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[Guide] Forum Etiquette

RaveWolf

Active Member
Post #438:
Again, I appologise that I'm not Perfect, and I appologise for being on this Forum where I clearly am unwelcome and do not belong.

I read that as you saying this forum is horrible.

Thanks... It simply implies as stated, and is exactly how I felt at the time by the amount of backlash I got for sharing my thoughts, and I still stand by it.
If nothing more, it simply proves everything this thread is about... I'm sure there are many more that feel the same or have simply just left the forum or even the game itself... If it weren't for my Guild, I would have been gone a long time ago.
 

RaveWolf

Active Member
This is how I view all of this topic. People don't like being told that their ideas are bad, people don't like being told that the position they are in is due to their own errors, and people when confronted with those tend to get defensive and lash out at the people telling them those things. They aren't being attacked, they aren't being treated unfairly, they just don't have the ability to look at the situation from another perspective other than their own. Nothing is going to change that no matter how nice it would be. The point of the forum isn't to hold hands and sing Kumbaya, it's to talk about the game and figure out what you can do better and what you are doing wrong. If everyone is afraid of hurting someone else's feelings nothing is going to happen of any substance. No one likes to be on the receiving end of the abrasiveness, but that doesn't mean you don't need to hear what is being said.

I somewhat agree, but does not apply to everyone. If people had a better approach and calmed the situation instead of feeding it, people may get a better response and outcome.
 

RaveWolf

Active Member
Perhaps a better approach (and I'm speaking to my future self here too), would simply be to put a person straight from the get go...
Somewhere along the lines of..."If you're gonna be rude, then we can't assist with your query.". If they continue simply ignore them and and report to a Mod.

*** Update Edit... this was an additional response to Ozyman's post ***
 

DeletedUser31440

I somewhat agree, but does not apply to everyone. If people had a better approach and calmed the situation instead of feeding it, people may get a better response and outcome.

How do you calm this situation?

Player A: X is unfair and should be removed from the game.
Player B: X is a vital check and balance of the game. It is needed because of Y.
Player A: That's not true, the devs wouldn't have done that.
Player B: The devs did that.
Player A: That's fricking ridiculous, you're just stupid and don't want me to succeed.

Regardless of what Player B tells Player A it's not going to get through. They steadfastly believe they are in the right and every other opinion is hogwash. Why the frick should I care if I offend them at that point, they've been making up ridiculous statements that can't be proven and they've decided to start resorting to personal attacks.
 

RaveWolf

Active Member
How do you calm this situation?

Player A: X is unfair and should be removed from the game.
Player B: X is a vital check and balance of the game. It is needed because of Y.
Player A: That's not true, the devs wouldn't have done that.
Player B: The devs did that.
Player A: That's fricking ridiculous, you're just stupid and don't want me to succeed.

Regardless of what Player B tells Player A it's not going to get through. They steadfastly believe they are in the right and every other opinion is hogwash. Why the frick should I care if I offend them at that point, they've been making up ridiculous statements that can't be proven and they've decided to start resorting to personal attacks.

I hear you, that is a difficult situation... like my last statement and assuming Player A's last statement, that is a personal attack and should be Reported to Mods and set straight as suggested, then Ignored until the attitude changes.

We are here to assist each other, if someone doesn't want assistance, then don't give it. If they want to fight, then Ignore them as Fighting is against the rules and fighting back is just the same.

However if the person keeps on debating and you can see that they simply don't get it but is constantly trying to fish for the answer, then perhaps they simply just don't get it, no matter how hard you try. Try a different example or set a scenario as you just did to help give some understanding of the mechanics of the game... but if we are going to simply attack by insulting peoples profile names, avatars or signatures, etc... then what does one expect the outcome to be from someone simply trying to learn.
Parents, Teachers and Lecturers don't give up because someone simply doesn't get it... They find a way that that person would understand... Instead what I find on this forum, is that a lot (not all) people get reprimanded for just not getting it.
Understand that them, "not getting" is also frustrating on their side and can sometimes filter through as being aggressive, when in actual fact it's just frustrating and no-ones fault per se.
 

DeletedUser31440

I hear you, that is a difficult situation... like my last statement and assuming Player A's last statement, that is a personal attack and should be Reported to Mods and set straight as suggested, then Ignored until the attitude changes.

We are here to assist each other, if someone doesn't want assistance, then don't give it. If they want to fight, then Ignore them as Fighting is against the rules and fighting back is just the same.

