but then slowly accelerates. Happy for Traz goes down and down, and then down. It's that way for most, so I'm not singularly criticizing it.

Saying it's cheaper to get to the point where you finish GE is completely unsubstantiated. I completely disagree, because it doesn't really help win battles. AO does. Traz will NOT help you win that battle you just can't win. AO can, if it makes its appearance pretty dramatically. And you can do your first turn and surrender if you don't get the results you want.

With regards to the small percentage, you have to multiply that by the number of attacks you'll be making over both waves. .3% might not seem like a lot, but let's say you make 15 attacks, there's a 4.5% chance JUST THAT LEVEL will cause a hit. If you're fighting two waves, it's probably going to be closer to 30 attacks, or 9%. But, I think .3% is high, let's even go to .25, it's still 3.75%, or 7.5%. And you know how important those hits are. But, then, there are many that don't matter (you'd kill it anyway for example), so it's not as earth shattering as those numbers indicate. But, it's still really powerful.

I've never needed the Traz even at higher levels, but I desperately needed it for GvG. So, I don't think it's necessary at all, and if I really needed some rogues, I could put up camps rather than waste the FP on the Traz. There's no way to otherwise approximate the capabilities of the AO.

I think the average 'casual' player might need happy, but I'd say Hagia is a better choice because it gives about the same happy per square, and gives something everyone needs more of, FP. Troops? I never do, and I only rarely build barracks. Many other people won't either. Even then, all these new special buildings have massive happiness, so I just don't think it carries much value anymore for dedicated players.

 

[Woody*]

...so I go overboard by calling it the Trash...That's to offset the inertia of people considering this GB much better than it is, outside of GvG. It's cattle mentality, because everyone says it's must-have, everyone repeats it, and no one questions it.

I love this post. I agree completely that there is a herd mentality (for example, the "unfair" trade calculator that many guilds use), and you have made a great case for why some players should get an AO instead of a Traz. We might have different estimates on how many fall into that camp, but that's ok.

 

[Woody*]

Your base assumption is they have to be the same level.

I used it as an example, not as an assumption.

I could easily argue that the AO with the same amount of points is considerably more powerful than the Traz

Yes, we have heard your argument and how you use your example to apply to everyone.

On the other hand, the happy wheels fall off the Traz after L10,

True.

...whereas the passive for AO slows down immediately after L10, but then slowly accelerates.

Unless you are only referring to return per square, the AO doesn't accelerate, it flattens. Don't cherry pick level 10-11 and compare it to higher levels unless you are going to also point out where the AO return curve specifically flattens out.

Saying it's cheaper to get to the point where you finish GE is completely unsubstantiated. I

I agree I haven't substantiated it to your satisfaction, but I have played GE in 10 worlds at every level up to AF and I am 100% certain that for most players and play-styles it is cheaper.

I completely disagree, because it doesn't really help win battles. AO does. Traz will NOT help you win that battle you just can't win.

As previously noted, this is a great point.

AO can, if it makes its appearance pretty dramatically. And you can do your first turn and surrender if you don't get the results you want.

"[D]ramatically" is your characterization. However, even with a level 70 AO, I would characterize it as marginal and that the Kraken is a bigger difference maker in that regard (however, that statement varies based on which age you are in...the effect of both Kraken and AO are drastically different in varying ages).

With regards to the small percentage, you have to multiply that by the number of attacks you'll be making over both waves. .3% might not seem like a lot, but let's say you make 15 attacks, there's a 4.5% chance JUST THAT LEVEL will cause a hit. If you're fighting two waves, it's probably going to be closer to 30 attacks, or 9%. But, I think .3% is high, let's even go to .25, it's still 3.75%, or 7.5%. And you know how important those hits are. But, then, there are many that don't matter (you'd kill it anyway for example), so it's not as earth shattering as those numbers indicate. But, it's still really powerful.

