Feedback for the new Guild Expedition Trials!

[Brutusone]

As a returning player and starting all over, I think the New GE is not worth the effort. Its cost to the guild is too high, and the rewards for the individual player are not worth the time and effort you need to put into it. I can only get through the first trial, and my individual costs are greater than the rewards I received.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

As a returning player and starting all over, I think the New GE is not worth the effort. Its cost to the guild is too high, and the rewards for the individual player are not worth the time and effort you need to put into it. I can only get through the first trial, and my individual costs are greater than the rewards I received.

No one is required to play GE. Your Guild may require it, but belonging to such a Guild is optional.

I agree though, that the first levels are too hard for beginning players.

 

[McBluefire]

Here is a bit of actual cost increase from Slaystation for GE.
GE three weeks ago was 94K to unlock. This Tuesday it was 340K, an average of 3.6x more across all ages. Only a handful of our members have decided to chase Trial 6+.

When I was arguing against this in beta I didn't realize the goal was to put GE on par with GBG weekly (~720K) costs. Folks kept saying it was going to be a trivial cost increase. Doing two "GBGs" every week isn't trivial for any guild. While our treasury is still growing I can't imagine that the other guilds who were stating they couldn't build in GBG will be doing better in a few more weeks.

Going with 9.2x for Trial 27 completed (T30 unlocked) as noted by @xivarmy SS could end up with the following weekly costs:
868K GE
720K GBG

Yeah....that makes sense for all the gameplay and rewards that come out of GE.

 

[xivarmy]

Here is a bit of actual cost increase from Slaystation for GE.
GE three weeks ago was 94K to unlock. This Tuesday it was 340K, an average of 3.6x more across all ages. Only a handful of our members have decided to chase Trial 6+.

When I was arguing against this in beta I didn't realize the goal was to put GE on par with GBG weekly (~720K) costs. Folks kept saying it was going to be a trivial cost increase. Doing two "GBGs" every week isn't trivial for any guild. While our treasury is still growing I can't imagine that the other guilds who were stating they couldn't build in GBG will be doing better in a few more weeks.

Going with 9.2x for Trial 27 completed (T30 unlocked) as noted by @xivarmy SS could end up with the following weekly costs:
868K GE
720K GBG

Yeah....that makes sense for all the gameplay and rewards that come out of GE.

Bare in mind that GE costs scale with guild size, GBG costs do not (i.e. 100k goods to build your HQ in diamond no matter your guild size).

The guilds saying they can't build in GBG are most likely small and thus are not spending as much as you are in GE.

Alternatively when they say they "can't" build they might just be telling you that because they don't *want to* build It's really hard for me to imagine guilds that legitimately can't build when even the tiny guilds I'm in are able to build *some*.

GE also continues to scale with era, where GBG does not. An Iron Age member costs 1/7th the amount of a SASH member on the same trial. A VF member half. This trend will also likely lower the impact of the cost increase for more casual guilds compared to top guilds.

Finally, I doubt many people will go past trial 5 (i'm not on my main - for reasons completely separate from costs, i have essentially limitless goods my age; there's just no point to higher trials for me). At which point it appears the cost will be 3.8* what it used to be. Up to ~6k goods a week in SASH (~1200 ea). That's a bit over half my arc. But then there's also my observatory and the real avalanche of goods my crystal cascade that i can spam BG charged finishes on for ~30k t-goods a day. Much like back in the day when the story for people with an Arc was "I can pay for 10 people's GE just collecting". The new costs are essentially a consequence of power creep.

And if they *do* go past trial 5, they can probably afford to help with the treasury draw they create, if they don't already do so automatically. Casual players won't be unlocking trial 30 for a very long time, if they even want to.

 

[WillyTwoShoes]

@xivarmy

GBG costs do scale with league level however.

