Guild vs Guild Improvements Feedback

[DeletedUser28124]

Well, every time I tried writing a response to this, it turns into a book, that I think no one will read. But I want to get some stuff posted. I think the idea from Dave the Narcissist is a very good one, with the 96 hour delay after being removed from a map. I think it will help counter the guilds who just point with no goal of actually claiming or holding land, which claiming and holding land does seem to be the intent behind GvG. Make trying to stay on the map important.


The 4hr calc will eliminate a lot of the worthwhile strategy in the game. There will still be strategy of course, but not strategy that can make you safe, so that you do not have to watch the maps all day long. Or a strategy that can actually stop a strong guild from taking as much as they can when you are not looking. Offense and availability will now be the biggest form of defense and could lead to GvG burnout for any guild actually trying to accomplish goals and control territory. Assuming they have at least equal competition for that land. The constant back and forth will be a major resource drain. Where I feel, if you want to make GvG more fun and get more people involved with the 4hr calc, reduce these resource costs. Let us fight, without major concern for resources. We will be losing way more sectors(goods) and sieging way more often. If all the fighting and losses are not as big of a blow to a guild’s treasury, I think this will be more fun, make losses not as rough, and allow guilds to continue to play and try to have some size. Right now, if you get into a big fight, you have to constantly release sectors and control your size to fight back in a small/ghost like state. Make the first 20 sectors like 1/5th the current cost, so that guilds can try to hold some land and still fight. After 20 sectors make the costs go up dramatically to prevent strong guilds from trying to claim a whole map. Cheapen the defense unlocks as well, which really seem to be way too expensive. We will have to use way more resources due to the 4hr calc, where the resource cost should be changed to accommodate that.


My next idea, I anticipate will not be well liked, but I’m gonna mention it anyways. Increase the amount of defense allowed in a hex. Double it up to 16 armies that can be filled (of course with cheapened defensive slot unlocks, as I suggested above). If a guild can afford to fill it troop wise anyways, then this can make sectors a little stickier. Strong guilds and pointers could still probably get through a bunch of them, but maybe not as much as they can do now. Would also allow guilds more opportunity to catch and defend from attacks. We are losing a key defensive strategy with the 4hr calcs, where I feel something like this can help provide more defensive options. It would allow a guild to still attempt a control strategy, while still remaining vulnerable. I think pointers will love it, but maybe they will not be able to do as much damage and get as far as they can now. Smaller guilds should be able to still take the equivalent of 2 full sectors currently, or they can just target the sectors that don't get filled all the way. If you think its too much for the lower ages, then maybe just make it 16 armies in like Progressive on up. Keep the lower ages as more of a looser training ground with the current 8 armies.


I agree that Bronze Age units should not be allowed on the AA map, due to how quickly you can pump em out. You can fill hexs in minutes with BA recruit timers. I think if you really want to stop guilds from farming their own hexs, then upon release, a hex should just be filled with low point fodder. Make a nomadic peasant NPC unit, that will just automatically fill in any released hex of any age with very weak troops, providing very little points. The sector was abandoned, armies scattered, and a bunch of squatters moved in. No matter if the release was just one army or 8, the whole hex just will be filled with 8 full armies of nomadic peasants. Easier to kill then spears. This would prevent pointing off your own hexs, trying to quickly reshield a hex within a few secs, and basically eliminate a lot of NPC strategies. Making it guild vs guild strategies.


So, not the biggest fan of the 4hr calc, but I can roll with it if it happens. Especially if there is a reduction in resource cost and would be cool to balance the lost defensive strategies with more allowed defense in a hex. I do agree it will increase gvg participation and activity though. I also like Dave’s idea with the 96 hour delay of re-entering a map after being removed from it. I think the 4hr calc alone may fix some of the farming your own sectors situation. But I think replacing any released sector should just become a full hex of low point fodder. The rest of the suggested changes from the devs I give the thumbs up to.