Valid point

 

[Ta 152H]

I used it as an example, not as an assumption.

Yes, we have heard your argument and how you use your example to apply to everyone.

True.

Unless you are only referring to return per square, the AO doesn't accelerate, it flattens. Don't cherry pick level 10-11 and compare it to higher levels unless you are going to also point out where the AO return curve specifically flattens out.

I agree I haven't substantiated it to your satisfaction, but I have played GE in 10 worlds at every level up to AF and I am 100% certain that for most players and play-styles it is cheaper.

As previously noted, this is a great point.

"[D]ramatically" is your characterization. However, even with a level 70 AO, I would characterize it as marginal and that the Kraken is a bigger difference maker in that regard (however, that statement varies based on which age you are in...the effect of both Kraken and AO are drastically different in varying ages).

Valid point, although that's not how stats are calculated for multiple events.

You missed, completely, my point about the AO with regards to how it proceeds. Re-read it. I said after L11, it slows down a lot, but then speeds back up. It actually accelerates slightly at higher levels, but takes a hit at L11. So, I pointed that out.

OK, here's an example of why it does NOT flatten. L11-L12 (I use this because Wiki shows a very large increase from 10-11) goes from 7.39% to 7.53%, a paltry .14%. At 80, it goes from 23.82% to 24.14 at 81. Or .32%. That's not cherry picked numbers. It's about 228% from the early to the late. That's representative of it going up faster with levels, after it first tails off significantly. That was my point. Traz, on the other hand, goes from 11300 to 11852, 10 to 11. 80 to 81 31962 to 32161. So, 552 to 199. That's a paltry 36% of already greatly diminished numbers. So, one more than doubles, the other is a little over 1/3 of what it was. So, it's significant. That's what makes AO so powerful. After the hit it takes, it then slowly accelerates. Most GBs don't exhibit that for their passive.

I've played on well over 10 worlds, probably 15 to 20, and I'd completely disagree with your belief that Traz makes it easier to complete than AO. Plus, you're sticking with "old" thinking. Rogues are easier to get now, a lot easier. Hideouts are easier to get now as well. Daily Challenge makes both easier. I find AO makes it so easy I have zero need for additional units to clog up my inventory. I've only needed Traz for GvG, and then, yeah, tons. So, I'm not sure why, but my experience and yours are completely different. And I've done it enough times to have a good idea of what works for me. I've actually deleted a Traz because it was useless for me, and I knew I'd never do GvG on that world. If there's even a slight doubt, I'd keep it though.

 

[DeletedUser]

You all should get your own thread for this stupid argument. Hardly anyone has ever sat there and thought, "should I get the Traz or the AO?" It's apples and oranges for a multitude of reasons, and irrelevant to the OP's question.

 

[DeletedUser29055]

Not sure why this thread became Traz vs AO as well. In addition, a Traz is so much easier to get than AO. Not sure for other worlds, but in E, I had real problems to get Arctic goods for my AO.

It is still level 5 or 6 and I do like to see the sword, but in my opinion, the % are much too low to really make a difference in fighting. What level would an AO really be to make such a difference.

Now, Traz with unlimited rogues really makes a difference. For GE definitely. I'd build it.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

What I could do with that 2.68% is much greater than the Trash can do. 70 spots is a lot. You can sugar coat that all you want, but we both know there are a lot of really nice things you can fit in that space.

It is Trash, if you don't need the units. I said it's indispensable in one particular scenario, GvG. That's not to say it's useless in every other for all players, but I never need it except for GvG. In every other scenario, I accumulate unit after unit without it. So, something that takes 70 spots and does nothing useful for me, is Trash on the highest scale. I think for most people it does not warrant the space or the FP. But, in the scenario it was designed for, it's very, very important. I just don't think that is the typical situation anymore, so I go overboard by calling it the Trash. That's to offset the inertia of people considering this GB much better than it is, outside of GvG. It's cattle mentality, because everyone says it's must-have, everyone repeats it, and no one questions it. So, by using a disparaging name like Trash, it gets people to at least question the players that slavishly advocate building it, without understanding the situation fo the person who is doing so.

