DeletedUser26120
I see it now, it really blends in there lol.
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Goods: A case AGAINST Dresden and Royal Albert Hall
- Thread starter Trobb de Grobb
- Start date
DeletedUser25920
Going back to the original topic of the thread (GB’s that produce goods) I have a slightly different view. I am of the opinion that such GBs (and actually almost all GBs) should be judged on their primary benefit (coin % boost , supply % boost, attack%) and not on the secondary benefit, which is may be a very welcome added bonus or something completely useless (CoA vs CdM is an example; but we still build both to level 10)
The goods provided by LoA, St Marks, Dresden, Babel are very welcome (in earlier ages) but a drop in the ocean compared to the total amount of goods one needs to produce/acquire. (The bulk will be obtained by conventional goods buildings, recurring quests, plundering etc)
Additionally, FoE has introduced a multitude of special buildings that produce goods (on top of other things) and these goods are refined goods from ME onwards. What’s more, all of these special buildings (except Caravansaray and fishing hut) are more efficient (goods/tile) in producing refined goods than conventional goods buildings (from ME onwards) even taking into account that the raw materials (unrefined goods) are provided for free by GBs. And with the multitude of events and weekly GE, one can obtain sufficient number of them, as well as renokits/one-up kits to update earlier ones, so I do not see there is any need to ever build a conventional goods building from ME onwards (since one is better off building a bazaar, tribal square, oasis, terrace farm etc instead). And if conventional goods buildings are not needed from ME onwards, these makes the unrefined goods produced by the GBs useless. So such buildings should not be evaluated on how many unrefined goods they produce, but on their primary benefit. The goods are very welcome up to PE, and much less welcome from ME onwards. So, in my opinion Babel should not be built at all, as its population is too little to make it worthwhile. As for the argument that they produce unplunderable goods, this is only valid up to PE. Because what’s the point of the raw materials being unplunderable when the refined goods themselves will be very much plunderable?
And while we are on the topic, RAH is a bigger and better LoA, but does one need both? (for supply boost because that should be the criterion in my opinion). I think no. And since one can get LoA much earlier and cheaper, there is no need to ever build RAH. (Unless someone manages to build RAH instead of LoA in IA or EMA, -eg with the help of generous guildmates- then they never build LoA and just have RAH instead).Of course if in later ages and with diamond expansions one has more space, one can build whatever they want. But if we are asking how we use the space more efficiently, then we should not be trying to maximise the amount of unrefined goods. We build LoA for supply boost, St Marks for Coin boost, Dresden for happiness (if we decide it is worthwhile). We can also build RAH for % supply boost (although that is debatable). And we do not build Babel as it provides too little population.
The goods provided by LoA, St Marks, Dresden, Babel are very welcome (in earlier ages) but a drop in the ocean compared to the total amount of goods one needs to produce/acquire. (The bulk will be obtained by conventional goods buildings, recurring quests, plundering etc)
Additionally, FoE has introduced a multitude of special buildings that produce goods (on top of other things) and these goods are refined goods from ME onwards. What’s more, all of these special buildings (except Caravansaray and fishing hut) are more efficient (goods/tile) in producing refined goods than conventional goods buildings (from ME onwards) even taking into account that the raw materials (unrefined goods) are provided for free by GBs. And with the multitude of events and weekly GE, one can obtain sufficient number of them, as well as renokits/one-up kits to update earlier ones, so I do not see there is any need to ever build a conventional goods building from ME onwards (since one is better off building a bazaar, tribal square, oasis, terrace farm etc instead). And if conventional goods buildings are not needed from ME onwards, these makes the unrefined goods produced by the GBs useless. So such buildings should not be evaluated on how many unrefined goods they produce, but on their primary benefit. The goods are very welcome up to PE, and much less welcome from ME onwards. So, in my opinion Babel should not be built at all, as its population is too little to make it worthwhile. As for the argument that they produce unplunderable goods, this is only valid up to PE. Because what’s the point of the raw materials being unplunderable when the refined goods themselves will be very much plunderable?
