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[Question] Does it worth building Alcatraz for non GvG player?

Ta 152H

Active Member
True592 said:
I don't think it sums up for an average active player:

1. Not many guilds even open L4 in GE. (your 3 Terraces go here)
2. To perform there, you either need a superior attack -- or tons of goods + some diamonds (where would that come from?).
3. Check your neighborhood: how many people managed to to get both L7 Pillar and Bridge, like you did? And, trust me, I tried hard to get Bridge fully updated. (and got somewhat lucky with Pillar)
4. In GE, can you be more specific, "tons of fp"? I think, the average is about 30 for 3 levels -- and, quite a few players don't complete 48 encounters.
5. You can't get a lot from recurring quests, unless you sit in some particular (lower?) Age and a half of your city is busy churning it? So, if you just complete quests as they go, you hardly get 1 fp/day.
6. Daily challenge was introduced not so long time ago. Then, you still get, probably, about 5 fp/day (and that's counting in an occasional 100 fp).
7. Five "wells"... OK, I'll give that to an average player. I, personally, just can't stand the way they look -- not arguing that it's my problem.

Please let's not assume I'm not doing GE.
I'm on encounter 36 now, so far I've got 0 (as ZERO) fp.

So, I'm sorry, but it is not a realistic picture for a person who just plays a game, no tricks or help.
Therefore, if a regular player chooses to fight, he needs Alcatraz.
Click to expand...

I can't speak for poor players, but I'm telling you a path that works. If you choose to try to paint it as unusual, I think it's entirely a false impression.

I didn't join a guild, I made my own, and opened L4. I did get one Terrace from L3 though. So, ANYONE can open L4. ANYONE.

I finished L4 with around +34/+30 in IA, so not a particularly compelling attack. It was easy to get. ANYONE can get it.

Virtually everyone who focused on the L7s got them. The only people that didn't were distracted by other prizes. I can't say they made a mistake or not, but it was a different choice than I made. We had discussions in global for this, and I know quite a few people went for SoK or RH if I remember correctly. But, pretty much everyone could get L7 if that was their primary focus.

I play 64 encounters, like everyone can, and get far more than that. I don't count, but between the relics and the chest prizes, it's way north of 30 FP. L4 is a must do level, or you'll end up complaining about how you can't do things I can.

Recurring quests probably give about what you say, if that. But, they all add up.

So again, my premise was correct, and you've verified it. You need to do GE, and you need to do it right away. If you do, you'll understand how things really work if you're a good player, and you'll kick yourself for not doing it sooner, and making excuses. You can do it, don't give up so easily. The rewards are uneven, for sure, but well worth it. If you don't, then you have no grounds to tell me how unusual it is. I'm giving you a proper path that is accessible to people that want to take it. It's not my fault if you choose not to. It's soooo worth it.
 

Ta 152H

Active Member
Ozyman Tremble Weaklings said:
No, she said near, which isn't defined as before or after but close to. Semantics!!!
Click to expand...

Use some context, please. I said it started after, which is correct. The only reason someone would post otherwise would be to counter-indicate the information given, as it was incorrect. In fact, it was correct. I'm not sure five days after an event would be considered near anyway, but that's completely up to interpretation.

More the point, if someone intended to imply after, they would have indicated it more clearly, like "just after", "shortly after", etc... Not near the end. In common usage, that strongly implies while it is still going on. After the end would have been used otherwise.

Either way, my statement was correct. I remember, because I really liked the Tower, but, alas, no way to get it.
 

DeletedUser31440

TA152H said:
Use some context, please. I said it started after, which is correct. The only reason someone would post otherwise would be to counter-indicate the information given, as it was incorrect. In fact, it was correct. I'm not sure five days after an event would be considered near anyway, but that's completely up to interpretation.

More the point, if someone intended to imply after, they would have indicated it more clearly, like "just after", "shortly after", etc... Not near the end. In common usage, that strongly implies while it is still going on. After the end would have been used otherwise.

