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Global Environmental protection-fact /fiction or foolish?

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spnnr

Well-Known Member
The scenario:

Globally, governments are seeking to preserve sites deemed of high environmental value even those which extend beyond their sovereign boundaries. To accomplish this resources that can be spent on direct improvement of their population lives has been diverted to these causes. This may take the form of debt for nature swaps e.g. between US and Brazil where Brazils 21M debt is converted into a fund to protect ecosystems (2010), direct " grants" to Niger, Tajikistan and Bangladesh from the World bank or the regular climate aid received by Caribbean countries from donor countries such as Japan, who ironically vote to continue whaling:(

The Question:

Should countries recognize the limitations of their international actions and adopt an environmental protection policy within its own territories and jurisdictions? Or is it an obligation of global proportions.:confused:
 

DeletedUser11427

The global community can't even agree on politics, and many nations are already try to impose their political views on others. While environmental concerns effect all countries, efforts to intercede as mentioned with Brazil above have failed. The countries involved have mismanaged the funds given.
 

spnnr

Well-Known Member
I agree, most of the countries collecting the funds are known for low levels of transparency. Why waste your taxpayers money to grease the palm of a despot hoping he plants some trees?
 

Algona

Well-Known Member
I'm a fence sitter on this one.

One side, Bribing people to be reasonable gives the bribe receiver incentive to find more ways to be unreasonable, see The Mouse That Roared.

Flip side, the crap anyone puts in the air winds up everywhere. see Why Beans and Beer Make Short Lived Parties.

One Side: I'm a firm believer in being an example for the world, the Shining City on the Hill Theory.

Flip Side. We seem more 19th Century then 21st Century,

I suppose we could let the rest of the world commit suicide if we can figure out a way that they don't take us with them. I suppose we'll get there as long as there is money in it and the technique developers bribe the right gov't drones.

Me? Pessimist? Optimist? Dunno. Pestymist? I like that.
 

spnnr

Well-Known Member
I'm a fence sitter on this one.

One side, Bribing people to be reasonable gives the bribe receiver incentive to find more ways to be unreasonable, see The Mouse That Roared.

Flip side, the crap anyone puts in the air winds up everywhere. see Why Beans and Beer Make Short Lived Parties.

One Side: I'm a firm believer in being an example for the world, the Shining City on the Hill Theory.

Flip Side. We seem more 19th Century then 21st Century,

I suppose we could let the rest of the world commit suicide if we can figure out a way that they don't take us with them. I suppose we'll get there as long as there is money in it and the technique developers bribe the right gov't drones.

Me? Pessimist? Optimist? Dunno. Pestymist? I like that.

This fence sitting won't do Algona :)
Otherwise we wont get much done either way.
 

Mustapha00

Well-Known Member
For the purpose of this discussion, I will stipulate that climate change is real and that humans are responsible for most of the change.

If both of those are true, then the only way a solution may be found and implemented is if the entire world participates in that solution, be they First, Second, Third or Eleventh World countries. To quote Benjamin Franklin, "We must all hang together, else assuredly we would all hang separately."
 

spnnr

Well-Known Member
I agree , I do believe climate change is real -the other part of that sentence I am agnostic about.
Sounds like a nice soundbite but this isnt about about principles to live by. The scenario involves sacrificing your citizens potential happiness by throwing it in the hands of countries that maybe "third world" for a reason.
Fighting environmental issues by proxy -does it work?
 

Algona

Well-Known Member
This fence sitting won't do Algona :)
Otherwise we wont get much done either way.

You're prolly right. I reckon I could defend my barricade ballet by saying something like since we don't have a frigggin' idea what the heck is going on re weather / coming ice age./ global warming / climate change that maybe instead of spending trillions on doing stuff and making others do stuff, we should spend the money on understanding what the heck is going on? Lot easier to fix the problem when you know how the system works and what is causing the problem?

If i have to answer the specific question now, and it is a lovely question reaching right to the heart of the philosophies of national sovreignty, liberty, and universal welfare...

A sovereign nation has the obligation to protect it's citizens from the harmful actions of other sovereign nations.

However, that don't necessarily mean sending in the Marines and installing a puppet gov't.

In this case, ima steal an idea from Jerry Pournelle. (Whence he got it, I know not).

