[Guide] "Fair Trade" completely unfair. True fair trade calculator

Discussion in 'Guides' started by Goblin The Great King, Apr 9, 2018.

  1. Goblin The Great King

    Goblin The Great King New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    If you want to know trading basis you can read here: Goods buildings explained

    At the moment most of players call 1:1 in the same age and 2:1 to one era dirrefence "fair".

    What I call fair? Fair is when you can generate the same resource rather than trading it to your guildmates with the same efficiency. So fair includes no profit but only cost of manufacturing. Simple example of true fair is trading Wine (3x3) for Lumber (3x3). But when we start trading Wine (3x3) to stone (4x4) in the 1:1 proportion - we simply use our guildmates or we are being used by them because we can produse more wine than stone and in the end get more resources than our partner - that's a good example of unfair trade.

    As for cross-era trades. Fair traid is calculated by comparing the amount of squares you need in your city to produce 1 good. For example to produce 1 ebony in Iron Age you'll need:
    1) 48 minutes
    2) Ebony Woodworks (4x4) - 16 tiles
    3) 3.8 tiles of Bucher to produce the requred 40 supply in 48 minutes. (160 per hour for 4x3 building). Formula is = 3.8/(4*3)/(60*48)*160 = 40
    4) 12.6 tiles of Populations building for production. Cottage gives 73 population per 4 squares. 74/4*12.6 = 230 requred for production
    5) 1.1 tile of Population building to supply 3.8 tiles of Butcher from 3rd bullet.

    TOTAL SPACE required to produce 1 Ebony in Iron Age in 48 minutes is = 16 + 3.8 + 12.6 + 1.1 = 33.5 tiles.

    Let's do the same calculation for Ebony but in Erly Middle Ages (EMA). To produce 1 Ebony in EMA in 48 minutes you'll need:
    1) 48 minutes
    2) Ebony Woodworks (4x4) - 16 tiles
    3) 2.1 tiles of Shoemaker to produce 40 supply in 48 minutes. (210 per hour for 3x3 building) Formula is = 2.1/(3*3)/(60*48)*210 = 40
    4) 8.3 tiles of Population building for production. Clapboard house gives 111 population per 4 squares. 111/4*8.3 = 230 required for production
    5) 0.7 tiles of Population building to supply 2.1 tiles of Shoemaker from 3rd bullet.

    TOTAL SPACE required to produce 1 Ebony in Erly Middle Ages (EMA) in 48 minutes is = 16 + 2.1 + 8.3+ 0.7 = 27,1 tiles

    *we don't count gold cost because it's being produced with the population buildings as a bypass product.

    Now let's do the same calculation but for producing Honey in EMA:
    1) 48 minutes
    2) Beekeeper (3x3) - 9 tiles
    3) 4.3 tiles of shoemaker
    4) 12.3 tiles of population building for production building
    5) 1.3 population building tiles to sustain Shoemakers

    TOTAL SPACE required to produce 1 Honey in Erly Middle Ages (EMA) in 48 minutes is = 9 + 4.3 + 12.3 + 1.3 = 26,9 tile

    This example means that when trading 1 honey for 2 Ebony from the guildmate the person gets an 200% profit. Which is extremely far from term "fair".

    To cover the current system to all guilds are persons who want to make and sustain a TRUE FAIR trading system I've developed a automated calculator which shows the ratio when you type in what do you want to trade and for what. Also I've developed a matrix to those who don't want to use the document.

    Calculator can be found via this link:

    LINK TO THE TRUE FAIR TRADE CALCULATOR

    You can alternatively use rates from spoilers.

    Let's change this un"fair" system into a real true fair together!

    My other works:
    PRO - Arc swap group automatic equal donations calculator
    Great Building Donation Strategy Calculator (Optimal FP to GB donation now automated!)

