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Flags are outmoded

SLange

The flag was used on the battlefield. Battlefields are a thing of the past due to modern weapons. Flags tend to be divisive and challenging tools rather than a rallying call today. If flags became a thing of the past maybe everyone would calm down and appreciate more what it is to be human rather than belonging to a tribe?
 

DeletedUser3052

Even with modern weapons, there will always be battlefields. They can be anywhere in the world or even in space. Flags are often used in morale of the troops that fought within as well as "winner" spots when a side captures/seizes a location; they place their flag within, standing and waving on high to mark their victory/territory.
 

DeletedUser3422

A flag, like a gun is a tool which can be used for plunder or protection from plunder. To blame tools for human action is to ignore human nature.

“Now since man is naturally inclined to avoid pain- and since labor is pain in itself- it follows that men will resort to plunder whenever plunder is easier than work. History shows this quite clearly. And under these conditions, neither religion nor morality can stop it.
When, then, does plunder stop? It stops when it becomes more painful and more dangerous than labor.
It is evident, then, that the proper purpose of law is to use the power of its collective force to stop this fatal tendency to plunder instead of to work. All the measures of the law should protect property and punish plunder.
People are beginning to realize that the apparatus of government is costly. But what they do not know is that the burden falls inevitably on them.”– Frederic Bastiat
 

SLange

Even with modern weapons, there will always be battlefields. They can be anywhere in the world or even in space. Flags are often used in morale of the troops that fought within as well as "winner" spots when a side captures/seizes a location; they place their flag within, standing and waving on high to mark their victory/territory.
Indeed, or there could be the scenario where troops stand on an area claimed or won, as you put it, and surrounded by carnage/death and destruction with no flag or symbol to use. Perhaps they would look around and think well that was pretty pointless and a waste of lives, what did we do that for? We don't even have a flag.
 

Emperor of Sorrows

If flags became a thing of the past maybe everyone would calm down and appreciate more what it is to be human rather than belonging to a tribe?
Substitute "flags" with "Religion" and this statement would be more relevant. IMHO
 
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SLange

As relevant, religious states have flags too. The Vatican being one example. Any symbolic representation of a tribe on a flag whips up fervour for the cause, however harmful it may be. The 23rd April was St. George's Day in England represented by a red cross on a white background. Well known for its adoption by the racist party BNP (British National Party). St George was from Pakistan originally. The Irony.
 
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Sharpshooter

Flags are symbols. Symbols will never be outmoded, until the thing they represent are.
 

SLange

It appears to me that the more modern our lifestyles, technologically driven with all mod cons, and the more complex societal divisions, the more antiquated our behaviour in worshipping flags and nationality. I find it funny and a little odd when the far reaches of the world are relatively easy to access and we mingle much more than was ever possible before. Seems we need to be put in little boxes labelled with a flag that supposedly defines us, compares us or worse, implies a certain belief system is necessary to belong. It obviously doesn't, as we all vary in our behaviours, likes, dislikes and beliefs. How much better if we decided a flag is not necessary to represent who we are, where we live and whether we belong. The Country has a name and I have a passport. No flag to represent or suggest any kind of Imperialism required.
 

DeletedUser3

Flags are symptoms of cultures and societal mindsets. What's the point in removing the cough if the cancer still remains?
 

SLange

Not heard of that homily before, I take your point but mindsets should always be challenged in order for society to progress, expand ideas to keep up with scientific advances. Don't you think?
 

DeletedUser34

Flags are symbols. Symbols will never be outmoded, until the thing they represent are.
I agree. There is a pride in flying a flag. Take a Texan for example......

I rest my case....Try and take a Texan's flag (state or national) and watch dust fly) Here, people are so proud of their flag, they decorate their houses with it....
 

DeletedUser3422

I agree. There is a pride in flying a flag. Take a Texan for example......

I rest my case....Try and take a Texan's flag (state or national) and watch dust fly) Here, people are so proud of their flag, they decorate their houses with it....

