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Election Law Changes

Mustapha00

Well-Known Member
We are roughly one year away from electing the leader of the Free World.
Our process for election those who (at least claim to) represent us is among the most tidy procedures in the world. We do not have proportional representation. We do not have multiple parties which rarely elect enough candidates to form governments without having to form coalitions with at least somewhat like-minded other office holders. And, of course, our transitions have, thus far, proven to be without violence, no matter how heated the contest was.
However, to paraphrase Winston Churchill, our electoral process is the worst possible, save for all the others.
What changes might be worth considering? I would toss out a few proposals to start a conversation:

1) Expand Election Day from one day to an entire weekend, consisting of at least 24 hours split between Friday, Saturday and Sunday. While the Constitution
(Article 1, Section 4, Clause 1) recognizes that the states have the authority to regulate elections- save for Senator- this suggestion would still give to the states the ability to decide for themselves what hours their various election sites are open, so long as the minimum hour requirement is met. One of the objections to the current system is restrictive voting hours and limited days; this would accomplish the goal of addressing both of those concerns.

2) Voter ID should be made a requirement of all national elections. To avoid conflicting with Article 4, what constitutes a valid ID should be left up to the states to decide for themselves. Voting is arguably the most important civic duty most of us will every perform, yet it is more difficult, in many states, to obtain over-the-counter cold medicines than it is to vote. I would strongly suggest a biometric ID card, possibly with the biometrics added to the current driver's licenses, and I would have zero problem with the Federal government paying for this, as ensuring voting accuracy is a proper duty for government. Such a card could also replace the current Social Security card or any other form of identification that conclusively proves that you are a United States citizen and eligible to vote in good standing.

3) Establish Regional Primaries. Break the country up into a number of geographic zones, possibly with similar Electoral College counts (though this would require significant gerrymandering), with each zone to vote on the same day or days. I would think six zones (Northeast, Southeast, North Central, South Central, Northwest and Southwest) would work best. Each zone has their vote on the last weekend of a particular month, the order of zones voting to rotate with each election. If the process began in January, you'd have your party's nominee known by July. You could still have party conventions of course. Nominees would then have from July to the first of November to make their cases to the electorate. Regionally primaries already exist, such as the so-called "SEC Primary" in my neck of the woods early next year, so there is legal precedent.

4) If you do not pay Federal Income Taxes, you do not get to vote (with limited exceptions). No one that does not have "skin in the game", as Joe Biden likes to say, should have any input in the process. You should not be able to vote yourself free stuff at the expense of others. The exceptions: anyone on SSI disability; disabled or retired military who left in good standing; retirees who live on tax-deferred income; retirees on Social Security; anyone who paid even $1 in Federal Income Taxes, even if, through some program such as AFDC or EITC, they received back from the government more than they paid in. Perhaps there are other reasonable exceptions, and I hope that some suggestions can be offered. Constitutionally, this suggestion is on solid ground, as the so-called 'right to vote' does, indeed, have limitations (such as certain ex-felons losing the 'right').

5) Term Limits for all Federally-elected (and I could be persuaded, appointed, as in judges) individuals. The Founders never intended that "politician" be a career choice. They envisioned an individual being elected, serving a term or two, and then returning home to pursue their real avocation. I wholeheartedly agree with that, and would thus recommend a limit of two six year terms for Senators and 6 two-year terms for representatives, with the President still limited to two four-year terms. Legal precedent has been established by limiting the President to eight years.
 

Mustapha00

Well-Known Member
Specifics?
Note that I do not advocate making voting mandatory. Every single one of my proposals has legal, Constitutional precedent. Please do some research on how voting is conducted in a true "police state"- North Korea would be a great place to start- and then come back and make your argument.
 

cbalto1927

Active Member
Specifics?
Note that I do not advocate making voting mandatory. Every single one of my proposals has legal, Constitutional precedent. Please do some research on how voting is conducted in a true "police state"- North Korea would be a great place to start- and then come back and make your argument.

