[Question] Does it worth building Alcatraz for non GvG player?

[Ta 152H]

TA152H, I just keep hearing "things are as I say, if not then it's wrong".
I see now your point on L4: open a guild just for yourself or join one where it always opens.
Yet, we are talking about average player, so L4 is out of picture a lot of times. So, in this common situation Alcatraz is needed



You think you're strengthening your position, but actually just making it worse.

Here the facts: I have 91/45. (with 30% from Tavern)
I won #39, but lost 7 of 8 units.
I lost #40 (and it wasn't "almost won").

You may think I'm a bad fighter.

He's what we'll do.
I'll give you a chance to orchestrate a set up.
I'll post screen shots of 1st and 2nd wave. Then, you chose fighters and I'll click on auto battle.
You claim you barely lose units.
Go ahead, and win it with few units standing (it'd still be -5/-6 units, which still calls for Alcatraz).
If you lose, you'll need to admit that to fight later stages of L3 and on L4, you'd need some 100%+ on both offense and defense.

Do we have a deal?



Just words.
Once again, check out your neighborhood, how many players have L7 of both Pillar and Bridge? Or, just even Bridge alone.
Does it support your words anyhow?
Or do we come to conclusion that 90% of players didn't really want L7 prizes?
I hardly see even L6s around!

Oh, I think you're a terrible fighter if you click on auto. I guess that explains our difference of opinion. I don't auto, I manual fight everything. If I auto'd, I'd take horrible losses too, I'm sure. So just don't do it. Fight manually. If you do, you can do it very easily.

I would never admit those things, since I don't need them. How could I? Would you like me to lie? How could I possibly say you need +100/+100 to completely L3 or L4, when I complete it with less? I may have lost two or three units the whole GE this week, if that. If I hit auto though, I don't know what I'd lose. If you want to change it to "if you auto, you'd need x amount of units in L3 or L4", I'd simply say that could be true, because I have no experience with it.

You're wording the Pillar stuff in the wrong way. Many people decided to stop at L5, so they could go after other stuff instead of the L7 Pillar. But a lot of people have L7 on Z as well. You know, the SoK seduces a lot of people, even though they've released stuff far better than it (Pillar is one example) fairly recently. But I know a lot of people just follow blindly, and go for the SoK whenever it's available. I know a lot did on Z as well. But, there are L7 Pillars, and I have one, and another L1 I can place (it's not worth it), so I know it was not particularly difficult to get them to L7. But that's ALL I went after. No detours. It was a choice.

 

[DeletedUser34480]

He's the layout.

(just in case, I put it on Internet as well https ://prnt.sc/j8dabj)

 

[DeletedUser34480]

Oh, I think you're a terrible fighter if you click on auto. I guess that explains our difference of opinion. I don't auto, I manual fight everything. If I auto'd, I'd take horrible losses too, I'm sure.

No, I don't use auto-battle.
I actually believe that I can do about 20% better than machine.

Still, it not that huge of a difference.
If you lose just few units, OK, go ahead, just win it with couple units standing.
Machine algorithm is no worse than 100% (aka twice) of you, you can't claim something like that.

Many people decided to stop at L5, so they could go after other stuff instead of the L7 Pillar.

Right, a lot of people went for L5 and SoK instead of getting this extra fp from L7... while "virtually everyone" could get L7 itself.

 

[Ta 152H]

He's the layout.

(just in case, I put it on Internet as well https ://prnt.sc/j8dabj)

What are you thinking of using. I'm thinking 2 arty, 2 lights, four rogues. First turn, you make him come to you with his horses. Keep your Jaegar back, and take out his Howitzers with your artillery. You won't be able to kill them turn one, but you'll be able to turn 2. His artillery will bang at your rogues, so he'll do no damage. If you get artillery from the rogues, keep hitting his howitzers. Once they're gone, it's all over but the crying as your Jaegar will have no serious opposition at that point. His horses will be dead, Howies too, and his Jaegar will not be hard to get into the open and destroy. Plus, you'll take out his arty.

Second wave is even easier. His heavies are irrelevant, his horses easily killed by Jaegar, and his artillery will take a beating from yours. Four rogues will supply all the cushion against his attacks you need.

No, I don't use auto-battle.
I actually believe that I can do about 20% better than machine.

Still, it not that huge of a difference.
If you lose just few units, OK, go ahead, just win it with couple units standing.
Machine algorithm is no worse than 100% (aka twice) of you, you can't claim something like that.


Right, a lot of people went for L5 and SoK instead of getting this extra fp from L7... while "virtually everyone" could get L7 itself.

