[Question] Does it worth building Alcatraz for non GvG player?

[Ta 152H]

You're such a drama queen but you'll be okay, let em build ND if they want, you won't have to collect from it, does it even have a collection?

I think you're just a regular queen, but you'll be OK. Well, if you lubricate properly .

I think there's a supply collection. Excellent, huh? Never can have enough of those bad boys. Or really, you can, but that's besides the point.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

I think you're just a regular queen, but you'll be OK. Well, if you lubricate properly .

I think there's a supply collection. Excellent, huh? Never can have enough of those bad boys. Or really, you can, but that's besides the point.

better watch out before they think we're lovas'

 

[DeletedUser32973]

Traz is cheaper to level, but it's also weaker per level, in my opinion. Three units a day is nothing compared to what you can save with the AO at lower levels.

I believe a lot of what you say has merit, but I'm really confused about this AO business. AO has a ~7% to crit at level 10. I wouldn't be surprised at having several battles without a single crit at non stratosphered levels. Am I missing something or what?

 

[Ta 152H]

I believe a lot of what you say has merit, but I'm really confused about this AO business. AO has a ~7% to crit at level 10. I wouldn't be surprised at having several battles without a single crit at non stratosphered levels. Am I missing something or what?

Yes, a few things.

7% per attack. How many attacks do you get per wave? How many attacks do you get for a double wave? Let's say 32 for a double wave, since there are 16 units. You'd have a 10% chance of getting no hits with it. So, yeah, I'd be really surprised if you had several battles without getting one. Even a single battle against 8, assuming 16 hits, would give you about a 69% chance to crit something per battle.

Now, you have to offset that because some bonus hits won't matter. For example, if I'd kill him even without AO, what difference does it make when it works? None. So, you'd have to measure it against how many hits would actually matter, which would be lower than those figures, but still be important in the vast majority of scenarios.

Moreover, let's say you have a difficult battle which has a small margin for error. So, your first turn, you take your attacks, and then at a point where you can cut off and lose nothing, you realize you haven't critically hit them. So, you can surrender, try again. This can be very useful in GE.

And then there's the other part where AO doesn't hit a wall like other GBs do after L10. Yeah, right after it goes down quite a bit, but then slowly increases at a faster rate. That's very unusual for the passive component of GBs. So, there is a lot of good in moving it up a lot, rather than getting less and less each level. That's important. Plus, 1 FP per level is matched only by Cape, which in itself is a very nice GB. But, AO requires a lot of FP to level compared to Cape, so is not as good in that one area, but it's still a very useful active bonus.

 

[Volodya]

Hi all,
I want to ask your advice...
I'm in CA, currently playing in a non-GvG guild.
Someone offered me to buy the Alcatraz goods for 250FP - the deal seems ok.

Questions:
1. Does Alcatraz worth it if I don't play GvG?

2. What is the common and efficient use of it?
I understand I still need barracks of the units I want Alcatraz to produce, so I still invest space for the barracks+pop+happiness...

Thanks,
Maor

I think this is a good question and the answer isn't really obvious. If you don't do GvG, and DO regularly complete four levels of GE, I think you'll get all the unattached troops you need without a Traz--except rogues. Remember, you'll save not only the space of the Traz itself but you'll probably have no need for barracks other than Rogue Hideouts either. I built mine enthusiastically when it first was available, before there was a GE, but I'm not sure I would build it now. I can't bring myself to tear mine down, but I'll probably never level it beyond its current level 6 either.

The biggest advantage to the Traz for a non-GvG player is that you can generate a LOT of unattached rogues in a hurry if you maintain a single Hideout as your only military building. I have currently around 1000 rogues in my army; that'll last awhile and I can easily generate more if I ever run short. With a Traz, I can and do afford to burn through rogues really carelessly; without a Traz, you'll need to be a lot more careful in your use of rogues.

 

[Woody*]

After the hit it takes, it then slowly accelerates.

You cherry picked again. Graph the numbers out and get back to me.

...I'm not sure why, but my experience and yours are completely different.