I meant by the policies that you suggested such as voter ID, have to pay taxes in order to qualify to vote. biometric ID card, is another thing that a free world do not like (Invasion of privately). Right now all you need in order to vote is a place of residence. If homeless then the name of place that you stayed. If you don't have state ID then there's other forms of ID such as mailing address of where you live. AS for weekend voting, that's reasonable there. Some of the suggestions appeared to have good points but it very unlikely US will change their voting system.
 

Mustapha00

Well-Known Member
Photo ID laws are being enacted across the nation in response to instances of voter fraud. Such laws are being found consistently by courts at various levels to be Constitutional. As I said (or hope I did), it should be at least as difficult to cast a ballot as it is to buy cigarettes; too often, it isn't. And there is one party here in the US that benefits from illegally cast votes, so it constantly demagogues the issue.

Various other forms of ID have been deemed as being acceptable in various states, which is their right (states setting relevant election law) under the Constitution. But many of those forms of ID lack any sort of definitive association with the person presenting them- is there any way to prove the person holding a utility bill is really the person on the bill?- and so it is increasingly necessary to make the capability of voter fraud as difficult as possible. A biometric card will accomplish exactly that, and is a far better use of revenue than, say, supporting Planned Parenthood or the National Endowment for the Arts (or any of several hundred other programs).

Asking someone to prove they are who they claim to be in order to establish their 'right' to cast a ballot isn't establishing a police state. Having the police (actually, having the leaders themselves) determine who wins an election is a police state. Kim in North Korea wins with 99% of the vote. Castro in Cuba wins with 99% of the vote. Putin in Russia wins with similarly laughable margins. Those are police states.
 

DeletedUser

Point of fact: Voter fraud is actually EXCEEDINGLY rare. A 2006 study found that the rate of national fraud was .00000013 percent. The most likely people to be violating the law? They're not the poor unwashed masses. The last major case of this was the Wisconsin mess. The news (particularly Fox, which since this reads like one of their bullet point arguments I'm guessing you watch regularly), likes to report INVESTIGATIONS of fraud all the time. The truth is, there are very few prosecutions for fraud. Generally counting in the dozens and usually affecting only local races, in a nation of 320+ MILLION people. This is what you want to spend billions of dollars combating... something that rare. It's wrong, we should prosecute, but it is not some egregious problems of the great unwashed masses cheating the ballot box. We should hope ALL our problems were this rare. So no, this is not something that needs tons of legislation to combat. It absurd how this is blown out of proportion to the occurrence. And no, it's not really getting more common either.

As for the voter ID laws, they've been upheld AND deemed unconstitutional by a number of courts. It has been ruled a poll tax, where those ID's cost funds, and unallowable in states were access is not readily available. The way the laws are structure matters a great deal. The need for it though? None. Why? Because of the issue I addressed above. There really isn't any problem to combat. It would probably help to know that some officials, notably in Pennsylvania, are on record admitting that this was intended to suppress voter turnout among opposing constituencies, as those voters are more likely to have issues obtaining such credentials.

As to the rest of this malarky, most of it I won't bother with as it's opinion and there are enough holes in most of it for others to shoot through. However, I will say that you do not understand how many taxes people pay in addition to the federal income tax. Excise taxes, sales taxes, consumption taxes, property taxes, just to name a few. I calculate out all of my tax burden each year, including all those fees, charges, and adds from phone bills to my royalty revenues. Income tax is just one part of the pie I pay. You are not living on largess free from taxburden if you do not pay into the federal income tax. That is a completely specious argument to make, that some how because you pay in to ONE particular tax more than others, gives you some greater right to determine our governance.
 

DeletedUser13838

Point of fact: Voter fraud is actually EXCEEDINGLY rare. A 2006 study found that the rate of national fraud was .00000013 percent.

I'm assuming the number you posted is from voterfraudfacts.com? It represents less than 1 person so whoever wrote the piece didn't check their arithmetic.
 

DeletedUser

I'm assuming the number you posted is from voterfraudfacts.com? It represents less than 1 person so whoever wrote the piece didn't check their arithmetic.

No, that number is quoted in an ABC news article from 2006 summarizing the DOJ's study as presented to congress in the same year. The number was copied and pasted here.