And while we are on the topic, RAH is a bigger and better LoA, but does one need both? (for supply boost because that should be the criterion in my opinion). I think no. And since one can get LoA much earlier and cheaper, there is no need to ever build RAH. (Unless someone manages to build RAH instead of LoA in IA or EMA, -eg with the help of generous guildmates- then they never build LoA and just have RAH instead).Of course if in later ages and with diamond expansions one has more space, one can build whatever they want. But if we are asking how we use the space more efficiently, then we should not be trying to maximise the amount of unrefined goods. We build LoA for supply boost, St Marks for Coin boost, Dresden for happiness (if we decide it is worthwhile). We can also build RAH for % supply boost (although that is debatable). And we do not build Babel as it provides too little population.
DeletedUser
So, first of all, GBs should be evaluated on all aspects, not just one. And who decides which is the primary benefit and which is the secondary?
That is not true at all. I am in CE in my main world, and I produce lots of Progressive goods that I can make available to lower era guildmates and friends. That in turn benefits me, either directly from FP donations they make in exchange, or indirectly by being in a stronger guild or having stronger friends.
Algona
Well-Known Member
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the path Lady E follows, but it's not the only path.
Groupthink much? As I was reading Lady E's post I was thinking pretty much the same things Stephen. Lady E and I disagree on how to evaluate GBs and how to best make Goods. I expereimented with Special Event Buildings as my primary source of Goods, I didn't like it. Othere love it, and I'm fine with that. I'll be curious to see how they feel a couple Eras from now.
I like to produce LOTS of specific Goods. I'm not a fan of depending on trading. I like to minimize Aid and plunder targets in my city. Event Buildings don't produce the Goods in the quantitity or of the type I want, they soak up Aids, and/or can be plundered. Should I ever decide to get really sicko perved out, some day I may power level SMB or RAH. Hard to do that with a Special Event Building.
I'm CE also and my goal is churning out a Traz every week. I'd never get there w/o 5 Goods GBs spewing out 160 Unrefined Goods per day. When I switch to selling Inno Tower Goods I'll still be wanting those unrefined Goods to support my CE Goods buildings.
When (if? CE is such fun!) I move up in Era I won't have to do a thing to get the unrefined Goods for the that Era, boom, 160 Goods per day. I'd rather build current Era Goods buildings the day I enter the new Era then burn RKs ane 1Ups or wait to win stuff in GE.
Groupthink much? As I was reading Lady E's post I was thinking pretty much the same things Stephen. Lady E and I disagree on how to evaluate GBs and how to best make Goods. I expereimented with Special Event Buildings as my primary source of Goods, I didn't like it. Othere love it, and I'm fine with that. I'll be curious to see how they feel a couple Eras from now.
I like to produce LOTS of specific Goods. I'm not a fan of depending on trading. I like to minimize Aid and plunder targets in my city. Event Buildings don't produce the Goods in the quantitity or of the type I want, they soak up Aids, and/or can be plundered. Should I ever decide to get really sicko perved out, some day I may power level SMB or RAH. Hard to do that with a Special Event Building.
I'm CE also and my goal is churning out a Traz every week. I'd never get there w/o 5 Goods GBs spewing out 160 Unrefined Goods per day. When I switch to selling Inno Tower Goods I'll still be wanting those unrefined Goods to support my CE Goods buildings.
When (if? CE is such fun!) I move up in Era I won't have to do a thing to get the unrefined Goods for the that Era, boom, 160 Goods per day. I'd rather build current Era Goods buildings the day I enter the new Era then burn RKs ane 1Ups or wait to win stuff in GE.
DeletedUser
While I dispute her view of GBs, I actually share her view on special/event buildings supplying current era goods. I have not one goods building in my CE city, yet I have lots of CE goods, due to Tribal Squares and such. Not only do I have over 1000 each of Progressive goods from my GBs, I also have over 1000 each CE goods (even after donating 1200 for the event) from my special/event buildings. Generally non-plunderable because they have to be motivated in order to produce the goods.