Either way, my statement was correct. I remember, because I really liked the Tower, but, alas, no way to get it.
Click to expand...

If I used context there would have been nothing to respond to. Sometimes you just gotta argue semantics for the sake of semantics.
 

DeletedUser34800

You need a Snowwoman perhaps. Though a Snowman works if you prefer that.
 

DeletedUser34480

Frankly, I don't even know where to start.... I don't want to be impolite either, it ruins discussion.

TA152H said:
I can't speak for poor players
Click to expand...
"Poor" as below average? If so, I didn't try to account for them, rather speaking about top 30 percentile.

So, ANYONE can open L4. ANYONE.
Click to expand...
Not really. Takes a lot of resources, per each player -- even if just every fifth or sixth player would go L4.

I finished L4 with around +34/+30 in IA, so not a particularly compelling attack. It was easy to get. ANYONE can get it.
Click to expand...
I'm having serious trouble to characterize this statement... How about you forgot and it could not be even close to that?
In IA, your unit is killed with 2 hits, plain and simple. I believe it takes at least 15%+ of attack/defense bonus to stand after 2 hits.
So, it is not about what units to have after L4. It's about not making it to L4 altogether.

Virtually everyone who focused on the L7s got them.
Click to expand...
You are so wrong.
Not only I was focused on upgrades only, I've spend quite a lot of diamonds trying to succeed.
I didn't blow games either, as I have two of those Pinocchio.
It just didn't go my way.
At the end, I was so pissed, I did switch to other staff -- but by then, it was only a chance to get L5 instead of my L4.

I play 64 encounters, like everyone can
Click to expand...
Once again, it's hard to reply for such statement properly :)
 

Ta 152H

Active Member
True592 said:
"Poor" as below average? If so, I didn't try to account for them, rather speaking about top 30 percentile.

Not really. Takes a lot of resources, per each player -- even if just every fifth or sixth player would go L4.
Click to expand...

Once again, you simply ignore what I tell you, and prefer to find the wrong path. You can open your own guild, and open L4 yourself very easily. It's really that easy. Or you can join a guild that opens L4; you have that choice. If they don't, move along to one that does. It's really something you have complete control over. Use it. But not as an excuse. You have to do L4 to be a competitive player, that's the constant. Everything I'm telling you works if you do. How you do that is up to you, but clearly is up to you. Besides, if you aren't doing L4, how are you losing units that make you need a Traz anyway??? I don't think I lose a single unit in the first three levels.

I'm having serious trouble to characterize this statement... How about you forgot and it could not be even close to that?
In IA, your unit is killed with 2 hits, plain and simple. I believe it takes at least 15%+ of attack/defense bonus to stand after 2 hits.
So, it is not about what units to have after L4. It's about not making it to L4 altogether.
Click to expand...

Dude, my current attack is only 61/44 on Z, and I've completed L4 for well over three months now, and I keep putting all the FPs from GE into my CoA. And I've won a bunch of buildings in that time interval that increase attack. I haven't even had my CoA for two months, so my defense was +30. I think attack was +37, but maybe was a few higher, I really don't remember that 100%, but it wasn't over 40.

It's all about maximizing bonuses versus different units, and there's also the tavern boost which gives you a quick 30%. I do use that to minimize losses at times.

You are so wrong.
Not only I was focused on upgrades only, I've spend quite a lot of diamonds trying to succeed.
I didn't blow games either, as I have two of those Pinocchio.
It just didn't go my way.
At the end, I was so pissed, I did switch to other staff -- but by then, it was only a chance to get L5 instead of my L4.
Click to expand...

Well, I got far more than just the L7, and actually had started on another one, but not enough where it was worth the space. While the event was going on, a lot of us spoke about this in global, and it was pretty much established that you could get L7 if you really wanted it, but many felt like getting L5 and getting other stuff (like SoK) made more sense. I'm not sure why you weren't able to get it, but it's an outlier in my experience. But, then again, I've had events where NOTHING went right, and I got screwed, so I do understand how frustrating that is. But, as I said, virtually everyone, not everyone. Inno's "random" number generator is not really that random, and even if it were, there would be some that would still end up that way. But, that's a small percentage.