Open join guilds struggle not only with the era goods of their players - lower age goods are particularly hard to keep stocked because lower age players can't produce as many goods as higher age players. (it's simply a function of how much city space is available in each age)

There is no distinction in the random amount of goods required for any GBG build which often results in a smaller open guild having to pay a 100K Home Base at diamond league and coming from Iron Age Cloth or Iron treasury goods which wipes out their treasury goods for and entire season.

Making the problem of sufficient treasury goods even more challenging for an open guild is the lack of player interaction in the goods/trade market. With the way a player moves up in age on the open market having access to trades for needed lower age guild goods is difficult.
-
My questions here are:
(If a player is in a 30 member guild with a mix of eras and 29 players choose level 6 and 1 player chooses level 8.)

Do the costs of GE guild goods go up for everyone in the guild?
How does it figure guild goods if all players haven't entered GE, selected a level, and started yet?
Are the 1 players higher goods contributions age specific?
-

 

[xivarmy]

My questions here are:
(If a player is in a 30 member guild with a mix of eras and 29 players choose level 6 and 1 player chooses level 8.)

Do the costs of GE guild goods go up for everyone in the guild?
How does it figure guild goods if all players haven't entered GE, selected a level, and started yet?
Are the 1 players higher goods contributions age specific?
-

the guild will pay 1 * 4.7 of the old cost for the difficulty 8 player (after they've completed it once), specific to their era (difficulty 2 previous, 3 4 and 5 current age)
and 29 * 4.1 of the old cost for the difficulty 6 players (after they've completed it once), specific to their eras.

 

[WillyTwoShoes]

the guild will pay 1 * 4.7 of the old cost for the difficulty 8 player (after they've completed it once), specific to their era (difficulty 2 previous, 3 4 and 5 current age)
and 29 * 4.1 of the old cost for the difficulty 6 players (after they've completed it once), specific to their eras.

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but that is a bit much for me to follow let alone explain to fellow guilders. My head is still exploding from the suggestion that (in terms of treasury goods) GE costs are comparable to GBG costs.
-

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

lower age goods are particularly hard to keep stocked because lower age players can't produce as many goods as higher age players.

That ia only partially true. Lower age payer also seem to have no clue that they really do need to make goods for the Treasury in quantities equal to how many they cost the Guild.
Nearly every Guild hands a partial free ride to low Era players by not forcing those players to cover all their own GE GBG costs.
Most lower Era player have no clue. Getting them to see that and actually try to get up to speed covering their own Guild costs is a hard task.
Yeah it is hard for them (mainly to realize they need to do more!)that is why the need to step up and cover their own behinds for Treasury costs.
I was lucky and finally figured that out after playing for a year having others carry my sorry arse.
The average cost per player a few years ago for GbG was 2,300 Goods per day per player in Guild. That was before the current GbG buildings, before the home base building existed in GbG. Now it must be well over 3500 per day per Guildie. just for GbG.
So all you newbies who thing Obs is a waste of time.. or that at level 20 you are covered... ahhh think again.
Lucky Arc is a Treasury Goods producer.

 

[xivarmy]

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but that is a bit much for me to follow let alone explain to fellow guilders. My head is still exploding from the suggestion that (in terms of treasury goods) GE costs are comparable to GBG costs.
-

GE and GBG costs are only going to be comparable in a very large guild with high trial players. GBG will mostly cost more still.

I don't know what was hard to follow in that. The details of precisely how much each cost? The essence is each person's portion of the cost is only from their own progress.

Some examples:



Trial is the highest trial the individual has ever completed. I included numbers for:

trial 1 (recommended for just doing GE for rivals or because the guild demands it; also the default cost for someone who's never completed all 80 in any difficulty)
trial 5 (recommended for just doing GE for forgotten temple)
trial 26 (high trial representative of the point where you're maxed out on building fragments and only gain goods thereafter)

You'll note the goods required continues to be highly dependent on age:

That higher age units player in indy who wants to do high trials just because? Only costs about as much as a trial 5 SASH player.