See: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/voter-fraud-real-rare/story?id=17213376
"Out of the 197 million votes cast for federal candidates between 2002 and 2005, only 40 voters were indicted for voter fraud, according to a Department of Justice study outlined during a 2006 Congressional hearing. Only 26 of those cases, or about .00000013 percent of the votes cast, resulted in convictions or guilty pleas."

calculate 26 / 197,000,000, though it does look as if the journalist mistook a pair of decimal places in the calculation. As the hard calculation would return 0.000000132, which as a percentage would be 0.0000132%.
 

cbalto1927

Active Member
Based on the numbers provided above, i would vote against any electoral changes. Such legislation on any new laws would not be necessary.
 

DeletedUser13838

No, that number is quoted in an ABC news article from 2006 summarizing the DOJ's study as presented to congress in the same year. The number was copied and pasted here.

See: http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/OTUS/voter-fraud-real-rare/story?id=17213376
"Out of the 197 million votes cast for federal candidates between 2002 and 2005, only 40 voters were indicted for voter fraud, according to a Department of Justice study outlined during a 2006 Congressional hearing. Only 26 of those cases, or about .00000013 percent of the votes cast, resulted in convictions or guilty pleas."

calculate 26 / 197,000,000, though it does look as if the journalist mistook a pair of decimal places in the calculation. As the hard calculation would return 0.000000132, which as a percentage would be 0.0000132%.

So you're only counting convictions to determine the amount of election fraud? Does that mean if a crime is committed but no one is convicted then there was no crime? I'm not convinced that every instance of actual voter fraud winds up as a conviction. How is voter fraud even detected?
 

DeletedUser

Even if you include indictments the number only raises to 40 (as you quoted). Those indicted, but not convicted means there is insufficient evidence to prove the crime. Our juridical system is founded on the premise that innocent until PROVEN guilty. As for how it is detected, there are lots of ways, but the most common is the lawyers for each side challenging questionable votes. This happens a lot. Then there are provisional ballots, and all kinds of other controls in place, on top of voter verification roles which are compared to a variety of evidence to maintain their integrity. Several states recently tried to purge the rolls claiming a lot of fraudulent voters existed, but mostly made an embarrassment of themselves in making such a big stink out of a really minor issue. Point in case Florida, which found less than 10% of the anticipated problems, rendering 207 improper entries on the rolls, and no evidence that any of them were voting illegally mind you. See: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/floridas-voter-roll-purge-yields-few-results/ Even so again, we're talking hundreds in an issue where there are millions of votes cast. There is a need to maintain the controls over the system, but there is not a systemic problem... unless we're talking about the systemic problem of disenfranchisement.
 

Mustapha00

Well-Known Member
Point of fact: Voter fraud is actually EXCEEDINGLY rare. A 2006 study found that the rate of national fraud was .00000013 percent. The most likely people to be violating the law? They're not the poor unwashed masses. The last major case of this was the Wisconsin mess. The news (particularly Fox, which since this reads like one of their bullet point arguments I'm guessing you watch regularly), likes to report INVESTIGATIONS of fraud all the time. The truth is, there are very few prosecutions for fraud. Generally counting in the dozens and usually affecting only local races, in a nation of 320+ MILLION people. This is what you want to spend billions of dollars combating... something that rare. It's wrong, we should prosecute, but it is not some egregious problems of the great unwashed masses cheating the ballot box. We should hope ALL our problems were this rare. So no, this is not something that needs tons of legislation to combat. It absurd how this is blown out of proportion to the occurrence. And no, it's not really getting more common either.

There are a pretty fair number of laws meant to deal with exceedingly rare violations. That does not mean that we do not investigate when warranted (except for the Obama-Holder DoJ, which did not follow the law- remember the Black Panthers committing blatant voter intimidation which was captured on video? Yet, despite incontrovertible evidence that a crime was committed, no investigation beyond a wink-and-a-nudge was conducted. why do you think that was the case?).

http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/2015/pdf/VoterFraudCases-Merged-3-2.pdf

A list of some 300 cases of voter fraud dating back to 2007. It's not quite as rare as the MSM makes it out to be.