Texas has been on my mind lately. While reading about the school stabbings in Texas I thought to myself, what happened to the Texas I once knew? Texans once believed there are fates worse than death, running away from a knife wielding psycho would be too shameful. A short time later some volunteer firefighters died protecting their community at a fertilizer plant, this is the Texas I knew.
Every community has a flag yet each community acts differently. Look at how we deal with disasters, some communities steal from each other and beg the government for help while in others it all comes down to neighbors helping neighbors.
Unfortunately for Texas they are getting other states trash. People who have ruined their communities blamed others, moved to Texas and continue to hold on to the same community destroying concepts.
 

Sharpshooter

Texas has been on my mind lately. While reading about the school stabbings in Texas I thought to myself, what happened to the Texas I once knew? Texans once believed there are fates worse than death, running away from a knife wielding psycho would be too shameful. A short time later some volunteer firefighters died protecting their community at a fertilizer plant, this is the Texas I knew.
Every community has a flag yet each community acts differently. Look at how we deal with disasters, some communities steal from each other and beg the government for help while in others it all comes down to neighbors helping neighbors.
Unfortunately for Texas they are getting other states trash. People who have ruined their communities blamed others, moved to Texas and continue to hold on to the same community destroying concepts.
I would simply remind you that though Texans share the same state flag, proudly, they too, like any other group of people from the beginning of time, have bravery and cowardice, selflessness and selfishness amongst their midst. Always have and always will.

To say that Texas is collecting other state's trash is disingenuous. There's plenty of homegrown trash coming of out of that state as well.

Texas has been on my mind as of late because of the West, Texas fertilizer plant explosion. An explosion cause in magnitude in part by lax regulations and illegal storage of Ammonia Nitrate at levels far exceeding levels that required inspection or possession. It was this act of skirting federal safety regulations that made the catastrophe that much more violent and destructive. So, salute the flag all you want, do it proudly, but just remember that there's plenty of trash in your state to go around from various sources. I won't even bother getting into the creationists in your state wanting that trash taught in the state's education system.

People that live in glass state's shouldn't throw stones.
 

DeletedUser34

I would simply remind you that though Texans share the same state flag, proudly, they too, like any other group of people from the beginning of time, have bravery and cowardice, selflessness and selfishness amongst their midst. Always have and always will.

To say that Texas is collecting other state's trash is disingenuous. There's plenty of homegrown trash coming of out of that state as well.
I will agree here.............I would lay our crime increase on other factors other than "trash" from other states. More notably, I'd say our crime increased due to A) gang related causes B) illegal immigrants C) society degeneration as a whole. But that is just my opinion. I personally take more exception with the crap you are spewing below:
has been on my mind as of late because of the West, Texas fertilizer plant explosion. An explosion cause in magnitude in part by lax regulations and illegal storage of Ammonia Nitrate at levels far exceeding levels that required inspection or possession. It was this act of skirting federal safety regulations that made the catastrophe that much more violent and destructive.
I'd like documentation of most of your allegations, because near as I can tell none of this is confirmed as the CAUSE of the explosion...jus' sayin'. What I find to be the largest problem with what happened in West, to much Bureaucracy. To many hands in the pot...to many people under budget and unable to perform their jobs to the letter of the law. A bit like the Child protective service agencies for example. Most of the balls were dropped on a federal level.....hmmmmm wonder why! Truth is, you are squeaking out your corn hole because as of this moment, not a soul knows what happened and why down there....cork the squeaker please...it is offensive to us Texans. Considering how much industry we have here, to say that one explosion makes our flag useless is quite....idiotic at best.
, salute the flag all you want, do it proudly, but just remember that there's plenty of trash in your state to go around from various sources. I won't even bother getting into the creationists in your state wanting that trash taught in the state's education system.

People that live in glass state's shouldn't throw stones.
Why you gotta dump on religion. Really? And we can throw stones. We look at our flag to mean much more than just cloth. We found our identity so important that when we entered the union, we can fly our flag of equal height as the Stars and Stripes. We are not perfect, but we have a high opinion of ourselves and our freedoms....and that is born out by proudly waving our flags. ALL of our flags. Including (and sadly) our collegiate colors! Now back to my point...here the Texas flag is a common and acceptable decor in many homes, kitchens, baths, pools, decks, yards, etc etc.....(plates, glasses, tables, cushions, pictures, etc etc)
 

SLange

I have a theory that flag worship is borne out of fear rather than pride. A people fearful of strangers, of outsiders, of change would be more likely to adhere to flag worship using it as a means of identifying the group to which they feel they belong by accident of birth. The familiar reassures and demonstrates that they belong together and the flag provides a cultural identity, however spurious. The more a people feel challenged or threatened the more important the symbol becomes. The violence of reaction verbal or otherwise is not as a result of pride. If it were pride alone the group would rise above it. No, it shows fear is the underlying cause of flag waving. An unsettled feeling that if it wasn't for the flag how would we, as a group identify each other or feel that we belong. Ultimately total distrust of anyone who does not hold the flag in the same high esteem. I find that ridiculous.
 