DeletedUser25920
Maybe I should rephrase that to say that GBs should be evaluated mainly on the primary benefit, when they do have a primary benefit. As to who decides that, you can decide it, and every player individually if they want to. Overall, of course I agree that a GB should be judged overall as a package of benefits. However looking at most GBs and the way their benefits are set up by Inno, it just happens that most GBs do have a clear primary benefit. The only exception I can think at the moment is the Traz. Say a GB (eg St Marks) has benefits A and B. And you judge overall that it is a worthwhile to build. Fine. You can go further and ask yourself: If it only had benefit A, would I still build it? (Yes/No) If it only had benefit B, would I still build it? (Yes/No). The decision to build it will not change, but the answer to these questions can be insightful. For example, I maintain that I would build St Marks for the coins boost alone, but not for the goods alone. Hence the coin boost is the primary benefit. (Of course I much prefer it with the extra goods!)
Whereas the same question for Traz is more tricky. Here, for most people, you need both benefits to make it worthwhile, and it is not clear which would be a primary benefit. I think some people would still build it for the units alone (unique benefit), but the happiness helps justify its size.
Also for Dresden and Hagia (which I like and have built), I consider the happiness the primary benefit. But because happiness does not age well, they need a nice secondary benefit to justify building them. Not that many people build them as it is. But if the secondary benefit was flat coins/supplies or a handful of medals, (rather than goods and FP) they would have even fewer takers.
Maybe useless is too strong a word, I should say much less useful (compared to getting current era goods up to PE) , but of course the goods are worth something and one much rather than have them than not. However I was responding to the argument that in later eras you need more current goods (even for research alone) and the goods are harder to obtain/produce, so having the GBs produce double the amount of unrefined goods helps us to produce (by conventional goods building) the needed current era goods. I maintain that since it is current era goods we are after, the more efficient way is to produce them directly by special buildings, rather than refine them using conventional goods buildings. The opening post is after all about efficiency (goods/tile) and the special buildings beat any conventional goods building from ME upwards.
As for the less useful unrefined goods (compared to getting current era goods), of course one can find some use for them. But “finding some use for them and hence deriving some benefit from them” <> “choose which GBs to build with the goal of maximising the unrefined goods produced”. That is what I am saying.
As for possible uses:
- Build 2-3 conventional goods buildings to use them up.
- Trade them upwards for higher era goods
- If at a high enough era that goods of 3 ages earlier are needed for popular GBs by even lower age players, trade them for FP. Or, if one is generous, give them for free – or almost free - to lower age guildmates to build GBs.
- If one has not stockpiled enough previous era goods before progressing in each age, they are still needed for research and CMap. (I check through the various guides/wiki articles how many goods are needed of current era for future research/CMap, and do not progress to the next age unless I have stockpiled enough, plus a couple of thousand (each) extra. But if one has progressed faster and does not have big enough stock, then they have this use as well).
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DeletedUser26154
Dresden and Royal Albert Hall are not really essential if you run a smaller city.
If you run a huge city with massive production, then you'll want them.
If you run a huge city with massive production, then you'll want them.
DeletedUser26120
Just popping in to say yes I think you need both RAH and LoA. Supply buildings give so little, really.
Even if you have a lot of them and are quest looping then both is still useful as it'll increase your amounts for the 'collect X supplies' quest. You won't run out of bonuses often since that's 24h production.
Even if you have a lot of them and are quest looping then both is still useful as it'll increase your amounts for the 'collect X supplies' quest. You won't run out of bonuses often since that's 24h production.
DeletedUser25920
In the early ages (up to CA) you can do more recurring quests by having production buildings in the space that RAH would occupy.
42 tiles is 7 alchemists or 7 clockmakers ie 3.5 quests. RAH levl 10 will increase supplies (assuming enthusiasm and everything motivated) by 43%. In CA with only LoA level 10, you need to collect from 13 clockmakers to complete one 'gather 110,000 supplies'
By adding a lvl 10 RAH, you would need to collect from only 8 clockmakers to complete one 'gather 110,000 supplies'. But because the vast majority of quests are done via the collect 2x24hr productions rather the "gather x supplies", and as you see from the numbers above, it is doubtful that adding RAH would enable you to do more quests.
But out of curiosity I did the math. If in CA you have say 70 clockmakers (and Level 10 LoA), and you replace 7 of them by a RAH (level 10), you will end up doing a similar amount of quests in total (taking into account in that the first case only 40 collections will be boosted by LoA level 10, and in the 2nd case the first 40 will be boosted by both (345% boost total from GBs), and the remaining only by RAH.