    Bronze Age (BA) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedStoneLumberMarbleDyeWineLimestoneEbonyIronClothJewelryCopperGraniteAlabasterGoldHoneyBrickRopeSaltDried HerbsGlass
    Stone1.01.31.31.31.30.70.70.90.80.80.70.60.70.70.80.60.80.60.60.6
    Lumber0.81.01.01.01.00.50.50.70.60.60.50.40.50.50.50.40.50.40.40.4
    Marble0.81.01.01.01.00.50.50.70.60.60.50.40.50.50.50.40.50.40.40.4
    Dye0.81.01.01.01.00.50.50.70.60.60.50.40.50.50.50.40.50.40.40.4
    Wine0.81.01.01.01.00.50.50.70.60.60.50.40.50.50.50.40.50.40.40.4
    Iron Age (IA) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedLimestoneEbonyIronClothJewelryCopperGraniteAlabasterGoldHoneyBrickRopeSaltDried HerbsGlassBasaltBrassSilkTalc PowderGunpowder
    Limestone1.01.01.31.11.10.90.80.90.91.00.80.90.80.80.80.60.60.70.70.7
    Ebony1.01.01.31.11.10.90.80.90.91.00.80.90.80.80.80.60.60.70.70.7
    Iron0.80.81.00.90.90.70.60.70.70.80.50.70.50.50.50.40.40.50.50.5
    Cloth0.90.91.11.01.00.80.70.80.80.80.60.80.60.60.60.50.50.60.60.6
    Jewelry0.90.91.11.01.00.80.70.80.80.80.60.80.60.60.60.50.50.60.60.6
    Erly Middle Ages (EMA) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedCopperGraniteAlabasterGoldHoneyBrickRopeSaltDried HerbsGlassBasaltBrassSilkTalc PowderGunpowderPaperCoffeeWirePorcelainTar
    Copper1.00.91.01.01.10.81.00.80.80.80.60.60.70.70.70.60.60.60.50.5
    Granite1.11.01.11.11.30.91.10.90.90.90.70.70.80.80.80.80.70.70.60.6
    Alabaster1.00.91.01.01.10.81.00.80.80.80.60.60.70.70.70.60.60.60.50.5
    Gold1.00.91.01.01.10.81.00.80.80.80.60.60.70.70.70.60.60.60.50.5
    Honey0.90.80.90.91.00.70.80.70.70.70.50.50.60.60.60.50.50.50.40.4
    High Middle Ages (HMA) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedBrickRopeSaltDried HerbsGlassBasaltBrassSilkTalc PowderGunpowderPaperCoffeeWirePorcelainTarRubberCokeTextilesWhale OilFertilizer
    Brick1.01.21.01.01.00.70.70.80.80.80.80.70.70.60.60.50.40.50.50.4
    Rope0.81.00.80.80.80.50.50.70.70.70.60.50.50.40.40.40.30.40.40.3
    Salt1.01.21.01.01.00.70.70.80.80.80.80.70.70.60.60.50.40.50.50.4
    Dried Herbs1.01.21.01.01.00.70.70.80.80.80.80.70.70.60.60.50.40.50.50.4
    Glass1.01.21.01.01.00.70.70.80.80.80.80.70.70.60.60.50.40.50.50.4
    Late Middle Ages (LMA) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedBasaltBrassSilkTalc PowderGunpowderPaperCoffeeWirePorcelainTarRubberCokeTextilesWhale OilFertilizerAsbestosGasolineMachine PartsTinplateExplosives
    Basalt1.01.01.21.21.21.11.01.00.80.90.70.60.80.80.60.50.50.50.60.6
    Brass1.01.01.21.21.21.11.01.00.80.90.70.60.80.80.60.50.50.50.60.6
    Silk0.80.81.01.01.00.90.80.80.70.70.60.50.60.60.50.40.40.40.50.4
    Talc Powder0.80.81.01.01.00.90.80.80.70.70.60.50.60.60.50.40.40.40.50.4
    Gunpowder0.80.81.01.01.00.90.80.80.70.70.60.50.60.60.50.40.40.40.50.4
    Colonial Age (CA) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedPaperCoffeeWirePorcelainTarRubberCokeTextilesWhale OilFertilizerAsbestosGasolineMachine PartsTinplateExplosivesFerroconcreteConvenience FoodFlavorantsPackagingLuxury Materials