I think all of your ideas are good and worthy of consideration. I also think that INNO should offer you a job, because your thoughts and input rival anything they people they are paying now have come up with.

 

[DeletedUser34827]

since you can’t participate in anything while in bronze age i don’t think those troops should be allowed in AA map those who do just want to be able to produce defensive armies in 20 seconds as canon fodder to have more time to break sieges I love it

 

[DeletedUser28124]

Face it, GVG is a joke, and it's a bad product. Full of map glitches that make it impossible to function normally be it at calc or just random times, it NEVER functions correctly, NEVER. Hey INNO, why don't you spend more time on the people using hot key scripts, and using alternate accounts on the same server that even worry about any of this? Nothing suggested by Inno as a a fix here will fix a thing and nothing they decide to do with fix no matter what it is because they are not interested in provided any form of entertaining game play that is not solely designed to end in making money for the company. Thus.. you can take your game and keep destroying it with the non stop layers of stupid you keep trying to sell people until it's dead. Face it, you are not getting any real new customers, just accounts designed to troll others and cheat your garbage systems. At this point you need six people on your GVG team just to do "work arounds" for the glitches at calc. Either dump it entirely or fix it for real, enough of these band aid solutions that you are not even putting any thought into.

 

[DeletedUser40858]

Stopping point farming is the biggest win for point farmers possible. Since they have all ready done the point farming and have the points, the only way to catch them would be to point farm. So they keep their farm points and it's impossible to farm to catch them. Game over.

 

[Emberguard]

The 4hr calc will create issues with troop supply, as others have mentioned.

Just a thought - is this evaluation with or without having Feudal Japan Settlements factored in? The emissaries from cultural settlements can give additional troops and Japan has troops in the time reward bonus buildings

I think all of your ideas are good and worthy of consideration. I also think that INNO should offer you a job, because your thoughts and input rival anything they people they are paying now have come up with.

Well anyones free to apply for a job there if they've got the relevant skillset(s). Who knows, maybe you're talking to the next Dev (if they apply)

 

[DeletedUser37581]

Stopping point farming is the biggest win for point farmers possible. Since they have all ready done the point farming and have the points, the only way to catch them would be to point farm. So they keep their farm points and it's impossible to farm to catch them. Game over.

If you can catch point farmers by point farming (even with their much advanced cities), then you should be able to catch them after point farming is removed by doing whatever it is they do to advance instead of point farming.

 

[DeletedUser]

Stopping point farming is the biggest win for point farmers possible. Since they have all ready done the point farming and have the points, the only way to catch them would be to point farm. So they keep their farm points and it's impossible to farm to catch them. Game over.

Your logic is a little faulty here. Since you are assuming that they already have a points lead (because others have to "catch them"), they would continue to extend that lead should point farming be allowed to continue. Removing point farming means that they would lose the edge that has enabled them to get that lead. At best, if they work hard enough, they can continue to extend their lead but at a much much slower pace. At worst, they will not be good at gaining points the old fashioned way ("earn them") and start to lose that lead and eventually fall behind those who never used point farming or at least never learned to rely on it.

To review:
Keeping point farming = win for point farmers. They keep extending their lead.
Removing or cutting down on point farmers = win for everyone else. It's now a level playing field and actually playing the game may finally enable the hard workers to cut into or eventually eliminate the lead that point farmers now enjoy.

 

[DeletedUser40858]

Thank you for your reply. It's still not correct. Point farming is by far the fastest way to incerase points. Point farmers have had this luxury for years to advance. Now non point farmers will be expected to close that gap with out this advantage and using much lesser means. It will now be easy for the former point farmers to maintain their lead. It's especially a disadvantage for newcomers. They will not stand a chance unless the former point farmers quit. Unless there is a way to make it retroactive and take the farmed points (which I'm sure is impossible ) this remains a huge win for point farmers. If I was a point farmer and gained a 100,000,000 point lead, I would want it to be prevented so I could sit back and enjoy my lead easily.