I even took into account that 7 clockmakers need more roads than 1 RAH, so added an extra clockmaker in the RAH scenario.
LoA Only
Collect 2x24 hr production: 35 quests/day
Gather x supplies: 3.2 quests/day
Total: 39.2 quests/day
LoA + RAH
Collect 2x24 hr production: 32 quests/day
Gather x supplies: 7.7 quests/day
Total: 39.7 quests/day
So you 'gain' half a quest per day (after having spent 3,860 FP to get RAH to level 10). Essentially, in rough numbers, you do 3 "more gather X supplies" quests, but you do 3 "less collect 2x24hr production", so you end up where you started. So the numbers do not support your argument. Let alone the time and effort to level up RAH. And you need it to level 10 to gain the half quest per day. At level 9 you just break even (39.3 quests per day), and at level 8 you are doing slightly worse (39 quests per day).
After CA you can do very few recurring quests anyway. And true that RAH would enable you to do more 'gather X supplies' quests than without it, but the difference is miniscule (as the X in "gather X supplies" rises too steeply with each successive era)
For IndA, say you have 70 gunsmiths (do not know if anyone builds that many, as the last age where looping quests are efficient is CA). Then LoA lvl10 only vs LoA + RAH lvl10 give the same amount of total quests per day 38.6
In the 1st case 35+3.6 quests per day
In the 2nd case 32+6.6 quests per day
Again what you gain from doing more gather X supplies, you loose by doing fewer gather 2x24hr collections
And lets say you have only 40 gunsmiths (more realistic), then you are doing 1 quest less per day by replacing some gunsmiths with the RAH (22.7 vs 21.7 with RAH).
Finally I checked this for ME (just to have an idea what the numbers look like in later ages)
Say you have 30 hatters with no RAH, or 26 Hatters with RAH. Again you end up with similar number of quests: 17 without RAH vs 16.4 with RAH (level 10). So it seems the same holds in later ages: the quests you gain by doing more gather X supplies, you loose by doing fewer collect 2x24hr productions.
So RAH helps to produce supplies faster, but does not help to do more recurring quests, as the 'gather X supplies' is a moving goalpost and keeps rising in each age (rises too fast for RAH to be of benefit in doing recurring quests).
Also the argument can be turned on its head: IF one wants to build the RAH in order to increase their supplies, then the numbers above show that they can do so and they will not have suffer a disadvantage by doing less 2x24hr quests, as the 'gather X coins' quest will make up for the lost '2x24 hr productions' quests. So as far as supply related recurring quests are concerned, RAH (at level 10) is neutral. You just produce more supplies in absolute terms by having it.
I think RAH is not needed (and does not fit in the limited space) in early eras. And from what I hear from players in the very late eras they are sitting on gazillions of coins/supplies/medals/goods. And with coins you can at least buy FP. There is nothing to do with the supplies. So I think RAH is useful only in the middle eras. But to build it (say sometime after IndA), level it, and then later delete it, seems a waste. Also there is a specific (very high) number of supplies you need, just to to do all the tech. The total number of supplies you produce = rate at which you produce them x time during which you produce them. RAH (as well as number of production buildings) affect the 1st parameter. But there is also the 'time' parameter to consider. You can produce the same number of supplies without RAH (or even without LoA, and/or few production buildings). It will just take longer. So it depends how fast you want to progress through the eras. If you are content to go at a leisurely pace, there is no need for RAH. If want to go a bit faster, then you build it. So it is up to personal preferences/playing style. For myself I am in no hurry to progress though the eras as I sit at each age to level off GBs, so I do not need it. (at the end of CA I currently have enough supplies for the tech of the next 6 eras plus 18 million change). For others it may be useful. As long as it is built for the right reasons (to increase the rate of supply production; and not in order to enable one to do more more recurring quests because that is not the case. And of course some players may like the goods it provides, but here I am responding to the supply boost argument, and the assertion that that it allows you to do more recurring quests by doing more "collect X supplies" ).