    Paper1.00.90.90.80.80.60.60.70.70.60.40.40.40.50.50.30.30.30.30.3
    Coffee1.11.01.00.80.80.70.60.70.70.60.50.50.50.60.50.30.30.30.30.3
    Wire1.11.01.00.80.80.70.60.70.70.60.50.50.50.60.50.30.30.30.30.3
    Porcelain1.31.21.21.01.00.80.80.90.90.80.60.60.60.70.70.40.50.40.40.4
    Tar1.31.21.21.01.00.80.70.90.90.70.60.60.60.70.70.40.40.40.40.4
    Industrial Age (InA) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedRubberCokeTextilesWhale OilFertilizerAsbestosGasolineMachine PartsTinplateExplosivesFerroconcreteConvenience FoodFlavorantsPackagingLuxury MaterialsRenewable ResourcesSteelSemiconductorsIndustrial FiltersGenome Data
    Rubber1.00.91.11.10.90.70.70.70.80.80.50.50.50.50.50.40.40.40.40.4
    Coke1.11.01.21.21.00.80.80.80.90.90.50.60.50.60.50.50.40.50.50.5
    Textiles0.90.81.01.00.80.70.60.70.80.70.40.50.40.50.40.40.30.40.40.4
    Whale Oil0.90.81.01.00.80.70.60.70.80.70.40.50.40.50.40.40.30.40.40.4
    Fertilizer1.11.01.21.21.00.80.80.80.90.90.50.60.50.60.50.50.40.50.50.5
    Proggressive Era (PE) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedAsbestosGasolineMachine PartsTinplateExplosivesFerroconcreteConvenience FoodFlavorantsPackagingLuxury MaterialsRenewable ResourcesSteelSemiconductorsIndustrial FiltersGenome DataElectromagnetsGasPlasticsRobotsBionics Data
    Asbestos1.00.91.01.11.10.70.70.70.70.70.60.50.60.60.60.50.50.50.50.5
    Gasoline1.11.01.11.21.20.70.80.70.80.70.60.60.60.60.60.50.50.50.50.5
    Machine Parts1.00.91.01.11.10.70.70.70.70.60.60.50.60.60.60.50.50.50.40.5
    Tinplate0.90.80.91.01.00.60.60.60.60.60.50.40.50.50.50.40.40.40.40.4
    Explosives0.90.90.91.01.00.60.70.60.60.60.50.50.50.50.50.50.40.40.40.4
    Modern Era (ME) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedFerroconcreteConvenience FoodFlavorantsPackagingLuxury MaterialsRenewable ResourcesSteelSemiconductorsIndustrial FiltersGenome DataElectromagnetsGasPlasticsRobotsBionics DataTranslucent ConcreteSmart MaterialsPapercretePreservativesNutrition Research
    Ferroconcrete1.01.11.01.11.00.80.80.90.90.90.80.70.70.70.70.60.60.70.60.7
    Convenience Food0.91.00.91.00.90.80.70.80.80.80.70.70.60.60.60.60.50.60.60.7
    Flavorants1.01.11.01.11.00.80.80.90.90.90.80.70.70.70.70.60.60.70.60.7
    Packaging0.91.00.91.00.90.80.70.80.80.80.70.70.70.60.60.60.50.60.60.7
    Luxury Materials1.01.11.01.11.00.90.80.90.90.90.80.80.70.70.70.60.60.70.60.7
    Postmodern Era (PmE) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedRenewable ResourcesSteelSemiconductorsIndustrial FiltersGenome DataElectromagnetsGasPlasticsRobotsBionics DataTranslucent ConcreteSmart MaterialsPapercretePreservativesNutrition ResearchBiogeochemical DataPurified WaterAlgaeSuperconductorsNanoparticles
    Renewable Resources1.00.91.11.11.10.90.90.80.80.80.70.70.80.70.80.60.60.60.60.6
    Steel1.11.01.11.11.11.00.90.90.90.90.80.70.80.80.90.70.60.60.70.6