The "as much as GBG" cost being spouted relies on all of the following:

- Large Guild (small diamond guilds will cost way more in GBG because it doesn't scale the costs on size)
- In High Eras (an indy trial 26 player only costs about the same amount of goods as a SASH trial 5 player)
- All doing High Trials (One high trial individual might cost almost as much as 3 trial 5 individuals, but if they can handle 9000%+ boost they *should* have treasury contributions that cover the added cost too)

And if that's all true, i'm sorry but you should be able to afford it

 

[PianoFil]

There is an added factor that should be looked at though in the cost ratio. If it is worth it or not of cost for a guild to play GE compared to the over glorified trash that you mainly get from it and your invested time into running it. IMO Inno made it not worth the cost and invested time for the crap you get out of it anymore.

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

The most valuable bit one can get from GE is the Forgotten Temple. 20% boost for almost all (not GB Fps) Forge Points
That can be a lot of Forge Points!!
Saving several of them up to use in conjunction with a bunch of Finish all can be amazing,
Everything else does not matter much

 

[Meat Butcher]

The most valuable bit one can get from GE is the Forgotten Temple. 20% boost for almost all (not GB Fps) Forge Points
That can be a lot of Forge Points!!
Saving several of them up to use in conjunction with a bunch of Finish all can be amazing,
Everything else does not matter much

Quoted for Truth !

 

[WillyTwoShoes]

I think those Silver Serpent Statue upgrades sure look tasty to me.

 

[Dursland]

I'm happy the Forgotten Temple is easier to get for farms with lower levels of blue boosts.

Until Trials came out I only went to end of GE4 in those worlds.

 

[Mor-Rioghain]

I'm not trying to be snarky here, but that is a bit much for me to follow let alone explain to fellow guilders. My head is still exploding from the suggestion that (in terms of treasury goods) GE costs are comparable to GBG costs.
-

I'm with you on this one. I'm going goggle-eyed trying to figure out how to apply this to my own guild with 60-ish members ranging in era from IA to SASH who've chosen who knows what levels. The idea of tracking the spending from week to week to get a fix on it make me want to run screaming for the hills and never come back (at least not to figure out GE costs, that's for sure).

We have a very forward-thinking guild in terms of TBs and the folks are utterly awesome about keeping their interest and focus alive and well on continuing to level them up but we all know that the number of goods produced on a level of a TB is peanuts compared to just about any EB that provides treasury goods. Getting them to do that is, well, rude, to put a finer point on it. How do you tell some mostly OGs that they need to do more or spend more on an event? (Probably our biggest "bylaw" is "Play your own way.)" So, it's not how we do things. We do ask for donations to the treasury when they're needed and they're equally as awesome about that as they are about raising TBs. So, what does a guild us do when we see our treasury going down? How do we answer this need without having a formula to work from? This wouldn't be a "hot" topic if there weren't one heckuva lot of guilds out there with a similar make up and habits like ours.

I run the treasury numbers and put together or most needed goods lists regularly for our donation thread. I can see the defecits but I don't know the exact 'where or why' but there's no doubt in my mind that it's the new GE coupled with some added expenses in BG due to the Elite seasons where we're building more expensive buildings. We don't run a monster treasury but it's been very stable for years and during my year as the unofficial Treasury Tsarina (as Bossman #1 likes to call me), I've worked to create pars for our plethora of eras and increased many of them to top-guild standards. I guess what I'm getting at is with all of the number-crunching I see happening on this topic as of late, has anyone come closer to an actual formula like we had with the old GE? If so, where could I find it? If it doesn't exist (which I suspect it doesn't), is whomever's working on it willing to take on a helper (me)? I don't do the high-end math and charts and tables frazzle my nerves but I'm still willing to do what I can to help pull my weight. Maybe it will take a team of people to bring new data, track expenditures, run sims, or whatever it takes to create a workable formula. DM me if you can help out. Really appreciate it!!