By an act of Congress: The United States of America will pay One Trillion Dollars to the first legal entity that provides X gigawatthourss of electricity safely for Y years at a cost of Z dollars per kilowatthour.

Sure, a lot of legalese to figure it out, but the idea is to set a decent reward and get the hell out of the way. There's a lot of smart golk out there and given the incentive someone will come up with the answer,

In the meantime, keep the Marines ready.
 

DeletedUser28015

I agree , I do believe climate change is real -the other part of that sentence I am agnostic about.

http://www.ucsusa.org/global_warmin...uman-contribution-to-gw-faq.html#.WI0rEPkrIp8

http://globalwarming-facts.info/causes-global-warming-human/

https://skepticalscience.com/empirical-evidence-for-global-warming.htm

Aside from the fact that there is overwhelming scientific evidence that global warming (which is the driver for rapid and extreme climate change) is a result of human activity and that the pushback is ideological, not scientific or rational, and heavily funded by the FF industry, Mustapha00 didn't say that is the case or that he believes it to be the case, he said he stipulates it for the purpose of discussion. To say "I agree" suggests that you have no idea what that means.
 
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Algona

Well-Known Member
It's important to note that this forum already tackled the Global Warming thingie a while back, there is a thread a little way down. Hardly surprising, we didn't come to an agreement.

Please don't waste the limited space in this thread (it gets shut off at 100 posts) hashing out whether (weather? ahhahahahah! I made a funny) amthropomorphic climate change is a problem.

For the sake of this thread and the really cool question being asked, assume that it's real and dangerous and your grandkids better learn to swim.
 

spnnr

Well-Known Member
The risk of climate change is not an issue that changes the pivot on which the debate lies..besides those guys you linked to arent the best ppl to claim unbiased representation.
 

spnnr

Well-Known Member
Darn -you beat me to it.
So back to the issue - why bother chucking money into Brazilian rain forest and reafforestation projects around the world which is largely misspent while the Chinese/India continue to ramp up pollution emissions in the hope of giving their citizens a better life.
 

DeletedUser28015

since we don't have a frigggin' idea what the heck is going on re weather / coming ice age./ global warming / climate change

This is true of ignorant people with no scientific background who make no effort to learn, in the same way that "we" have no friggin' idea how the internet works, but it's not true of the accumulated scientific knowledge of humanity.
 

DeletedUser28015

The risk of climate change is not an issue that changes the pivot on which the debate lies..besides those guys you linked to arent the best ppl to claim unbiased representation.

No, actually, they are, whereas intellectually dishonest ideologues like you are not. If you have a rebuttal to the massive scientific evidence presented in those links, go ahead and offer it, but I have plenty of experience with right wing / libertarian climate science deniers and know that no such thing will occur.

Over and out.
 

spnnr

Well-Known Member
There is a good paper which is a bit dated which deals with the effectiveness of Payment for Environmental Services which can be found here
http://www.environmentportal.in/files/file/Environmental Services Programs.pdf

Whats interesting is that it provides a better understanding of how these programs work and does a fair job at analyzing the effectiveness of such programs. While it doesn't shift the debate , it does give some sense of the success rate as it would be silly to state they are all waste of money.
 

Mustapha00

Well-Known Member
Many of the scientists and academics who support AGW theory receive grants and stipends from various governments. Those government, in turn, tend also to support AGW theory. If it is certain that AGW dissenters are funded by the fossil fuel industry to come to a conclusion the fossil fuel industry desires, is it not also possible that AGW proponents are funded by governments to come to a conclusion that the governments desire? If not, why not (and please spare us any lecture on the virtue of governments in general)?
 

spnnr

Well-Known Member
It seems that this issue will continue to be muddled by the mixing of the climate change issue and PES concerns regarding its legitimacy and efficacy.

I therefore Yield to my betters.
 

DeletedUser28015

Those government, in turn, tend also to support AGW theory.

Because that's what the scientific evidence overwhelmingly indicates. However, most governments balk at the scientific findings and have dragged their heels for decades to address it, because they are mostly beholden to industrial interests. The Trump administration is the pinnacle of that. By your absurd and deeply intellectually dishonest reasoning, U.S. scientists will now start churning out anti-AGW studies because that's what Trump wants. (The reality is that Trump is proceeding to shut down all funding of climate science research because he doesn't want to hear what that research concludes. Thus, http://www.attn.com/stories/14460/h...cuing-climate-data-during-trumps-inauguration)

"please spare us any lecture on the virtue of governments in general"

This sort of strawman admonition is consistent with and demonstrative of the deep fundamental intellectual dishonesty of your sort. I'm surprised that you didn't just come right out and damn me as a "statist".

is it not also possible that AGW proponents are funded by governments to come to a conclusion that the governments desire?