Btw there may be another scenario where RAH is useful, even when one progresses slowly and is not in a hurry to produce supplies for tech (and building expenses/goods production). I have a level10 chateau which has been very useful up to now (CA), but as I will be moving on from CA soon, its days of being very useful are ending (can do much fewer quest from IndA onwards). I will not delete it as that seems a waste of investment and still has some limited use in story/side/event/handful of recurring quests. But I was debating whether it is worth levelling higher. The more quests you do the more useful it is and the more worthwhile levelling it. The only quest one can do a lot of times at least in principle, is the unbirthday quest; but it is very expensive (again cost rises disproportionately with each successive age). But the chateau can bring down the net cost somewhat, by increasing the coins/supplies rewards. It is still very expensive and the limiting factor is the supplies rather than coins. So I was debating whether to build the RAH, which will give me more supplies, and then I can throw these additional supplies to the unbirthday quest. But I have done some preliminary calculations and the numbers do not look very appealing. I guess I will just have to wait until I reach AF/OF where from what I hear one can do recurring quests with blacksmiths. Although by the time I get there Inno will likely have changed this (if they haven't already).
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DeletedUser
I am constantly amazed at the fact that anytime someone does an "analysis" of the RAH, they completely ignore the goods it provides. In the above examples, a level 10 RAH provides 27 goods up to Progressive, and 54 unrefined goods thereafter. The 27 goods would be equal to between 2 and 5 extra quests per day, the range going from no CF to a level 10 CF.
DeletedUser25920
And I am not at all amazed that people constantly comment on posts they have failed to read properly. I was specifically replying to a post that asserted that RAH allows one to do more recurring quests in total by doing more 'gather x supplies'. My post was not an analysis on RAH, but an analysis on how its supply boost affects recurring quests, as I was responding to a post on this specific topic. I even said so. I even clarified that some people build the RAH for the goods, but that I am specifically talking about the supply boost.
Converting the RAH goods to recurring quest rewards equivalents is comparing apples with oranges. Recurring quests rewards are on top of everything else you get by any other means. Else people can argue, that there is no need to do recurring quests to get medals, as they get medals from PvP. Or that they do not need the goods from recurring quests because they are producing goods from goods buildings, plunder them or get them from GBs.The point is the recurring quests rewards in addition to what gain/produce by any other means. Also in both scenarios we have LoA that also produces goods. We do not add the LoA goods as extra quests that gave goods.
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DeletedUser
And the goods production of the RAH is on top of everything else, also. To ignore part of its production in an analysis like this is to skew the data in your favor. The production of the RAH doesn't disappear just because you want it to, and it isn't limited to just the supply boost, even if that's the only part of its benefits that suits your storyline. And it's not comparing apples to oranges, because goods is one of the rewards from recurring quests. That's apples to apples by any standard.
DeletedUser29218
CF is by far the best good GB in CA and below. I can't talk for future ages because I am not experienced there.
https://gyazo.com/b56168402c7de51113d761aca8022c9f
You forgot to account for the housing though (unless you are considering the scenario in which you have an inno tower).
Anyways, the conclusions from my calculations are the same you reach in yours. In some situations RAH increases the amount of daily quests, but the FP required to bring RAH to lvl 10 are better spend in other GB.
I also thought about leveling CF past lvl 10. The approach I took (and recommend) is to convert all rewards into fp, goods and medals. In other words:
1-Draw a probability table for each reward (I took the data from CR thread, I don't know how accurate it is)
2- Reinvest all coins/supplies packages into more coints supplies. You can consider only the limiting resource, or consider both (to check the "stored" quest you are doing).
3-Make a loop following 2 until it is over.
Note: if you are past HMA, the calculations are a bit longer because you need to account for each UBQ assisting the "collect supplies" quest.
This way you can calculate what do you get from getting CF past 10. My conclusions are that it is not worth it for CA and lower, but it might be good in later ages, if you need more goods (every 4 lvls of CF each quest gives you 1 more good).
https://gyazo.com/b56168402c7de51113d761aca8022c9f
You forgot to account for the housing though (unless you are considering the scenario in which you have an inno tower).
Anyways, the conclusions from my calculations are the same you reach in yours. In some situations RAH increases the amount of daily quests, but the FP required to bring RAH to lvl 10 are better spend in other GB.