20%? You can do WAY better than that, particularly if he has rogues. You only need to see my city on Z to see I'm not making numbers up, and also to see how many battles I have, and also I can show you how many times I've completed L4. I have no goods buildings, so I'm not negotiating unless it makes me for a quest.

Also, it's age dependent. In IndA, you definitely need more attack than in IA or EMA, etc... But, you also don't need to be in IndA before you get more attack, so you can do them in lock step and make sure you can complete the next age before going up. I don't think I could complete IndA with 34/30 for example, at least not without significant losses. I'd want more for that, and I'd wait until I had it.

With regards to L7 Pillar, let's not get silly with the remarks OK? You could get two SoK for moving from L5 to L7. Two. Or two RH. Some people decided it was worth it, partially because they are conditioned to do so every time they see an SoK. I went for the Pillar, and not only got it, but exceeded it.

 

[DeletedUser29726]

No, I don't use auto-battle.
I actually believe that I can do about 20% better than machine.

Still, it not that huge of a difference.
If you lose just few units, OK, go ahead, just win it with couple units standing.
Machine algorithm is no worse than 100% (aka twice) of you, you can't claim something like that.

It really depends on the battle. Some the autobattle handles fine - many it does extremely dumb things that can be the difference between a wipe and a no loss victory even. Many people adjust their tactics to make up for autobattle's deficiency and then yes a "20% difference" might be a good approximation with the same army (usually rogue centric as one of the AI's biggest problems is it'll charge your units forward too far and let the defense hit first - rogues absorb that hit). But there's often a better army that autobattle just can't use right that on manual will win the fight with a much more comfortable margin.

At the same time, it's hard to fault people for autoing. There's many reasons for it (some are overwhelmed by the combat system, some are lazy, some don't have that much time to play, some are just bored because its the same encounters every week and they're done with all their figuring for them). And the best armies to auto with as mentioned above are very different from the best armies to manual

 

[DeletedUser34480]

TA152H, you are watering it down.

On L7 buildings: I hardly see them, I hardly see L4+. Neither I've seen a serious increase in SoKs. Feel free to stick to idea that "virtually anyone" can get L7. I see what's happening around, you're talking about some people in global chat.

On fighting, I don't want to get into dancing around. I'm saying you're way wrong about losses in battles.
Now, you declined an auto-battle option, on shaky grounds, in my opinion.
I have a stand-alone camera so I can show my screen. I am willing to create a Skype account, and follow your instructions step by step -- to prove my point.
You'd tell where to move, when to click.
How about that?

 

[Ta 152H]

TA152H, you are watering it down.

On L7 buildings: I hardly see them, I hardly see L4+. Neither I've seen a serious increase in SoKs. Feel free to stick to idea that "virtually anyone" can get L7. I see what's happening around, you're talking about some people in global chat.

On fighting, I don't want to get into dancing around. I'm saying you're way wrong about losses in battles.
Now, you declined an auto-battle option, on shaky grounds, in my opinion.
I have a stand-alone camera so I can show my screen. I am willing to create a Skype account, and follow your instructions step by step -- to prove my point.
You'd tell where to move, when to click.
How about that?

You've just discredited everything you've said about L7 Pillars by saying you hardly see an L4+. Either you're looking in the wrong places, or your server simply decided to go another way. Nothing else makes sense. L4 I could get in my sleep. I got 8 levels. I didn't use diamonds. I'm never particularly lucky, but I am focused. L4 hard to find? Something is wrong. People went for something else.

Watering what down? You aren't understanding what I've been saying, and that's OK. I'm successful, you're not. You want me to explain why you're not successful, and that's not as easy as it might seem, but I'm doing my best. I know you can be successful, but you're more interested in validating what you're doing than making a change that will help you. If you don't want to fix your problem, and instead just want to say I'm wrong, go with it. It doesn't interest me. Come to Z if you want, and I'll help you get going and you'll see I'm telling you the truth. You will learn something, I'm pretty sure, and I don't mean to sound arrogant. I'm just basing that on you believe what I'm telling you isn't true, when it is. And you can do it too.

Is that the battle you lost? I'm actually pretty interested in doing what you suggest, but I'm going to spending the night with my girlfriend tonight. Also keep in mind I haven't fought in IndA in a while, but I do think that will work. If not, we can see what didn't, and make quick changes. Even so, I don't think you'll have much trouble. If that's the battle you can't win though, yeah, I'll definitely work it out with you, because I love solving problems like that, and I'm convinced we can.

 

[DeletedUser34480]

OK, I'll count my neighborhood tonight, for Bridge levels.

No problem about evening -- I'm leaving myself for a concert right now.