As for the voter ID laws, they've been upheld AND deemed unconstitutional by a number of courts. It has been ruled a poll tax, where those ID's cost funds, and unallowable in states were access is not readily available. The way the laws are structure matters a great deal. The need for it though? None. Why? Because of the issue I addressed above. There really isn't any problem to combat. It would probably help to know that some officials, notably in Pennsylvania, are on record admitting that this was intended to suppress voter turnout among opposing constituencies, as those voters are more likely to have issues obtaining such credentials.

As we have clearly established that voter fraud is not as rare as you think it is, the rest of your argument here is meaningless.
I will say that, in pretty much all states which have instituted voter ID laws, the states not only provide such id free of charge to the petitioner, but they have created mobile units which travel to various localities with plenty of advance notice and have the equipment on board to issue- again, completely free of charge, voter ID cards.
And I would point to various internet sites which have very comprehensive lists of things that cannot be accomplished without a valid photo ID (OK...at least not legally performed), including cashing a check, opening a bank account, buying alcohol, buying cigarettes. buying certain over-the-counter cold medicines and literally dozens of others. If it so, so, SO difficult for these flks to obtain a valid photo ID, then how are they treating their colds?

As to the rest of this malarky, most of it I won't bother with as it's opinion and there are enough holes in most of it for others to shoot through. However, I will say that you do not understand how many taxes people pay in addition to the federal income tax. Excise taxes, sales taxes, consumption taxes, property taxes, just to name a few. I calculate out all of my tax burden each year, including all those fees, charges, and adds from phone bills to my royalty revenues. Income tax is just one part of the pie I pay. You are not living on largess free from taxburden if you do not pay into the federal income tax. That is a completely specious argument to make, that some how because you pay in to ONE particular tax more than others, gives you some greater right to determine our governance.

Other taxes are utterly irrelevant. If one does not pay Federal income taxes, one does not have any "skin in the game". Everyone should have to pay at least $1 to help fund the government which provides, with varying degrees of competence, so many services to its people. I completely understand about various forms of taxation, having had the pleasure to have paid them for about 40 years.
I am not at all surprised to learn that you see no problem with people voting themselves 'free goodies' at the expense of others rather than having to take some degree of personal responsibility for running their own lives. At some point, you will learn the very hard truth of Lady Thatcher's observation that the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. At $20 trillion in debt- and several times that in unfunded liabilities- one has to wonder how close we are to that point.
 

DeletedUser13838

Even if you include indictments the number only raises to 40 (as you quoted). Those indicted, but not convicted means there is insufficient evidence to prove the crime. Our juridical system is founded on the premise that innocent until PROVEN guilty. As for how it is detected, there are lots of ways, but the most common is the lawyers for each side challenging questionable votes. This happens a lot. Then there are provisional ballots, and all kinds of other controls in place, on top of voter verification roles which are compared to a variety of evidence to maintain their integrity. Several states recently tried to purge the rolls claiming a lot of fraudulent voters existed, but mostly made an embarrassment of themselves in making such a big stink out of a really minor issue. Point in case Florida, which found less than 10% of the anticipated problems, rendering 207 improper entries on the rolls, and no evidence that any of them were voting illegally mind you. See: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/floridas-voter-roll-purge-yields-few-results/ Even so again, we're talking hundreds in an issue where there are millions of votes cast. There is a need to maintain the controls over the system, but there is not a systemic problem... unless we're talking about the systemic problem of disenfranchisement.

The only fact presented is that there are 40 people who were indicted of voter fraud. There is no mechanism in place to actually detect if voter fraud exists. At least with homocide you know there is a crime even if the murderer isn't found. There is no telltale signature of voter fraud (unless you ask the loser of a close election I suppose). So a count of indictments is not very compelling. I don't know what your point is about the "premise of innocence" argument.
 

DeletedUser

The only fact presented is that there are 40 people who were indicted of voter fraud. There is no mechanism in place to actually detect if voter fraud exists. At least with homocide you know there is a crime even if the murderer isn't found. There is no telltale signature of voter fraud (unless you ask the loser of a close election I suppose). So a count of indictments is not very compelling. I don't know what your point is about the "premise of innocence" argument.