I also thought about leveling CF past lvl 10. The approach I took (and recommend) is to convert all rewards into fp, goods and medals. In other words:
1-Draw a probability table for each reward (I took the data from CR thread, I don't know how accurate it is)
2- Reinvest all coins/supplies packages into more coints supplies. You can consider only the limiting resource, or consider both (to check the "stored" quest you are doing).
3-Make a loop following 2 until it is over.
Note: if you are past HMA, the calculations are a bit longer because you need to account for each UBQ assisting the "collect supplies" quest.
This way you can calculate what do you get from getting CF past 10. My conclusions are that it is not worth it for CA and lower, but it might be good in later ages, if you need more goods (every 4 lvls of CF each quest gives you 1 more good).
DeletedUser
This is not the heavy questing thread, please confine your propaganda to that thread. Thanks.
Algona
Well-Known Member
Dammit, my Chateau has a bug! All i get when I click on it is Coins.
DeletedUser29218
And when you click on the arc you get guild goods, but no FP packs?
If you don't want to talk about questing here, fair enough. I only wanted to mention that for CA and lower there is absolutely 0 reason to build a traditional good building (supporting the original statement in this thread, althought in a different way).
DeletedUser25166
Get out of here with that voodoo crapAnd when you click on the arc you get guild goods, but no FP packs?
If you don't want to talk about questing here, fair enough. I only wanted to mention that for CA and lower there is absolutely 0 reason to build a traditional good building (supporting the original statement in this thread, althought in a different way).
Trobb de Grobb
New Member
Interesting discussion. I can see if goods aren't your primary reason for getting a GB then your perspective would be different. In my OP my discussion was about the efficiency of producing goods...so my comments were based upon the assumption you wanted goods and wanted to be as efficient as possible. I also think it's interesting to use event buildings (with renno/one-up kits) to supply your needs.
After you build a GB the space efficiency argument is moot (unless you're willing to destroy the GB and throw away the resources spent in raising/leveling it). The RAH is tied with the LoA as the best in FP efficiency (FP spent per good produced) {Note: The Rain Forest is slightly more efficient but at such a late age I'll leave it our of my comparisons} So, up to level 10, the RAH is a very good source of goods.
However, if you plan on taking your goods buildings higher than level 10, the Tower of Babel is the clear winner in efficiency. After level 10, all the goods GBs only increase goods produced by 1 per level. Other than RAH, I would raise ToB above 10 before raising any of the other goods GBs to level 10. In fact, I would raise ToB to 12 before raising LoA to 10 and ToB to 18 before raising SMB & FoD to 10 and RAH to 11. So, I think if you're going to get a ToB sometime during the game why not get it early when the population matters? The ToB is space efficient up to and including the Colonial Age for population (at level 10). And, in any age, the ToB is an efficient GB producer of goods.
As a fairly new player all I have to go on is analyzing the numbers. In the Modern Era and beyond, how much need is there for goods? Should I plan on getting all the goods buildings? (Looking for advice)
Thank you,
Trobb
After you build a GB the space efficiency argument is moot (unless you're willing to destroy the GB and throw away the resources spent in raising/leveling it). The RAH is tied with the LoA as the best in FP efficiency (FP spent per good produced) {Note: The Rain Forest is slightly more efficient but at such a late age I'll leave it our of my comparisons} So, up to level 10, the RAH is a very good source of goods.
However, if you plan on taking your goods buildings higher than level 10, the Tower of Babel is the clear winner in efficiency. After level 10, all the goods GBs only increase goods produced by 1 per level. Other than RAH, I would raise ToB above 10 before raising any of the other goods GBs to level 10. In fact, I would raise ToB to 12 before raising LoA to 10 and ToB to 18 before raising SMB & FoD to 10 and RAH to 11. So, I think if you're going to get a ToB sometime during the game why not get it early when the population matters? The ToB is space efficient up to and including the Colonial Age for population (at level 10). And, in any age, the ToB is an efficient GB producer of goods.
As a fairly new player all I have to go on is analyzing the numbers. In the Modern Era and beyond, how much need is there for goods? Should I plan on getting all the goods buildings? (Looking for advice)
Thank you,
Trobb
DeletedUser26154
If you have enough of the goods-producing Great Buildings, this is true.
Get this leveled high enough and you won't need any goods buildings.