    Semiconductors0.90.91.01.01.00.80.80.80.80.80.70.60.70.70.80.60.50.50.60.5
    Industrial Filters1.00.91.01.01.00.90.80.80.80.80.70.60.70.70.80.60.50.50.60.5
    Genome Data1.00.91.01.01.00.90.80.80.80.80.70.60.70.70.80.60.50.50.60.5
    Contemporary Era (CE) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedElectromagnetsGasPlasticsRobotsBionics DataTranslucent ConcreteSmart MaterialsPapercretePreservativesNutrition ResearchBiogeochemical DataPurified WaterAlgaeSuperconductorsNanoparticlesNanowireTransester GasA.I. DataPaper BatteriesBioplastics
    Electromagnets1.01.00.90.90.90.80.70.80.80.90.60.60.60.70.60.50.60.50.60.5
    Gas1.01.01.00.90.90.80.80.90.81.00.70.70.70.70.70.60.60.60.60.6
    Plastics1.11.11.01.01.00.90.80.90.91.00.70.70.70.80.70.60.60.60.70.6
    Robots1.11.11.01.01.00.90.81.00.91.00.70.70.70.80.70.60.70.60.70.6
    Bionics Data1.11.11.01.01.00.90.80.90.91.00.70.70.70.80.70.60.60.60.70.6
    Tomorrow (TE) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedTranslucent ConcreteSmart MaterialsPapercretePreservativesNutrition ResearchBiogeochemical DataPurified WaterAlgaeSuperconductorsNanoparticlesNanowireTransester GasA.I. DataPaper BatteriesBioplasticsPearlsArtificial ScalesCoralsBiolightPlankton
    Translucent Concrete1.00.91.11.01.10.80.80.80.90.80.70.70.70.80.70.60.60.60.60.7
    Smart Materials1.11.01.21.11.30.90.90.91.00.90.80.80.70.80.70.70.70.70.60.8
    Papercrete0.90.81.00.91.10.80.70.70.80.70.60.70.60.70.60.60.60.60.50.6
    Preservatives1.00.91.11.01.10.80.80.80.90.80.70.70.70.80.70.60.60.60.60.7
    Nutrition Research0.90.80.90.91.00.70.70.70.80.70.60.60.60.70.60.50.50.50.50.6
    The Future (TF) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedBiogeochemical DataPurified WaterAlgaeSuperconductorsNanoparticlesNanowireTransester GasA.I. DataPaper BatteriesBioplasticsPearlsArtificial ScalesCoralsBiolightPlankton
    Biogeochemical Data1.01.00.91.10.90.80.90.80.90.80.80.80.80.70.9
    Purified Water1.01.01.01.11.00.91.00.81.00.90.80.80.80.70.9
    Algae1.11.01.01.11.00.90.90.81.00.90.80.80.80.70.9
    Superconductors0.90.90.91.00.90.80.80.70.90.80.70.70.70.70.8
    Nanoparticles1.11.01.01.11.00.90.90.81.00.90.80.80.80.70.9
    Arctic Future (AF) goods true fair trade rates
    Offer\NeedNanowireTransester GasA.I. DataPaper BatteriesBioplasticsPearlsArtificial ScalesCoralsBiolightPlankton
    Nanowire1.01.11.01.11.00.90.90.90.81.0
    Transester Gas0.91.00.91.00.90.90.90.90.81.0
    A.I. Data1.11.11.01.21.00.91.01.00.91.1
    Paper Batteries0.91.00.91.00.90.80.80.80.70.9
    Bioplastics1.01.11.01.11.00.90.90.90.81.0
    Oceanic Future (OF) goods true fair trade rates(untested data based on wiki)
    Offer\NeedPearlsArtificial ScalesCoralsBiolightPlankton
    Pearls1.01.01.00.91.1
    Artificial Scales1.01.01.00.91.1
    Corals1.01.01.00.91.1
    Biolight1.11.11.11.01.2
    Plankton1.00.90.90.81.0
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  2. hjh102