I know at least one reason why; play-style. You like to manually fight, and I don't because I view it as a waste of my time, and I like to auto (with a Traz, which you view as a waste of space).

 

[Ta 152H]

You cherry picked again. Graph the numbers out and get back to me.

I know at least one reason why; play-style. You like to manually fight, and I don't because I view it as a waste of my time, and I like to auto (with a Traz, which you view as a waste of space).

Wrong answer. I didn't cherry pick, actually open your eyes and read. Right after L11, AO crit hit goes up slowly, and continues to go up faster with levels. You have to be able to understand this, so I'm wondering why you're responding in such a bizarre way. Compared L15 to L16, compared to 85 to 86. Or 13 to 14, compared to 83 and 84. All tell the same story. If you can't read that, there's not much I can do to help you, you'd need something on your end to get past the mental block.

What the heck are you spending all your time doing? You were on an awful lot on P when I played there. So, you view manual fighting as a waste of time, but arguing in global chat a productive use of it? Well, I guess we'll just have to say we have different priorities. I'd rather play the game than talk about it, although both certainly have their attractions.

 

[Woody*]

Wrong answer. I didn't cherry pick, actually open your eyes and read. Right after L11, AO crit hit goes up slowly, and continues to go up faster with levels. You have to be able to understand this, so I'm wondering why you're responding in such a bizarre way. Compared L15 to L16, compared to 85 to 86. Or 13 to 14, compared to 83 and 84. All tell the same story. If you can't read that, there's not much I can do to help you, you'd need something on your end to get past the mental block.

What the heck are you spending all your time doing? You were on an awful lot on P when I played there. So, you view manual fighting as a waste of time, but arguing in global chat a productive use of it? Well, I guess we'll just have to say we have different priorities. I'd rather play the game than talk about it, although both certainly have their attractions.

Let me try to explain better what I mean. The boost increases but the increase per level plateaus, and then it just becomes more and more expensive for each marginal increase (which ranges from .31 to .34). Therefore, your statement that the crit goes up faster and faster is false. It is true up to a point.

I like spending time educating players, as it seems you do. And this is just an observation, not a criticism...I'd rather discuss theorycrafting of the game on the forums and educate folks than fight the same fight thousands of times in GE (although I don't mind the repetitiveness when it comes to GvG).

 

[Ta 152H]

Let me try to explain better what I mean. The boost increases but the increase per level plateaus, and then it just becomes more and more expensive for each marginal increase (which ranges from .31 to .34). Therefore, your statement that the crit goes up faster and faster is false. It is true up to a point.

I like spending time educating players, as it seems you do. And this is just an observation, not a criticism...I'd rather discuss theorycrafting of the game on the forums and educate folks than fight the same fight thousands of times in GE (although I don't mind the repetitiveness when it comes to GvG).

Yet, that wasn't my point, which was obvious from my statement regarding the percentage increase, nor is it possible in any context to say they are cherry picked numbers, as they are consistent for any level. They are actually arbitrary numbers I picked, and even then do not represent an increase per forge point invested. So, you're changing the argument rather than admit you were wrong, and that I was in fact not cherry picking levels.

In fact, AO goes up faster per level later on, which is what my statement said, and is correct. Traz not only fails to go up per FP(passive), but also per level. It goes down dramatically instead. Every level after the big jump at L10. Most GBs do. Per level. Forget FP per level.

If you're fighting the same battles thousands of times, you're probably playing on too many worlds. That's an observation, not a criticism . I tell you this from experience, as I deleted an account because of it. If one world is all you have (I'm not sure, not care enough to check), it's not thousands of times, because even allowing for some repetition of waves, one always has to keep both waves in mind while fighting, so it's not the same situation.

I don't care so much about game theory, it's a super simple game. I wasn't talking on the forum, you spent a ton of time on global chat too. For me, it's more my life-long attempt to get people to think, and re-evaluate ideas that are spouted without much thought, or without taking into account new realities. The game is just a mechanism for that, not the end goal. But, it's pointless. Dogma, repetition, hebetude, and cattle mentality make it a waste of time. Even so, I can't stop myself. I probably need a pill of some sort.