 

[DeletedUser40858]

If you can catch point farmers by point farming (even with their much advanced cities), then you should be able to catch them after point farming is removed by doing whatever it is they do to advance instead of point farming.

I understand what you are trying to say. But with lesser means to gain points you will be gaining much much slower. Even if your out playing the former point farmer.

 

[DeletedUser40858]

Your logic is a little faulty here. Since you are assuming that they already have a points lead (because others have to "catch them"), they would continue to extend that lead should point farming be allowed to continue. Removing point farming means that they would lose the edge that has enabled them to get that lead. At best, if they work hard enough, they can continue to extend their lead but at a much much slower pace. At worst, they will not be good at gaining points the old fashioned way ("earn them") and start to lose that lead and eventually fall behind those who never used point farming or at least never learned to rely on it.

To review:
Keeping point farming = win for point farmers. They keep extending their lead.
Removing or cutting down on point farmers = win for everyone else. It's now a level playing field and actually playing the game may finally enable the hard workers to cut into or eventually eliminate the lead that point farmers now enjoy.

Let me try to give an example of my point. Let's say we are in a car race where some cars were using less ethical means to go 100 miles an hour while the others max out at 20. Now travel at this pace for 2 years and then put governors on the vehicles to keep them all from going over 20. Even if the car that was going 100 is now only going half the speed of the others and going 10 miles an hour it would take 16 years to catch what he did in 2. I know these numbers don't equal what's going on with point farming but they do elaborate my point. I'm not a fan of point farming. I just beleive that if you can't make it retroactive then your fix is really a win for the point farmer. Unless your counting on them being completely stupid which I don't beleive they are as they figured out how to point farm and now they will figure out the big advantage this new rule really gives them.

 

[DeletedUser]

Point farmers have had this luxury for years to advance. Now non point farmers will be expected to close that gap with out this advantage and using much lesser means. It will now be easy for the former point farmers to maintain their lead. It's especially a disadvantage for newcomers.

Yes, they have had this luxury for years. And they have it down to a science. And if nothing is done, they will continue to increase the gap because they have more experience and know exactly what they're doing. You're ignoring the fact that current players that don't point farm aren't likely to start, so leaving it as is makes it literally impossible for non-point farmers to compete with regards to ranking points. And the current system is really disadvantageous for newcomers, because by the time they get up to speed on point farming, the current point farmers will have exponentially increased the gap. Again, literally impossible for newcomers under the current system of allowing point farming to compete.

They will not stand a chance unless the former point farmers quit.

As is the case now.

Unless there is a way to make it retroactive and take the farmed points (which I'm sure is impossible ) this remains a huge win for point farmers.

Well, they could change the ranking points formula, they've done that once before. I doubt that they'd do it for this, but it isn't completely impossible.

The reason your logic is faulty is that you are arguing to keep the current system, and that's the very system where the point farmers got their lead in ranking points. It's not a win for them to get rid of the system that gives them an advantage, no matter how you try to argue that it is.

 

[Agent327]

Thank you for your reply. It's still not correct. Point farming is by far the fastest way to incerase points. Point farmers have had this luxury for years to advance. Now non point farmers will be expected to close that gap with out this advantage and using much lesser means. It will now be easy for the former point farmers to maintain their lead. It's especially a disadvantage for newcomers. They will not stand a chance unless the former point farmers quit. Unless there is a way to make it retroactive and take the farmed points (which I'm sure is impossible ) this remains a huge win for point farmers. If I was a point farmer and gained a 100,000,000 point lead, I would want it to be prevented so I could sit back and enjoy my lead easily.

Did you ever consider how ill thought this comment is? With or without pointfarming, players have the same options so closing the gap does not depend on that

 

[DeletedUser]

Let me try to give an example of my point. Let's say we are in a car race where some cars were using less ethical means to go 100 miles an hour while the others max out at 20. Now travel at this pace for 2 years and then put governors on the vehicles to keep them all from going over 20. Even if the car that was going 100 is now only going half the speed of the others and going 10 miles an hour it would take 16 years to catch what he did in 2. I know these numbers don't equal what's going on with point farming but they do elaborate my point.