Also keep in mind, GE gets you diamonds, I think around 150 per week if you do L4. That also helps you do better in events. But, sometimes, Inno just has it out for you.

To sum it up, if you want to keep doing what you're doing, I can't help you. You're defending failed practices, and claiming successful ones are invalid because you don't want to make a change. I'm saying this to be rude, but to annoy you enough where you decide to take a better path and get going on L4 GE. If you do, you'll get better stuff, generate far more FP, push your GBs higher as a result, and you'll get more diamonds so you can spend them on events. If you want to make excuses like most guilds don't do this or that, or I'm making up numbers, what can I do? You're just making excuses for resisting change that can help you. I can only show you the path, and show you it's been successful, and explain why. You have to be willing to jump out of your comfort zone, and do it. If you do, you'll be happy you did. If you want to keep telling me it's not true, or it can't be done, then live with what you have now, but don't tell me what I'm saying isn't possible. It is.

Oh, and by the way, I got another Terrace Farm this week, I finished up yesterday. Now to place it, which is never too easy. But, I'll have it down later today.
 

DeletedUser29726

The main way I can see from a city development perspective to justify the space that traz takes up is if you're a very active plunderer. That's up to 70 or so extra buildings daily you can collect that aren't taking up space in your city at all. If traz enables you to do a lot more of those collections then it justifies its space.

From a GE perspective, traz merely allows you to be lazy and not care about dead rogues - a lot of people value that and that's why they've been very ferverent in their defense of traz. But it doesn't really enable much if you're a careful fighter with all the other sources for unattached troops in the game now.

From a GvG perspective, traz is irreplaceable (as noone above has disagreed). Mostly because speed matters in GvG and speed kills. You have to be able to not care about dead rogues ;)

AO, which has been brought into the discussion despite not being part of the original question otoh I would not recommend at all until you're an FP monster. At level 10 it's only a 7% chance to crit iirc. You need to have the capability to get that thing to say level 60 before you should consider building it. As Claire has pointed out as well, if you're building it for FP returns you're pretty much just wrong because AF/OF buildings are extremely expensive to level. Even with the help of arcs it'll take a long time to make back FPs you spend on it. For a not-super-levelled-alternative to AO Kraken is an ok helper for GE if you want something more before you're a monster. You can time hard fights to try them at your collection time, restart the fight until you get the proc that kills a unit and it's a much bigger impact than a low level AO usually. I'm not saying I recommend it - just that it's better than AO at low GB levels.

Short version for military development :
1) Get 3 core military boost buildings to level 10/11 and build a traz and/or kraken if you want one. This is already enough to do at least GE3 comfortably in any age (by very late ages you might want to add some of those attack boosting barracks or event buildings with the same effect - but you don't need more GBs). GE4 possible in some ages as well but if not for you it's probably cheaper to negotiate it than to develop GBs further than this point (and the rewards ARE too good to skip it imo).
2) Improve your daily FP production to the point where you can level buildings relatively easily through low levels (terrace farms, event buildings, etc)
3) Get an arc, level it to somewhere in the range of 60-80
4) Level the crap out of inno tower and cape canaveral using your arc to get blueprints and others arcs to speed it up by taking high spots (they're cheap to level once arcs are in the picture and greatly improve your daily FP production)
5) Get an orangery now that you have the infrastructure needed to level the thing to high levels where it provides a real impact. Can also choose to add extra levels to your boost buildings and traz at this point as you feel best. You're trivialising stuff at this point anyways so it's not terribly important what goes first.
 

Ta 152H

Active Member
xivarmy said:
The main way I can see from a city development perspective to justify the space that traz takes up is if you're a very active plunderer. That's up to 70 or so extra buildings daily you can collect that aren't taking up space in your city at all. If traz enables you to do a lot more of those collections then it justifies its space.