As for battle, yes, that's the one I've lost. I'm not saying I can't win it at all, as there are random, unit choices, etc.
The point of discussion is "Alcatraz is not needed as hardly any troops lost down the road".
Let's see how you do it.

 

[Ta 152H]

OK, I'll count my neighborhood tonight, for Bridge levels.

No problem about evening -- I'm leaving myself for a concert right now.

As for battle, yes, that's the one I've lost. I'm not saying I can't win it at all, as there are random, unit choices, etc.
The point of discussion is "Alcatraz is not needed as hardly any troops lost down the road".
Let's see how you do it.

Yeah, of course, sometimes you win or lose depending on terrain. What units did you use to attack with? What are his defensive boosts?

At your age, I'd have more attack boosts than you do. I would recommend slowing down a little and getting your boosts to where they are a little better for your age. It's not one thing, it's about balance. I can't win in CE with 0% boosts, for example. So, it has to be viewed as a holistic approach, and part of my recommendation has been not wasting points on Traz that could be spent on other GBs that would help more.

 

[DeletedUser34480]

What is "his boosts"? It's encounter #40 in GE. Machine gave them 30% attack/defense bonus.

I'm not buying into "have more boosts" All your previous talk was about blazing thru all GE levels, hardly losing any units.

As for Alcatraz, to up my Aachen from L5 to L6 so to get a mere 3% bonus -- and to have Alcatraz, producing 5 units daily... guess what, it the same 320 fp.

PS: I've created a test Skype account. I'll go for a walk some time tomorrow.
Other than that, I have almost the whole day to share my screen, so you can beat a crap out of those AI dummies

 

[DeletedUser34480]

I have counted Bridges in my current neighborhood.

For the first 40 players, there are 3 (plus 3 who I believe could get them) L7, two L6, four L5.
Now, where the fun begins... there 9 L4 and lower Bridges And you know what, I don't see stuff they got while possibly sacrificing Bridge levels.
So, it's max of 8 L6-7.
Almost half of those top 40 accounts don't even Bridges... do I need to tell what we'd see if I check lower 32 accounts?

Welcome to the real world, Neo

 

[Snarko]

Pillar was 90%+ chance of getting lvl 7 if you did it properly. Bridge was much less. You're both mixing them up here and there but they had very different odds. You should have a lvl 7 pillar unless you were unlucky or went after something else.
You might not have a lvl 7 bridge even if you focused 100% on it. I did and got a lvl 7 on one server, lvl 5 on another.

Regarding the question of the thread, traz or not, this thread has persuaded me to get a traz (eventually) on one server. I can fight 63/64 encounters there but traz would enable me to autobattle more of them, saving me a lot of time. Time is the most important resource after all.

 

[Ta 152H]

What is "his boosts"? It's encounter #40 in GE. Machine gave them 30% attack/defense bonus.

I'm not buying into "have more boosts" All your previous talk was about blazing thru all GE levels, hardly losing any units.

As for Alcatraz, to up my Aachen from L5 to L6 so to get a mere 3% bonus -- and to have Alcatraz, producing 5 units daily... guess what, it the same 320 fp.

PS: I've created a test Skype account. I'll go for a walk some time tomorrow.
Other than that, I have almost the whole day to share my screen, so you can beat a crap out of those AI dummies

Yes, but one of the precepts of blazing through is having correct attack GBs, which I've mentioned many times. You're a little low for that age, I really think you should slow down a bit, and get up your boosts. If you're fighting several battles, and waves, that extra 3% could EASILY mean the difference of a few pieces. Much more than one piece a day Traz gives you. Not only can it lower damage, it's also a fact that dead guys don't hurt. So, jack them up a bit. It's subtle for each level, but it surely does help.

 

[Ta 152H]

Pillar was 90%+ chance of getting lvl 7 if you did it properly. Bridge was much less. You're both mixing them up here and there but they had very different odds. You should have a lvl 7 pillar unless you were unlucky or went after something else.
You might not have a lvl 7 bridge even if you focused 100% on it. I did and got a lvl 7 on one server, lvl 5 on another.

Regarding the question of the thread, traz or not, this thread has persuaded me to get a traz (eventually) on one server. I can fight 63/64 encounters there but traz would enable me to autobattle more of them, saving me a lot of time. Time is the most important resource after all.

I had no trouble getting not only the L7 of each, but also additional upgrades or L1 building. I had zero problem. People who didn't get L4 or L5, simply were going for other things. He can make up numbers, or even give real ones, but they aren't indicative of the difficulty in getting the pieces. If people got stuck at L6, I could accept that. L4? PLEASE.