Actually, they defeat your point. After 16 years:
Eliminate point farming=all caught up.
Leave point farming alone=16 years added to gap, now would take 128 years to catch up if they finally eliminated point farming.
See how "Leave point farming alone" is better for the point farmers? Yeah, that's the win for them, not eliminating it.

 

[DeletedUser40858]

Yes, they have had this luxury for years. And they have it down to a science. And if nothing is done, they will continue to increase the gap because they have more experience and know exactly what they're doing. You're ignoring the fact that current players that don't point farm aren't likely to start, so leaving it as is makes it literally impossible for non-point farmers to compete with regards to ranking points. And the current system is really disadvantageous for newcomers, because by the time they get up to speed on point farming, the current point farmers will have exponentially increased the gap. Again, literally impossible for newcomers under the current system of allowing point farming to compete.

As is the case now.

Well, they could change the ranking points formula, they've done that once before. I doubt that they'd do it for this, but it isn't completely impossible.

The reason your logic is faulty is that you are arguing to keep the current system, and that's the very system where the point farmers got their lead in ranking points. It's not a win for them to get rid of the system that gives them an advantage, no matter how you try to argue that it is.

 

[DeletedUser40852]

Let me try to give an example of my point. Let's say we are in a car race where some cars were using less ethical means to go 100 miles an hour while the others max out at 20. Now travel at this pace for 2 years and then put governors on the vehicles to keep them all from going over 20. Even if the car that was going 100 is now only going half the speed of the others and going 10 miles an hour it would take 16 years to catch what he did in 2. I know these numbers don't equal what's going on with point farming but they do elaborate my point. I'm not a fan of point farming. I just beleive that if you can't make it retroactive then your fix is really a win for the point farmer. Unless your counting on them being completely stupid which I don't beleive they are as they figured out how to point farm and now they will figure out the big advantage this new rule really gives them.

Great analogy but leaving things as is will allow the same cars to continue doing 100 miles an hour, furthering the existing gap. Fixing this will keep them ahead a long time yes, but the hope is that the newer cars (higher age units as the next ages come out) will go faster (give more battle points) and provide an ability to catch up without point farming.

If you have thoughts on a retroactive fix, I'd love to hear it, some point farmers don't just point farm champs, as someone that mentioned earlier in this thread, a full SAM filled sector is basically candy to anyone with a high A/D.

 

[DeletedUser40858]

For your reply to be true and correct and in making your point you have to admit that it's going to take multitudes longer to fill the gap they created by point farming. And my ultimate point being if it's not retroactive then it is a win for them. They get to keep the points that will take many times longer for others to make. Stopping point farming may be one step in the right direction but the damage is done.

Great analogy but leaving things as is will allow the same cars to continue doing 100 miles an hour, furthering the existing gap. Fixing this will keep them ahead a long time yes, but the hope is that the newer cars (higher age units as the next ages come out) will go faster (give more battle points) and provide an ability to catch up without point farming.

If you have thoughts on a retroactive fix, I'd love to hear it, some point farmers don't just point farm champs, as someone that mentioned earlier in this thread, a full SAM filled sector is basically candy to anyone with a high A/D.

Best reply on here so far.


I do agree with stopping it. I just don't know how it would be possible to make it retroactive and undo the damage already done. If it cant be done then a 100,000,000 point plus comfortable lead that the farmer gets to keep will keep them out in front with farmed points. Someone else said it may be possible. Way to technical for me there.

I definitely don't think point farming should be left alone. I never said that. My point is that if it cant be retroactive then it does not fix the problem. Dulls it at best.

A point farmer only has to worry about another point farmer more dedicated than them at it coming along and passing them. If they get to keep the gap they created and the system changes. They don't have to worry about a point farmer coming along and passing them. And no other system is going to pass them, so if they don't lose the lead they gained from it I still see it as a win for them.