From a GE perspective, traz merely allows you to be lazy and not care about dead rogues - a lot of people value that and that's why they've been very ferverent in their defense of traz. But it doesn't really enable much if you're a careful fighter with all the other sources for unattached troops in the game now.

From a GvG perspective, traz is irreplaceable (as noone above has disagreed). Mostly because speed matters in GvG and speed kills. You have to be able to not care about dead rogues ;)

AO, which has been brought into the discussion despite not being part of the original question otoh I would not recommend at all until you're an FP monster. At level 10 it's only a 7% chance to crit iirc. You need to have the capability to get that thing to say level 60 before you should consider building it. As Claire has pointed out as well, if you're building it for FP returns you're pretty much just wrong because AF/OF buildings are extremely expensive to level. Even with the help of arcs it'll take a long time to make back FPs you spend on it. For a not-super-levelled-alternative to AO Kraken is an ok helper for GE if you want something more before you're a monster. You can time hard fights to try them at your collection time, restart the fight until you get the proc that kills a unit and it's a much bigger impact than a low level AO usually. I'm not saying I recommend it - just that it's better than AO at low GB levels.

Short version for military development :
1) Get 3 core military boost buildings to level 10/11 and build a traz and/or kraken if you want one. This is already enough to do at least GE3 comfortably in any age (by very late ages you might want to add some of those attack boosting barracks or event buildings with the same effect - but you don't need more GBs). GE4 possible in some ages as well but if not for you it's probably cheaper to negotiate it than to develop GBs further than this point (and the rewards ARE too good to skip it imo).
2) Improve your daily FP production to the point where you can level buildings relatively easily through low levels (terrace farms, event buildings, etc)
3) Get an arc, level it to somewhere in the range of 60-80
4) Level the crap out of inno tower and cape canaveral using your arc to get blueprints and others arcs to speed it up by taking high spots (they're cheap to level once arcs are in the picture and greatly improve your daily FP production)
5) Get an orangery now that you have the infrastructure needed to level the thing to high levels where it provides a real impact. Can also choose to add extra levels to your boost buildings and traz at this point as you feel best. You're trivialising stuff at this point anyways so it's not terribly important what goes first.
Click to expand...

I strongly disagree with your perspective on AO, as it no way relates to my experience, and also doesn't approximate it's value on "paper". You have to multiply the 7% by the number of hits in a battle. It's not 7% chance of having an impact, it's 7% per hit. With two waves, meaning 16 units, each need two hits to kill, you'll average over two crit hits per battle. Now, the thing that mitigates this is, will they both matter? So, it's not THAT powerful. On the other hand, you may need more than two hits to kill units, particularly if you're using artillery, but either way, I'm just pointing out that 7% isn't a really lower number in this context, because it's multiplied by a huge number of hits.

Kraken has a 32% chance of eliminating a unit from the first way by comparison, at L10. So, AO will work roughly 7x more often, and potentially helps with both waves. Even allowing for the fact that the results may not end in one hit, or be relevant (if you'd kill it anyway, the 50% boost doesn't help), it's still going to be more powerful, given 7x more hits. And it won't abandon you (you hope anyway), the second wave.

Kraken will also only work for 12 battles at L10, AO works for all of them. AO also helps defend your city.

Also, at L10, AO gives more FP, but requires less FP to level. As you move up, Kraken will eventually get to the point where it can pretty much automatically kill one unit, but only one unit, per battle. AO gets to the point where it's critically hitting several times per eight attacks, on average. So, the scope is much less limited.

It also gives out 25% more FP per level than Kraken. But the saving grace for the Kraken is, it's small at 5x5, so that's a big plus compared to AO.

Even so, AO has so much more impact, has greater potential, gives more FP while requiring less to level, I don't view Kraken as nearly an important GB, even early on. The sooner you get AO and move it up, the better.

But I will agree, it's not "must-have" at lower ages by any means. You can easily do without it, but I believe you can more easily do without the Kraken.
 