You know there's been a homicide? Really how? You assume you found a body. If there's no body how do you know there is a homicide? There's a missing person, did anyone even report it? Okay, lets say you did find a body, how do you know it was murder? There are limits to medical forensics, if you think that we can magically determine cause of death in all cases you've been watching too much CSI/L&O/NCIS. You can't. You have at best, probable suspicion. Then you must do work to determine if it was in fact murder. Even if you do determine YOU think it was murder, then you must then convince a JURY that it was. Not as easy as you think. Nice strawman, moving along.
 

DeletedUser

There are a pretty fair number of laws meant to deal with exceedingly rare violations. That does not mean that we do not investigate when warranted (except for the Obama-Holder DoJ, which did not follow the law- remember the Black Panthers committing blatant voter intimidation which was captured on video? Yet, despite incontrovertible evidence that a crime was committed, no investigation beyond a wink-and-a-nudge was conducted. why do you think that was the case?).

http://thf_media.s3.amazonaws.com/2015/pdf/VoterFraudCases-Merged-3-2.pdf

A list of some 300 cases of voter fraud dating back to 2007. It's not quite as rare as the MSM makes it out to be.



As we have clearly established that voter fraud is not as rare as you think it is, the rest of your argument here is meaningless.
I will say that, in pretty much all states which have instituted voter ID laws, the states not only provide such id free of charge to the petitioner, but they have created mobile units which travel to various localities with plenty of advance notice and have the equipment on board to issue- again, completely free of charge, voter ID cards.
And I would point to various internet sites which have very comprehensive lists of things that cannot be accomplished without a valid photo ID (OK...at least not legally performed), including cashing a check, opening a bank account, buying alcohol, buying cigarettes. buying certain over-the-counter cold medicines and literally dozens of others. If it so, so, SO difficult for these flks to obtain a valid photo ID, then how are they treating their colds?



Other taxes are utterly irrelevant. If one does not pay Federal income taxes, one does not have any "skin in the game". Everyone should have to pay at least $1 to help fund the government which provides, with varying degrees of competence, so many services to its people. I completely understand about various forms of taxation, having had the pleasure to have paid them for about 40 years.
I am not at all surprised to learn that you see no problem with people voting themselves 'free goodies' at the expense of others rather than having to take some degree of personal responsibility for running their own lives. At some point, you will learn the very hard truth of Lady Thatcher's observation that the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money. At $20 trillion in debt- and several times that in unfunded liabilities- one has to wonder how close we are to that point.

I could waste a lot of time explaining this to you again, and the numerous errors in most of your assertions (including the idea that all states make it available, please see Alabama which does not have mobile units or even have a place in each county) but the fact that you think the only federal or relevant tax is the Federal Income Tax, tells me you have little to no idea how taxes, government, or anything else related to this conversation works despite your assertion that you've paid them for 40 years. Its funny how many people complain about government money and taxes but never take 5 minutes to understand how fund accounting even works, let alone how the government is funded. People love to talk about the debt like they understand what it really is or how it functions. Everyone just thinks they can do a kitchen table sit-down, balance their own checkbook, and come up with brilliant solutions to very complex and difficult problems, or in your case, come up with a solution for a problem that is so remote relative to other issues that are FAR more pressing, that you're willing to rewrite the constitution, spend billions, and marginalize numerous voters. A couple hundred voters in a population of hundreds of millions is not a systemic problem needing constitutional, statutory, and cultural changes to rectify.

I will address your liabilities question, unfunded is different from UNDERfunded. There is a great deal of difference and those amounts, which are showing up on financial statements are based on actuarial calculations which are shown to have almost NO validity after 2 years, and I have yet to see a single one which contains accurate predictions 5, 10, or 20 years out, let alone to the point where things are truly collapsing. I could get into the long term trend analysis but I really don't want to spend my evening off typing up about 20 pages discussing the ins and outs of the various pension and retirement systems of the federal government and the associated state and local government systems.
 