You're weirdly obsessed about Traz, I don't want to know why, may be a rather sloppy rabbit hole so I don't want to know. It's a GB, it's a unique GB, it's just another GB, there's nothing in that to get worked up about, either one finds it useful to their game or they don't. And one can say what you're saying about it to anything in the game, you know without this thing I could have that instead, hey if I get rid of all this I can have 50 Cherry Garden Sets, whatever.

 

[Ta 152H]

You're weirdly obsessed about Traz, I don't want to know why, may be a rather sloppy rabbit hole so I don't want to know. It's a GB, it's a unique GB, it's just another GB, there's nothing in that to get worked up about, either one finds it useful to their game or they don't. And one can say what you're saying about it to anything in the game, you know without this thing I could have that instead, hey if I get rid of all this I can have 50 Cherry Garden Sets, whatever.

You seem to be transposing whatever personal problems you have on me.

In reality, it's what this thread is about, so that's what I'm talking about. Duh. I mean, really, should I be comparing AO with Kraken on the Trash thread?

The Trash doesn't really matter to me, only that it's largely a symptom of cattle-like behavior does. I actually have found it useful in some worlds, but it's just not as broadly useful as people make it sound, and when someone asks about it, the hoi polloi give it too much of an endorsement without even asking about the person's situation. So, it's a symptom of something that bothers me, people not actually thinking about things, and just following a group mentality blindly. But even that doesn't bother me that much.

If it did, I'd be way more belligerent, whereas I'm largely arguing points. So, stop transposing, and take it for the way it is actually written.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

You seem to be transposing whatever personal problems you have on me.

ahm, no sir, that's called projection and that's all on you, here, I'll show you even say so;

something that bothers me, people not actually thinking about things, and just following a group mentality blindly. But even that doesn't bother me that much.

cattle-like

hoi polloi

Those cattle that bother you are the ones you have in your mind that you think you are speaking to in the abyss on this thread about their neon god the TRAZ, lemme help ya brother;

 

[DeletedUser34800]

I like the original better, but that was definitely good. First time I have heard that version, so maybe it will grow on me.

 

[Ta 152H]

ahm, no sir, that's called projection and that's all on you, here, I'll show you even say so;




Those cattle that bother you are the ones you have in your mind that you think you are speaking to in the abyss on this thread about their neon god the TRAZ, lemme help ya brother;

I guess you don't know what the word "transpose" means, so I'll give you a pass. But, look it up when you get the chance. But either way, you're obviously transposing (look it up, you'll be better for it) your anger or frustration on me. This type of thing doesn't make me angry. If it does you, maybe horse tranquilizers will help. But, people like you think you can manipulate me by stating if I argue a point, somehow there is something wrong with me. Sorry, won't work, I'll keep giving my opinion on it.

Bring up the Colosseum, ND, Oracle, or a few others, I'll be even more negative. But they don't have the silly following the Trash does. The Traz-Zombies are a force to be reckoned with.

Holy run-on sentence Batman! Needless to say, I didn't follow your link, since I don't listen to music suggested by the FoE hoi polloi. But thanks for the effort.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

your anger or frustration on me

lolz, get over yerself daddio AND ND ROCKS! [shivers, not] transpose that yo

 

[Ta 152H]

lolz, get over yerself daddio AND ND ROCKS! [shivers, not] transpose that yo

Yeah, and you have to wonder about the Inno wisdom of taking a really sucky GB, and then making another one even weaker (albeit smaller), and setting it up so new players are likely to build it.

That's not only demented, it's malicious!

 

[DeletedUser26965]

That's not only demented, it's malicious!

You're such a drama queen but you'll be okay, let em build ND if they want, you won't have to collect from it, does it even have a collection?