DeletedUser29726

you can't count every hit in the battle as 'valuable if AO crits' as many of the hits will either be on a unit that would've died to a noncrit or so late in the battle that it doesn't matter if you crit anymore because it's the last few units. Overall i consider a battle as having 4-8 chances for a potentially meaningful crit.

Building either of them for FP is just wrong anyways so the fact that kraken is worse for FP is hardly relevant.

I don't honestly recommend either just that if you're going to build one and you're not going to take it to high levels then i'd say do kraken as you can use it to restart a fight til you get the free kill that you felt you needed - even at level 1 it's doable. Sometimes you can do the same with AO but it's not as much of a sure thing that the time for 'when i need that crit' will be before you start getting hit. Also AO doesn't work with different age units - so if you're someone who's ahead on the continent map to make GE easier it in fact will do nothing for those fights at all.

AO was created as a toy for people with too many FP already to enjoy and should be treated as such. It has potential for great power but only with great investment.
Kraken was created as a marginally useful building that would help a little at all levels but wouldn't add too much power creep due to the fight limit.
Neither really belong in a heavily optimised early city, but I personally would choose Kraken if i had to put one up at that point.
Both will probably find their way into most later cities as people start getting a lot more space and FP to waste (and i'm not sure which i'd choose first - it'd depend a lot on where/how much i was fighting).
 

Ta 152H

Active Member
xivarmy said:
you can't count every hit in the battle as 'valuable if AO crits' as many of the hits will either be on a unit that would've died to a noncrit or so late in the battle that it doesn't matter if you crit anymore because it's the last few units. Overall i consider a battle as having 4-8 chances for a potentially meaningful crit.

Building either of them for FP is just wrong anyways so the fact that kraken is worse for FP is hardly relevant.

I don't honestly recommend either just that if you're going to build one and you're not going to take it to high levels then i'd say do kraken as you can use it to restart a fight til you get the free kill that you felt you needed - even at level 1 it's doable. Sometimes you can do the same with AO but it's not as much of a sure thing that the time for 'when i need that crit' will be before you start getting hit. Also AO doesn't work with different age units - so if you're someone who's ahead on the continent map to make GE easier it in fact will do nothing for those fights at all.

AO was created as a toy for people with too many FP already to enjoy and should be treated as such. It has potential for great power but only with great investment.
Kraken was created as a marginally useful building that would help a little at all levels but wouldn't add too much power creep due to the fight limit.
Neither really belong in a heavily optimised early city, but I personally would choose Kraken if i had to put one up at that point.
Both will probably find their way into most later cities as people start getting a lot more space and FP to waste (and i'm not sure which i'd choose first - it'd depend a lot on where/how much i was fighting).
Click to expand...

I mentioned that not all hits are important, but it hits seven times more often. That's going to equate into more damage and being more useful.

Even two crit hits can have an enormous impact on battle. Or they can mean nothing. Oversimplifying to the point where if it's not huge, it's nothing is what you did in both cases. FP may not be the salient characteristic of the building, but it still matters. A good amount. To say forge points don't matter because it's not the primary reason for building it is absurd, because they still count. The difference still counts, and forge points are the name of the game. Literally.

Since you're not the designer, you're not in a position to say why AO was created, no offense. I think it was made to facilitate those really difficult late age, late L4 GE fights. You know, where they have that monstrous +250 or higher defense. It's what separates the men from the boys. The smart players from the followers. And should be treated as such. See how silly going on like that is? I can paint my own picture, and so can you, but it's not constructive since neither of us really know. But, it changes fighting in a huge way in certain ages. CE for example, with that mobile artillery. It turns a mule into a racehorse.

You can do the same thing with AO as Kraken, by the way, I do recommend it. You take your first seven shots, and if you don't get a crit, you can restart unless the terrain or other situation is very favorable. Or surrender, try again. Plus, you still have more possibilities left, particularly on the tough second wave.
 