DeletedUser13838

You know there's been a homicide? Really how? You assume you found a body. If there's no body how do you know there is a homicide? There's a missing person, did anyone even report it? Okay, lets say you did find a body, how do you know it was murder? There are limits to medical forensics, if you think that we can magically determine cause of death in all cases you've been watching too much CSI/L&O/NCIS. You can't. You have at best, probable suspicion. Then you must do work to determine if it was in fact murder. Even if you do determine YOU think it was murder, then you must then convince a JURY that it was. Not as easy as you think. Nice strawman, moving along.

Multiple stab/gunshot wounds doesn't require a significant leap to a crime of some sort. If you want to believe that every crime is solved and results in a conviction well that's your prerogative.
 

Mustapha00

Well-Known Member
I could waste a lot of time explaining this to you again, and the numerous errors in most of your assertions (including the idea that all states make it available, please see Alabama which does not have mobile units or even have a place in each county) but the fact that you think the only federal or relevant tax is the Federal Income Tax, tells me you have little to no idea how taxes, government, or anything else related to this conversation works despite your assertion that you've paid them for 40 years. Its funny how many people complain about government money and taxes but never take 5 minutes to understand how fund accounting even works, let alone how the government is funded. People love to talk about the debt like they understand what it really is or how it functions. Everyone just thinks they can do a kitchen table sit-down, balance their own checkbook, and come up with brilliant solutions to very complex and difficult problems, or in your case, come up with a solution for a problem that is so remote relative to other issues that are FAR more pressing, that you're willing to rewrite the constitution, spend billions, and marginalize numerous voters. A couple hundred voters in a population of hundreds of millions is not a systemic problem needing constitutional, statutory, and cultural changes to rectify.

Interesting that you happen to bring up Alabama, because I happen to live there.
And, as is pretty consistently the case, you are wrong again. Alabama does, indeed, have mobile voter ID vehicles:
http://whnt.com/2015/10/01/secretar...oting-despite-driver-license-office-closures/
Obviously, it is you, not I, that has no idea what they are talking about.

I provided a list of over 300 voter fraud convictions. Not merely charges of voter fraud but convictions of individuals who were accused of committing fraud. So you are- again- wrong to assert that the problem is "remote".

In 2000, less than 1000 votes decided an election, out of well over 100 million votes cast. And that was a national election. One can only guess at how many state and local elections are decided by tens of votes. If you want to take a chance that your vote is cancelled out by fraud, fine. But the franchise means a good bit more to many others like myself.

I will address your liabilities question, unfunded is different from UNDERfunded. There is a great deal of difference and those amounts, which are showing up on financial statements are based on actuarial calculations which are shown to have almost NO validity after 2 years, and I have yet to see a single one which contains accurate predictions 5, 10, or 20 years out, let alone to the point where things are truly collapsing. I could get into the long term trend analysis but I really don't want to spend my evening off typing up about 20 pages discussing the ins and outs of the various pension and retirement systems of the federal government and the associated state and local government systems.

And yet many place complete faith in climate change predictions 25, 50 or even 100 years into the future....

But your point about conflation of terms on my part is a valid one. In the end, though, whether the total amount is under- or unfunded really is beside the point; we have fiscal liabilities roughly 10 times our annual GDP. While it is true that an asteroid could hit the earth tomorrow, wiping out all of mankind- and our debts- I'm going way out on a limb and say that the statistical probability of that happening isn't all that high. The bills >WILL< come due, and it is going to be up to those just entering the work force to pay the lion's share. all the while wondering why their parents and grandparents allowed is to get into the fiscal mess we're in.
 

DeletedUser13838

I will address your liabilities question, unfunded is different from UNDERfunded. There is a great deal of difference and those amounts, which are showing up on financial statements are based on actuarial calculations which are shown to have almost NO validity after 2 years, and I have yet to see a single one which contains accurate predictions 5, 10, or 20 years out, let alone to the point where things are truly collapsing.
As an actuary I feel compelled to tell you this comment is completely wrong. I'll leave the proof as an exercise for the reader.
 
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