Add on: My predictions on new/young cities vs my established/SASH city were absolutely on target as for expense and doability. SASH City: Last week I chose level 5 and finished 80 w/no trouble. I barely noticed a difference from usual play. EMA/Beta City: I chose level 1 and decided to do 80 (never tried it before) because of the Rival and finished but my negotiation expenses were ridiculous but I was pleasantly surprised at how hearty my little dudes did during fights. This last round I chose level 4 for Beta. It was beyond a disaster. I couldn't even finish L1. I got to encounter 15 and no matter what little dudes I chose, they all died. There's a really bad word for what happened with the negotiations I abandoned as I should have done about 3 or 4 times before I did (and I said it several times while it was happening too, but I was alone, so that's okay). I was not a happy camper. Last round for SASH: L8 and a few more frays around the edges but again, no real problems. I chose to replace units on the 80th encounter because even though I was alone I would have been too embarrassed to be creamed at the last moment. I should have checked with my mates because for whatever reason they all chose L11 and I was at 8 and I'm not sure why they chose to go so much higher when the week before we were all on the same page. We're the top fighters in the guild and generally wind up being the top ones in GE and BG. <shrug> Go figure. Maybe I wouldn't have been so unfrazzled if I'd done L11. I'll have to give it a whirl and see for myself. Conclusion: Beta City will never play above L3 I'm thinking and it might even be L2. Don't know but I'm going to find out. That's a pretty sorry state because it's got some nice attk/def numbers for a baby city.

Too bad; I can certainly see why people are so upset and ready to quit if they're new to the game or choose to play in a smaller city! Constantly telling people to 'level up,' 'grow stronger,' 'increase your attack and especially your attacker's defense' isn't the answer. We've all heard it said before -- the game should be challenging and even hard but it shouldn't be impossible for a new player to handle. What incentive is there in staying and learning more if you can't do more than the one free level you get?

 

[Ebeondi Asi]

The lower GE levels need to be made much easier. So anyone can finish all 80 on level 1 even if they just started playing.
Instead of making new players give up.

 

[e2m2]

The lower GE levels need to be made much easier. So anyone can finish all 80 on level 1 even if they just started playing.
Instead of making new players give up.

It was never possible to finish all 80 encounters for someone that just started playing. I think it's OK for new players to slowly build up their army boosts and goods stock so that they can finish more and more encounters as time goes on, eventually reaching 80.

 

[Johnny B. Goode]

It was never possible to finish all 80 encounters for someone that just started playing. I think it's OK for new players to slowly build up their army boosts and goods stock so that they can finish more and more encounters as time goes on, eventually reaching 80.

No, it wasn't, but they clearly stated that Trial 3 would be the equivalent of the previous iteration of GE. Trials 1 & 2 should then logically be easier than GE was before and they're not.

 

[xivarmy]

No, it wasn't, but they clearly stated that Trial 3 would be the equivalent of the previous iteration of GE. Trials 1 & 2 should then logically be easier than GE was before and they're not.

Trial 1 100% is. It tops out at 200% boost. Iron age old-GE5 topped out at 727%. Any other age was higher. Now they're all the same. Yes you need both red and blue now, but you also can get both and more of them from single event buildings. Or QI buildings. Trial 1 might be the 1 good thing about the changes.

It got moved to trial 5 being "the equivalent", and it also more or less is, at the high end, in SASH. It is an increase in difficulty in other ages. And for anyone who wasn't doing GE5. Their motivation for this is rather clear - they don't want GE to be a reason that you don't age up. If only there was more good about new-GE, people might be willing to accept it.

 

[honey55]

I can't see any reason to even try higher trials. I plan to do trial 9 until an event or rivals. Is there a trial that rewards extra turns?. I think trial 1 did when i did it in H world. I don't plan to do ge there. Just tried it out and could do all 80 on auto. I want to do one with extra turns should i need to rush ge though it would be preferble too get the FT frags, i don't actually need them at this point