DeletedUser29726

TA152H said:
Since you're not the designer, you're not in a position to say why AO was created, no offense. I think it was made to facilitate those really difficult late age, late L4 GE fights. You know, where they have that monstrous +250 or higher defense.
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But my hover tanks can't crit in OF GE4 ;) Yes some people do love their (high level) AOs in GE. Personally I find 300% boosted hover tanks far more reliable in an age with poor antistealth methods (adding a few rogues to absorb initial medusa shots).

While I'd agree CE is defintely an age that AO shines (since so much of it revolves around assault tanks which you have 2 chances to crit on each to save a hit) i'm surprised that it works well with the missile artillery - most multihit units only the primary target can be crit (if that's different with missile artillery that is indeed amazing - and i'd wonder if it's a bug that'll be fixed at some point). And one of the biggest problems with the missile artillery is that if you get bad luck you can't surrender to save them because they're just gone. My usual answer for that dilemma is to mix them with a couple strike teams and surrender if i can't get the strike teams to a forest the first turn. From forest they can nearly always make up for a little bad luck on what the missile artillery hits.
 

DeletedUser34480

TA152H, I just keep hearing "things are as I say, if not then it's wrong".
I see now your point on L4: open a guild just for yourself or join one where it always opens.
Yet, we are talking about average player, so L4 is out of picture a lot of times. So, in this common situation Alcatraz is needed :)

how are you losing units that make you need a Traz anyway??? I don't think I lose a single unit in the first three levels.
....
Dude, my current attack is only 61/44 on Z, and I've completed L4 for well over three months now...
I haven't even had my CoA for two months, so my defense was +30.... attack [ ] wasn't over 40.
Click to expand...

You think you're strengthening your position, but actually just making it worse.

Here the facts: I have 91/45. (with 30% from Tavern)
I won #39, but lost 7 of 8 units.
I lost #40 (and it wasn't "almost won").

You may think I'm a bad fighter.

He's what we'll do.
I'll give you a chance to orchestrate a set up.
I'll post screen shots of 1st and 2nd wave. Then, you chose fighters and I'll click on auto battle.
You claim you barely lose units.
Go ahead, and win it with few units standing (it'd still be -5/-6 units, which still calls for Alcatraz).
If you lose, you'll need to admit that to fight later stages of L3 and on L4, you'd need some 100%+ on both offense and defense.

Do we have a deal?


it was pretty much established that you could get L7 if you really wanted it
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Just words.
Once again, check out your neighborhood, how many players have L7 of both Pillar and Bridge? Or, just even Bridge alone.
Does it support your words anyhow?
Or do we come to conclusion that 90% of players didn't really want L7 prizes?
I hardly see even L6s around!
 

DeletedUser30900

True592 said:
TA152H, I just keep hearing "things are as I say, if not then it's wrong".
I see now your point on L4: open a guild just for yourself or join one where it always opens.
Yet, we are talking about average player, so L4 is out of picture a lot of times. So, in this common situation Alcatraz is needed :)



You think you're strengthening your position, but actually just making it worse.

Here the facts: I have 91/45. (with 30% from Tavern)
I won #39, but lost 7 of 8 units.
I lost #40 (and it wasn't "almost won").

You may think I'm a bad fighter.

He's what we'll do.
I'll give you a chance to orchestrate a set up.
I'll post screen shots of 1st and 2nd wave. Then, you chose fighters and I'll click on auto battle.
You claim you barely lose units.
Go ahead, and win it with few units standing (it'd still be -5/-6 units, which still calls for Alcatraz).
If you lose, you'll need to admit that to fight later stages of L3 and on L4, you'd need some 100%+ on both offense and defense.

Do we have a deal?



Just words.
Once again, check out your neighborhood, how many players have L7 of both Pillar and Bridge? Or, just even Bridge alone.
Does it support your words anyhow?
Or do we come to conclusion that 90% of players didn't really want L7 prizes?
I hardly see even L6s around!
Click to expand...
He’s not gonna give you nothing, quit trying, this guy can do nothing but lie about his incredible fighting skills
 
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