    hjh102 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2013
    NOTE - please remember that Inno does not require trades to be "fair" by this or any other definition and all players can choose for themselves (or your guild can choose for you) how trades are structured. The above is Goblin's opinion.
     
  3. TrinkOne

    TrinkOne Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2018
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Southern California
    Worlds:
    Noarsil
    Good point hjh. My guild trades all goods @ 2:1 but different trade rates are also permitted and accepted by some members. I believe fair is determined by how bad you need something, when you need it. :rolleyes:
     
  4. plinker

    plinker Forum Moderator Forum Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Gender:
    Male
    Worlds:
    Dunarsund, Walstrand
    Some players post that their trade is unfair, but exists to help a guildmate of friend. Some have merit in this case.
     
    TrinkOne and Graviton like this.
  5. sloppyjoeslayer

    sloppyjoeslayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    I think probably a lot of players when they first get into the game go over this sort of thing, I know I did when I first started. It's a natural question that arises so the appreciation I have for such comes from that it's probably normally coming from people who are interested in the game and trying to work things out. However, fairness can of course be a relative thing, what may seem unfair to one person may be completely acceptable and fair to another.

    Yes, clearly 50 BA goods for 100 FE goods is an unequal trade in terms of what it takes to produce each but once you go down the road of trying to fit fairness into trade in general and take into account all the other factors aside from building size, coins and supplies like, goods also come from Great Buildings, Plundering, Guild Expedition, Continent Map, Special Buildings, Quest Rewards, fp/goods trade, not to mention what it takes in terms of time, fp's goods coins supplies to get to higher ages in order to produce those higher age goods, then you'll soon see the rabbit hole you've gone down and fairness just aint a standard you can form out of it. So any standard, method or whatever you apply merely amounts to being arbitrary.

    Many guilds adopt the "fair" trade standard, myself I'm for free trade but have no problem working with the so called "fair" trade standard. Just wish people would stop using that word fair when all it is is just a standard applied for trading.
     
  6. TrinkOne

    TrinkOne Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2018
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Southern California
    Worlds:
    Noarsil
    We have to call it something @sloppyjoeslayer ...lol :D
     
  7. sloppyjoeslayer

    sloppyjoeslayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    lol, well, I just call it the ratio trade standard because when "fair" trade is described that is what people use to describe it, 2:1 up 1:1 across 1:2 down.
     
  8. TrinkOne

    TrinkOne Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2018
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Southern California
    Worlds:
    Noarsil
    You draft the proposal and I'll vote yes pm it. ;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2018
  9. sloppyjoeslayer

    sloppyjoeslayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    I probably did at some point in my FoE forum life, I'm done with that now here. I tell ya though, IG did us no favor by adding a "Fair trade" checkbox to mobile, ugh.
     
  10. TrinkOne

    TrinkOne Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2018
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Southern California
    Worlds:
    Noarsil
    I haven't owned a cell phone since I retired (9 yrs), and never owned one you could game on., so I cant feel your pain. I doubt the proposal would pass anyways, like I mentioned before, "fair" is far to ambigous a word, and as such, is tossed around willy-nilly here and there. In the end it doesn't matter what it's called, only what you believe.
     
  11. sloppyjoeslayer

    sloppyjoeslayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    I don't play on mobile either just saying it only reinforces the concept among the player base which just makes this whole conversation more tedious and complex than need be so I actually think it matters to that extent but mostly now I tend to ignore the conversation about it, just thought it worthy to chime in as the OP looks to have put more work into the thought than most anyway.
     