 

[DeletedUser32348]

i use it to make clones for GE. Its ma clone factory.

 

[Woody*]

Well, I can't explain it any clearer than that, lol.

 

[DeletedUser34480]

Interesting discussion! I've made half-way yet, but I'll finish it soon.

Ta152H, your premise is any decent player would have a sky-high GBs, ones that provide an attack bonus.
Yet, if you don't create dozens of accounts, waste your time churning quests, have friends with 80+Lv Arc-- and whatever less legal ways out there -- you are not going to have those attack bonus GB to be so powerful to not lose few units per battle, anytime soon. (I'm not talking initial easy fights). Then, most of other units will be wounded and will take its time to heal.

So, for majority of players who fight, Alcatraz is, actually, indispensable.

 

[Ta 152H]

Interesting discussion! I've made half-way yet, but I'll finish it soon.

Ta152H, your premise is any decent player would have a sky-high GBs, ones that provide an attack bonus.
Yet, if you don't create dozens of accounts, waste your time churning quests, have friends with 80+Lv Arc-- and whatever less legal ways out there -- you are not going to have those attack bonus GB to be so powerful to not lose few units per battle, anytime soon. (I'm not talking initial easy fights). Then, most of other units will be wounded and will take its time to heal.

So, for majority of players who fight, Alcatraz is, actually, indispensable.

Wow, that's a leap. A big one. I've had diamond farms with over 90% attack/defense, none with Arcs, or dozens of accounts. The idea that you'd have to cheat or have an Arc to do that is absolutely absurd. It's totally not true at all. Getting them to L70 is going to be difficult, but totally unnecessary, but getting them to L10, where the bonuses each level are substantial, is relatively easy without any of that nonsense you're talking about. And then all the special buildings available now that help, like from this event. It's really not hard at all to get a nice attack. And then, if you get Arctic Orangery, it's so easy. But blueprints and goods for that can be difficult, but it's not really necessary anyway.

I can't use the Traz, because I have more units every week from GE than the week before. Those 70 spots give you a lot of room to put other buildings, some of which can be very helpful.

 

[DeletedUser34480]

TA152H, well, it's not like I'm theorizing.
I play in just one world and, up until recent, I've had about 35 fp/day.
Unless a person decides to sit on one level (Age) or, to reiterate, do something out of ordinary -- we are not talking L10 attack buildings any time soon.

 

[DeletedUser32906]

Sorry if I mis-characterized your post.

No it's not. My AO is level 70 and it's not game changing like Traz. Again, play style is a factor, and with your play style, I have said I agree with you.

Not intentionally.

I agree this is a minor downer...but I mentioned it for educational purposes because I missed that caveat when it first came out, and others might benefit.

True

False, it has almost zero effect on speed. Maybe one or 2 fights per week in GE.

True, but not by much. Hard to quantify this, of course.

Yes, but you can auto many more fights when you have unlimited troops. The effect of the Traz in this regard is unrivaled.

Let me explain better then. If you invest 1000 FPs in your Traz and 1000 FPs into your AO you will have different capabilities. (I don't think either of us would advocate such a pure investment strategy, but just for the sake of argument). You will get a much higher return on investment on your Traz (it's cheaper to level), and the fact is that the extra cost of the AO levels will take years to pay off (the payoff on a level 10 AO is over 1.5 years, even if you assume that all levels and all prizes on those levels are taken by 1.9 trades (friends with level 80 Arcs helping you by locking spots at no profit). The extra FPs you save on Traz could go to extra levels on your other GBs. There is simply no comparison.

I was referring to the fact that Traz goods are much cheaper than AO goods

I agree wholeheartedly. However, for most players - even non-GVG players - will save space by not needing cultural buildings (something you unduly minimized for most players), needing less barracks, and therefore less population.

I enjoyed following this........ wanna add an AO at some point and all of this helps ...... Thank you

 

[DeletedUser34480]

You all should get your own thread for this stupid argument. Hardly anyone has ever sat there and thought, "should I get the Traz or the AO?"

Discussion itself is very educational.