However if the person keeps on debating and you can see that they simply don't get it but is constantly trying to fish for the answer, then perhaps they simply just don't get it, no matter how hard you try. Try a different example or set a scenario as you just did to help give some understanding of the mechanics of the game... but if we are going to simply attack by insulting peoples profile names, avatars or signatures, etc... then what does one expect the outcome to be from someone simply trying to learn.
Parents, Teachers and Lecturers don't give up because someone simply doesn't get it... They find a way that that person would understand... Instead what I find on this forum, is that a lot (not all) people get reprimanded for just not getting it.
Understand that them, "not getting" is also frustrating on their side and can sometimes filter through as being aggressive, when in actual fact it's just frustrating and no-ones fault per se.

Reporting the posts isn't going to do anything other than make them feel like they are being attacked by the mods as well at that point. So now you've got someone that is stuck in their opinion, unwilling to listen to anything, and believes that the mods are sticking up for the forum "bullies". Reality is they just don't understand enough of the game to see why something is necessary and instead of trying to figure it out they want the game changed so it is more "fair" for them. I don't really want those people on the forum, so I have no problem persuading them not to come back at that point.
 

Bruadhin

Active Member
This is how I view all of this topic. People don't like being told that their ideas are bad, people don't like being told that the position they are in is due to their own errors, and people when confronted with those tend to get defensive and lash out at the people telling them those things. They aren't being attacked, they aren't being treated unfairly, they just don't have the ability to look at the situation from another perspective other than their own. Nothing is going to change that no matter how nice it would be. The point of the forum isn't to hold hands and sing Kumbaya, it's to talk about the game and figure out what you can do better and what you are doing wrong. If everyone is afraid of hurting someone else's feelings nothing is going to happen of any substance. No one likes to be on the receiving end of the abrasiveness, but that doesn't mean you don't need to hear what is being said.

That is far from unique to this forum. I have seen it in every forum, Facebook group, etc. I have ever been a part of. People join, think they have some awesome new idea no one has ever heard of, and don't respond well when the old-timers try to tell them it gets suggested every other week, and why it doesn't work.
 

RaveWolf

Active Member
Reporting the posts isn't going to do anything other than make them feel like they are being attacked by the mods as well at that point. So now you've got someone that is stuck in their opinion, unwilling to listen to anything, and believes that the mods are sticking up for the forum "bullies". Reality is they just don't understand enough of the game to see why something is necessary and instead of trying to figure it out they want the game changed so it is more "fair" for them. I don't really want those people on the forum, so I have no problem persuading them not to come back at that point.

Now this is what I like... a good back and forth debate with clarity.
You are correct that they might feel that way from the Mods too.
How can we change that, and how can we advise them to test out situations, or even provide scenarios or even links to examples of what they are requesting.
They (in theory) are coming to the forum for advise from "professional" long time players, who in turn can only advise based on experience.

We just need to be able to try and differentiate between stubbornness and simply just not understanding. It is a fine line, but we need to put ourselves not in their shoes, but perhaps the shoes we all once wore when we first started.
 

DeletedUser31440

How can we change that, and how can we advise them to test out situations, or even provide scenarios or even links to examples of what they are requesting.

I don't think you can if they don't want to listen. I'd like to be able to help every person and answer every question, but it just isn't feasible or possible when the people asking for advice refuse to listen to it. It's not some grand mystery in my mind, it's plain stubbornness and the inability to step outside the situation to get a better view of the whole and I don't think that can be changed.
 

DeletedUser29726

How do you calm this situation?

Player A: X is unfair and should be removed from the game.
Player B: X is a vital check and balance of the game. It is needed because of Y.
Player A: That's not true, the devs wouldn't have done that.
Player B: The devs did that.
Player A: That's fricking ridiculous, you're just stupid and don't want me to succeed.

Regardless of what Player B tells Player A it's not going to get through. They steadfastly believe they are in the right and every other opinion is hogwash. Why the frick should I care if I offend them at that point, they've been making up ridiculous statements that can't be proven and they've decided to start resorting to personal attacks.

You said your piece with your first response. The second response is just biting on joining in a "yes - no" argument. If you're not adding anything informative that you didn't say in your first response you can just drop it at that point instead. Them getting the last word is not going to suddenly get their proposal implemented or even forwarded.
 

DeletedUser31440

You said your piece with your first response. The second response is just biting on joining in a "yes - no" argument. If you're not adding anything informative that you didn't say in your first response you can just drop it at that point instead. Them getting the last word is not going to suddenly get their proposal implemented or even forwarded.