    TrinkOne likes this.
  12. aswartout5

    aswartout5 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2018
    Imo you can't expect a 1:1 trade up even if the space of the buildings are the same. You are not factoring in the leveling process to get to the higher level. Sure, 1 level up isn't always equal to twice the goods but to say an IA 12 square building is equal to a LMA 12 square just isn't right. Within a guild, that's one thing; outside the guild, never going to happen as a standard.
     
  13. Snarko

    Snarko Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2018
    This. I don't have goods buildings. What are my goods worth? How do you calculate that?

    There's no such thing as fair trade because there are more factors than anyone will bother taking into account. Even a calculator taking into account as many factors as this one completely miss the point for those of us who produce goods by other means.
     
    InfamousChan and sloppyjoeslayer like this.
  14. Goblin The Great King

    Goblin The Great King New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    The base for the price is the tiles for goods building. Because even if you don't produce them from goods building lots of people do. It's your personal situation of having GBs and cetera to produce the goods. Other people might not have it. You can see that for the same era rates are not different enough to make person with GBs generating goods uncorfortable.
     
  15. sloppyjoeslayer

    sloppyjoeslayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    Having trouble letting go? You'll learn, time will do that for ya. All you're doing is applying an arbitrary measure in an effort to ascertain what one good is worth relative to another. Even if it were true that many players obtained goods the same way, which you can't know, it would still be an arbitrary point, sure it may be true at the start of the game but the more you play and get into other ways of obtaining goods then that goes by the wayside anyway. Goods buildings are only one way of getting goods, you chose that one factor to the exclusion of all others.
     
    Graviton, Algona and InfamousChan like this.
  16. Goblin The Great King

    Goblin The Great King New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    And you chose another one factor to the exclusion of all others. So basically your whole answer is the same for fair and tile based true fair systems.

    I'm not stating that tiles based true fair should be used always. This statement is nowhere to be found in the original post. It's impossible on the open market with too many factors but it's much more "fair" system in the undestranding of dictionary "fair" term than the current standard.
     
  17. sloppyjoeslayer

    sloppyjoeslayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2016
    Gender:
    Male
    No, I'm not proposing a "fair" trade system at all, so there are no factors to consider. You are the one trying to fit that word into trade and I'm trying to save you a lot of grief because it just don't work. But you go ahead on though, I can't stop ya.
     
  18. Goblin The Great King

    Goblin The Great King New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2018
    I agree with your statement that there should be no market restrictions at all. I believe that they are present as some kind of couter-cheating mechanism. Have no other idea why developers put them into a such well balanced economical system.

    As for the inguild/friend trade - tile based true fair is much better than enything else out there. It eliminates the requirement to think what goods building to build. You just build any and get exactly what other people are getting for 1 tile of your city. It also eliminates the deficit of the biggest productions building resources out there. So you can obtain them faster.
     
  19. Ozyman Tremble Weaklings

    Ozyman Tremble Weaklings Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2017
    Worlds:
    East Nagash, Fel Dranghyr, Walstrand, Xyr, Yorkton
    Maybe if you don't enjoy having your trades picked up it works well, but if you want your trades to actually get taken you should go 1:1 within the same age.
     
    Graviton and Algona like this.
  20. Algona

    Algona Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2015
    Your system is fairly well done. As a theoretical exercise, it's fun to play with. I'd suggest the next step in the exercise a consideration of the effects in the Goods for FPs market with an emphasis on GB Goods purchasing.

    I shan't debate whether it's 'true fair'; I don't think it is, but that's just me.

    Practically it won't fly. Tens of thousands of players to adopt a system that requires either darned good memory (my mind is already cluttered) or constant use of a calculator (what's your ISP gonna say when 100K players hit your calculator a day?) or get INNO to adopt this (good luck with that) before you can call this 'much better'.

    Given time is the most important Resource in the game and Goods are a distant fourth, I don;t see any way that I want to switch to a Goods trade system that requires a calculator for a Resource that I collect and trade hundreds per day. That doesn't strike me as 'much better'.

    No thanks.
     

Top