 

[Ta 152H]

TA152H, well, it's not like I'm theorizing.
I play in just one world and, up until recent, I've had about 35 fp/day.
Unless a person decides to sit on one level (Age) or, to reiterate, do something out of ordinary -- we are not talking L10 attack buildings any time soon.

Maybe you should try something else. On Z, which is a pretty new world, I'm getting over 70 just from my city per day on average. Add quests, GE, DCs, and incidents, and it's well over 80 per day. This without spending money.

I've got a L4 GB, L7, L8, L10, L11, and L14. So, if you believe that, you probably are either not a very active player, or there are things you can do to improve your FP production and/or ability to level attack GBs.

 

[DeletedUser34480]

Maybe you should try something else. On Z, which is a pretty new world, I'm getting over 70 just from my city per day on average. Add quests, GE, DCs, and incidents, and it's well over 80 per day. This without spending money.

I've got a L4 GB, L7, L8, L10, L11, and L14. So, if you believe that, you probably are either not a very active player, or there are things you can do to improve your FP production and/or ability to level attack GBs.

Well, care to provide details?

For comparison, I'm providing mine.
It's about 24 "hourly" fp, 5 fp for visiting other's Taverns, few points from del Monte.
I've missed a Black Tower, as I've just joined around Thanksgiving, didn't get any meaningful set on Christmas.
I've got L7 Pillar (3 fp), bridge and dock (3 fp), and few SoK. Let's not forget, we need to even these points for the whole time played (7 mo).

 

[Ta 152H]

Well, care to provide details?

For comparison, I'm providing mine.
It's about 24 "hourly" fp, 5 fp for visiting other's Taverns, few points from del Monte.
I've missed a Black Tower, as I've just joined around Thanksgiving, didn't get any meaningful set on Christmas.
I've got L7 Pillar (3 fp), bridge and dock (3 fp), and few SoK. Let's not forget, we need to even these points for the whole time played (7 mo).

Pillar (3), Bridge (3), Hagia (5), 24 hourly, 3 TF (15), Baz(2), Gondola (3), 3 SSW(3), 4 SoK (4),L2 Emp (1), Moose(1),Toymakerx2 (2), Madame (1), Sugar (1), plus five Wells/Fountains.

On top of that, I get tons from GE (as well as city buildings like Farms that give tons), a lot from recurring quests, and a lot from daily challenges. Plus a few from incidents. So, well over 80 per day. Probably close to 90 because I get so many from GE primarily. Z started after black tower, so I missed it too. I started the first day, so it's probably close to where you are.

In summary, if you aren't doing GE, that's your problem. Not the rest of the stuff you think is. GE is what got me the three farms, the three SSW, and a couple of fountains, plus tons of diamonds and forge points. So, around 20 FP a day come just from GE buildings, not even counting the direct FP haul I get every week. I think that's where you're missing out mostly. By all means, it's something you can easily fix.

 

[DeletedUser34480]

I don't think it sums up for an average active player:

1. Not many guilds even open L4 in GE. (your 3 Terraces go here)
2. To perform there, you either need a superior attack -- or tons of goods + some diamonds (where would that come from?).
3. Check your neighborhood: how many people managed to to get both L7 Pillar and Bridge, like you did? And, trust me, I tried hard to get Bridge fully updated. (and got somewhat lucky with Pillar)
4. In GE, can you be more specific, "tons of fp"? I think, the average is about 30 for 3 levels -- and, quite a few players don't complete 48 encounters.
5. You can't get a lot from recurring quests, unless you sit in some particular (lower?) Age and a half of your city is busy churning it? So, if you just complete quests as they go, you hardly get 1 fp/day.
6. Daily challenge was introduced not so long time ago. Then, you still get, probably, about 5 fp/day (and that's counting in an occasional 100 fp).
7. Five "wells"... OK, I'll give that to an average player. I, personally, just can't stand the way they look -- not arguing that it's my problem.

Please let's not assume I'm not doing GE.
I'm on encounter 36 now, so far I've got 0 (as ZERO) fp.

So, I'm sorry, but it is not a realistic picture for a person who just plays a game, no tricks or help.
Therefore, if a regular player chooses to fight, he needs Alcatraz.