Why would you want them to feel welcome at that point?
 

Emberguard

Well-Known Member
They steadfastly believe they are in the right and every other opinion is hogwash. Why the frick should I care if I offend them at that point, they've been making up ridiculous statements that can't be proven and they've decided to start resorting to personal attacks.
Once it gets to that point I would prefer you say nothing at all or "sorry then I can't help you. Perhaps someone else can" then get into personal attacks because they either don't understand what's being said or don't want to accept what's being said.

Why should you care? Because if you care about the game then how we treat others when they come for help will effect the game.
 

Algona

Well-Known Member
Why should you care?

You've responded to tiny city deceiver over in the 'Help. I'm being plundered' thread.

That poster is a wonderful example that should be considered in this thread.

Repeatedly giving the most destructive suggestions I've seen on these forums no matter how many people tell them how they are wrong and effective techniques to fix their problem, no matte how phrased: rudely, nicely, with great information, or a verbal punch in the nose.

Consider what happens when some trusting poster looking for plunder help happens to read tiny city deceivers next post in that thread before anyone responds. Sooner or later tiny city deceiver is going to screw over players unless they quit posting their crappy advice.

You've given some great suggestions in this thread about possible ways to handle, shall we say, difficult posters. Do any of those apply to or work on posters the like of tiny city deceiver?

How much harm does it do to the game when a player unjustly villifies INNO and incites others to quit the game?

Are there other situations where being nice and or turning the other cheek and or doing nothing can be harmful to individual players or the game at large? Think about it.

That's why I care.

Respect!! All round!! MYSELF INCLUDED!!

There's a popular adage about respect. I'd be much obliged if someone else quotes it so you'll know I'm not making it up.

After that adage is posted, come back and answer these questions:

What has tiny city deceiver done to earn or deserve any respect?

What respect is due any poster who repeatedly and almost exclusively makes egregious posts?
 
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Graviton

Well-Known Member
You've given some great suggestions in this thread about possible ways to handle, shall we say, difficult posters. Do any of those apply to or work on posters the like of tiny city deceiver?

That's not going to work on all posters. Since we're talking about adages, I have one: don't allow the perfect to be the enemy of the good. This tactic will not work on all posters. I'll wager that it will work on most.

There's a popular adage about respect. I'd be much obliged if someone else quotes it so you'll know I'm not making it up.

I don't believe respect must be earned. I believe respect should be given by default unless and until one is given a reason not to. That sounds like basic human decency to me. Being crappy with people until they prove themselves doesn't earn anybody respect.

What respect is due any poster who repeatedly and almost exclusively makes egregious posts?

Well, none, but it's been stated a few times in this thread and others that those aren't the posters we've been talking about. We're talking about posters who are attacked by us, not those who are the first to display an attitude.

And I will repeat: we don't all need to be nicer. If you're really hell-bent on tearing new posters new orifices no matter what, like Agent, go ahead.
 

DeletedUser31440

Once it gets to that point I would prefer you say nothing at all or "sorry then I can't help you. Perhaps someone else can" then get into personal attacks because they either don't understand what's being said or don't want to accept what's being said.

Why should you care? Because if you care about the game then how we treat others when they come for help will effect the game.

So I'm not saying attack flat out anyone, but if someone has shown that they can't defend their position, make up facts, and then resort to attacking those that disagree with them, they are perfectly acceptable targets. A large portion of this game is based off of player to player interactions and a community of players that work together because they trust one another. I just apply that to the forums as well.

If you were to get the crap end of the stick on a fp exchange or buying goods from another player and sent in a ticket to support you would get a canned response back to the effect of, "The social constructs in the game will make it hard for this player moving forward as you guys then have the right to share your experience and spread the word player cannot be trusted etc."

The expectation is that players live and die by their actions and interactions with other players. If noone trusts you in game you will have a hard time finding a good guild, finding people to swap fp's with, and buying advanced aged goods. If someone is exceptionally unaware of the social constructs it's not unheard of to have multiple people in a hood team up on them and plunder their city as often as possible. The whole goal of that isn't to take their resources it's to get them to stop playing the game. This shouldn't be something that is applied willy-nilly to everyone but it is an option that can, and sometimes should, be excercised.

Edit: Removed a redundant potion of a sentence.
 
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DeletedUser31440

Counterpoint to the above, maybe it shouldn't be a one thread and done scenario. Reserve the more aggressive persuasions for the multiple offenders who have shown they have no ability or intent to change.
 
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