Many things are possible, but what you need is argument and evidence. It's funny -- and deeply intellectually dishonest -- that you equate the proven certainty that the FF industry funds "dissent" with a mere possibility that ... what, that every single one of the tens of thousands of scientists working in numerous disciplines related to climate science have faked their results? And it's not just government scientists, but the military, the insurance industry and particularly the reinsurance industry (there is plenty of material on this if you can be bothered to look, e.g., http://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesco...ng-we-dont-about-global-warming/#42c168af1f23, http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-linden-insurance-climate-change-20140617-story.html) and even Exxon's own scientists who Exxon's documents prove they squelched. By calling scientists "AGW proponents", you have created a circular argument, assuming your conclusion that they are "proponents", when mostly they are just trying to figure out how the world works -- that's why people become scientists. (If they were out to make a lot of money by fudging research, they would do far better to work for the FF industry ... where the money would actually go into their pockets; grant money doesn't. It's funny how "free market" folks come up with ridiculous theories that totally contradict the law of supply and demand and their own [disproven] notions about people being "rational agents" driven to maximize their wealth.) Scientists don't simply come to conclusions, they do research, present evidence, go through peer review; the conclusions follow from the research, not v.v. The conclusions are challenged by other scientists, who are motivated to overturn them. Your whole framework here is deeply intellectually dishonest and shows no familiarity with how science is actually done. (https://arstechnica.com/science/201...iven-reveal-ignorance-of-how-science-is-done/) Anyone who could validly disprove the massive, overwhelming, multidisciplinary evidence in support of AGW would be rolling in grant money and would be up for a Nobel Prize. Just a small amount of that overwhelming evidence is presented in the links I provided that spnnr dismissed with an ad hominem fallacy (the real kind, that attacks the character of the source of an argument rather than addressing the content of the argument), and there is far far more if you could be bothered to look at it rather indulge in such ridiculous talk of what is possible. Yes, it's possible, just as it's possible that I'm the Duke of Earl. Now let's see you do the research to overturn any of the findings of climate science. It's possible that you could, but it's far more likely that you deny the conclusions of science merely because you don't want them to be true. Well, no one wants them to be true, but they are.

For ideas of how you could win your Nobel Prize, start with

http://www.realclimate.org/index.ph...ncreases-are-due-to-human-activities-updated/

Maybe try doing some research the refutes the evidence of carbon isotope signatures that points directly to human industrial activity. You might need to bone up on some basic chemistry first.

But it's easier to remain completely ignorant of every aspect of this subject and instead absurdly wave your hands about the possibility that the thousands upon thousands of peer reviewed research articles and all the satellite and buoy and ground station data and the basic physics of greenhouse gases that has been known since Tinsdale and Arrhenius can all be dismissed as sucking up to government research grants.

https://arstechnica.com/science/201...sts-push-the-consensus-its-not-for-the-money/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming_conspiracy_theory

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/2012/03/22/why-global-warming-skeptics-are-wrong/

http://www.theverge.com/2017/1/19/1...tion-science-politics-climate-change-vaccines

http://www.climatesciencewatch.org/...of-climate-science-takes-down-the-denialists/
 
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Algona

Well-Known Member
It seems that this issue will continue to be muddled by the mixing of the climate change issue and PES concerns regarding its legitimacy and efficacy.

I therefore Yield to THE FANATICS.

fFixed. They ain't your betters spnnr, merely fanatics.

Hallmarks of fanaticism: Name calling, rudeness, insistence on talking about your subject even though it is not the topic of discussion, unyielding the certainty that anyone who disagrees with you in the smallest detail is both ignorant and evil.

Too bad, spnnr, I think you had a great question and topic.
 

DeletedUser28015

I yield to ignorant dishonest hypocritical garbage. At least I knew enough to write the above for my own amusement, knowing that trash would not read it and would mischaracterize it. Goodbye.
 
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