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Sharpshooter

I will agree here.............I would lay our crime increase on other factors other than "trash" from other states. More notably, I'd say our crime increased due to A) gang related causes B) illegal immigrants C) society degeneration as a whole. But that is just my opinion. I personally take more exception with the crap you are spewing below:
I can't speak to those crime stats, but that's a far cry from the 'trash from other states' argument you were attempting to put forth earlier.

I'd like documentation of most of your allegations, because near as I can tell none of this is confirmed as the CAUSE of the explosion...jus' sayin'. What I find to be the largest problem with what happened in West, to much Bureaucracy. To many hands in the pot...to many people under budget and unable to perform their jobs to the letter of the law. A bit like the Child protective service agencies for example. Most of the balls were dropped on a federal level.....hmmmmm wonder why! Truth is, you are squeaking out your corn hole because as of this moment, not a soul knows what happened and why down there....cork the squeaker please...it is offensive to us Texans. Considering how much industry we have here, to say that one explosion makes our flag useless is quite....idiotic at best.
My allegations? You mean the facts?

Texas fertilizer company didn't heed disclosure rules before blast

(Reuters) - The fertilizer plant that exploded on Wednesday, obliterating part of a small Texas town and killing at least 14 people, had last year been storing 1,350 times the amount of ammonium nitrate that would normally trigger safety oversight by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS).

Yet a person familiar with DHS operations said the company that owns the plant, West Fertilizer, did not tell the agency about the potentially explosive fertilizer as it is required to do, leaving one of the principal regulators of ammonium nitrate - which can also be used in bomb making - unaware of any danger there.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/04/20/us-usa-explosion-regulation-idUSBRE93J09N20130420
The problem here, is not that there was too much bureaucracy, it's that the attitudes of business owners such as these plant owners who try to limit oversight of their business put ordinary people at risk. And it's not just this particular plant...look at Wall Street companies and the mortgage crisis, that essentially left tens of thousands virtually homeless...many in anti-bureaucracy states like Arizona and Texas. And what's idiotic is to suggest that I asserted a plant explosion made the Texas or any flag useless.


Why you gotta dump on religion. Really? And we can throw stones. We look at our flag to mean much more than just cloth. We found our identity so important that when we entered the union, we can fly our flag of equal height as the Stars and Stripes. We are not perfect, but we have a high opinion of ourselves and our freedoms....and that is born out by proudly waving our flags. ALL of our flags. Including (and sadly) our collegiate colors! Now back to my point...here the Texas flag is a common and acceptable decor in many homes, kitchens, baths, pools, decks, yards, etc etc.....(plates, glasses, tables, cushions, pictures, etc etc)
I'm only asserting what's factually true. And 'Creationism' is what's trying to be forced on public school students there, even though there's absolutely no sane basis for it 'truthiness' in a science class. It's a disservice to the students of your state to have time taken away from actual science lessons to make room for disproven stories. If people want to practice a personal religion, then all power to them. But, forcing it on the school system seems.....hmm....tyrannical? Yeah, that word fits ironically.

And all power to Texans and their flag waving, wearing, and accessorizing ways whatsoever. I'm simply suggesting you have a little perspective to the things you were espousing earlier.
 
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DeletedUser34

Sharpshooter...
For starters, I never and would never blame Texas's problems on the "trash" of other states....so try again.
And secondly, after this comment about West, Texas, if you want to continue on with this discussion start a new thread after all, it has nothing to do with "flags".

I can also site an article about the plants history:
Now, on that note, if we have regulatory guidelines, laws and people to oversee them, why did they not follow through. The fact that it was a fertilizer plant should have been enough, and according to the law, WAS enough to warrant federal oversight....and yet, federal government dropped the ball. Again, this is not a case of just the plant being neglectful, but also the Federal government. Which was my point in the first place. But in order to side with your point, I'd like to have some evidence that the factory purposely failed to report to the federal government. The fact is, they didn't check a box, and the fact that they didn't check a box should have been a red flag for the regulatory agencies. Why didn't they say "hey!"?

Now going back on topic, Flags are a means of unity. That will NEVER be outdated. Maybe a better example would be sports or gangs? In the case of sports because well it is no secret I bleed orange an blue, I wear my colors often, proudly, and as much as possible on my 5'6 inch frame. I have my car decorated with orange and blue and I hang my HUGE flag outside my door every fall. Other swamp natives honk, wave, nod, and acknowledge my "flags" to show unity and support. Flags will always be a means of communication, unification and pride, and that will NEVER be outdated, out of style, or useless. To think that flags have served their purpose is just short sighted in my opinion. I am a proud American, and I treat the stars and stripes with the utmost respect, as it is a symbol of what I believe in. I am a proud Texan, and same thing applies. You'd be hard pressed to find a patriot who is willing to give up their symbol of our nation simply because a few group of people have lost national pride. For those people....go drink with the Dixie Chicks...after all, after their comments about America, the population who use to buy their CD's suddenly stopped. Imagine that.

OHHHHH: I forgot your attempt to bring a religious debate onto the scene......For one, I happen to think Creationism and Science go together fine. So if they want to teach both, more power to them. As to perspective, I have tons. I am probably more centered than any bleeding heart liberal around. So, Mr. Sharp, might I suggest you join me in the center and stop force feeding your liberal agenda on me on the forum? I don't buckle and I don't cave, and if I can rationalize the Iraq war, you are a gnat on my spectrum.....
 
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Sharpshooter

Sharpshooter...
For starters, I never and would never blame Texas's problems on the "trash" of other states....so try again.
And secondly, after this comment about West, Texas, if you want to continue on with this discussion start a new thread after all, it has nothing to do with "flags".

I can also site an article about the plants history:
Now, on that note, if we have regulatory guidelines, laws and people to oversee them, why did they not follow through. The fact that it was a fertilizer plant should have been enough, and according to the law, WAS enough to warrant federal oversight....and yet, federal government dropped the ball. Again, this is not a case of just the plant being neglectful, but also the Federal government. Which was my point in the first place. But in order to side with your point, I'd like to have some evidence that the factory purposely failed to report to the federal government. The fact is, they didn't check a box, and the fact that they didn't check a box should have been a red flag for the regulatory agencies. Why didn't they say "hey!"?

Now going back on topic, Flags are a means of unity. That will NEVER be outdated. Maybe a better example would be sports or gangs? In the case of sports because well it is no secret I bleed orange an blue, I wear my colors often, proudly, and as much as possible on my 5'6 inch frame. I have my car decorated with orange and blue and I hang my HUGE flag outside my door every fall. Other swamp natives honk, wave, nod, and acknowledge my "flags" to show unity and support. Flags will always be a means of communication, unification and pride, and that will NEVER be outdated, out of style, or useless. To think that flags have served their purpose is just short sighted in my opinion. I am a proud American, and I treat the stars and stripes with the utmost respect, as it is a symbol of what I believe in. I am a proud Texan, and same thing applies. You'd be hard pressed to find a patriot who is willing to give up their symbol of our nation simply because a few group of people have lost national pride. For those people....go drink with the Dixie Chicks...after all, after their comments about America, the population who use to buy their CD's suddenly stopped. Imagine that.

OHHHHH: I forgot your attempt to bring a religious debate onto the scene......For one, I happen to think Creationism and Science go together fine. So if they want to teach both, more power to them. As to perspective, I have tons. I am probably more centered than any bleeding heart liberal around. So, Mr. Sharp, might I suggest you join me in the center and stop force feeding your liberal agenda on me on the forum? I don't buckle and I don't cave, and if I can rationalize the Iraq war, you are a gnat on my spectrum.....

You're correct. The plant discussion should be moved to another thread on that particular topic. I will do so. Please join me there and we can discuss it further.

And if we have time, and you're willing to discuss other topics, we'll create new threads on them as well, such as Creationism vs Science.