Did you ever consider how ill thought this comment is? With or without pointfarming, players have the same options so closing the gap does not depend on that

A point farmer only has to worry about a more dedicated point farmer catching them. They get to keep their lead and have no worry of a more dedicated point farmer catching them. Without losing the points already gained from point farming, they don't have to worry about being caught now.

 

[DeletedUser40804]

Well, they could change the ranking points formula, they've done that once before. I doubt that they'd do it for this, but it isn't completely impossible.

Why wouldn’t this be a logical addition to doing away with champ farming. Where is the logic in saying it’s needs to be stopped but allowing 100+ million farmed points to stay on those who inflated their point values using it. It leaves the ones who have always viewed it as cheating and not farmed points at a disadvantage in rankings. This makes it still a win for cheating points. Changing the champ farmed points with the fix would be the only way to correct the ranking system.

As for the 4 hour reset change. It’s not popular on here but I like the idea of sheilds gone after 4 hours. It’s not the end of gvg. You just have to work a little more if you want to control a lot. It will allow more people to do gvg who can’t because they get on and it’s all locked until tomorrow. It don’t just benefit the ones who hit reset lock up map and repeat tomorrow. It also doesn’t only benefit the guilds who can field big numbers 20 minutes a day. It would benefit guilds who have consistency in fighters during more of the day. It will also benefit the fighters who can take land from a couple of other fighters because everyone won’t make every reset. I like fighting so 4 hours and shields drop sounds good to me. Guilds will adapt. People say a guild can’t take the goods cost of 4 hour resets. If your guild has this problem you’re to big or you need to defend yourself because the guild taking your sectors had goods. If you want it bad enough take it back in 4 hours. If you’re worried about someone running the map for points then don’t fill them. If your worried about someone taking over a map in a day then the goods demand will solve this problem for you. The drops won’t update with the reset for exactly this reason I would assume.

 

[Algona]

Why wouldn’t this be a logical addition to doing away with champ farming. Where is the logic in saying it’s needs to be stopped but allowing 100+ million farmed points to stay on those who inflated their point values using it. It

Because the last time INNO changed the RP calculations and changed RPs accordingly so many people went into spasms of whining, leaving, boycotting, and all sorts of other overreactions.

I don't understand why a lot of people put a lot into RP: Emotional attachment, money, game effort, even cheating for something that has no effect in game whatsoever.

It's kinda the same thing that so many in this thread are going through in reverse. They want RP calculations changed because they can't / won;t do the Champ farming thing for whatever reason. There's more angst about RP then any other change proposed.

All for a meaningless stat. BUT! Just because the stat is meaningless in game, it oes not mean it;s meaningless to players. Took me a long time to apprecaite that RP is important to folk. Doubt I'll ever understand why.

 

[DeletedUser40804]

Because the last time INNO changed the RP calculations and changed RPs accordingly so many people went into spasms of whining, leaving, boycotting, and all sorts of other overreactions.

I don't understand why a lot of people put a lot into RP: Emotional attachment, money, game effort, even cheating for something that has no effect in game whatsoever.

It's kinda the same thing that so many in this thread are going through in reverse. They want RP calculations changed because they can't / won;t do the Champ farming thing for whatever reason. There's more angst about RP then any other change proposed.

All for a meaningless stat. BUT! Just because the stat is meaningless in game, it oes not mean it;s meaningless to players. Took me a long time to apprecaite that RP is important to folk. Doubt I'll ever understand why.

Rank points matter to people who champ farm for certain. It’s the only reason to do it. I think also to others because it is the only real way of seeing how you line up with others on your world. More effort on aging up, building up GBs, and fighting. I care about my points but I won’t champ farm because there’s something pathetic about having to fight your own troops somewhere protected in AA. Being able to plow points without troop losses. So you can get to the top and look better than you are. I have found the best way to stop champ farming is to take their land holdings. Works like a charm. To fix champ farming you don’t need to make them a different troop or adjust siege costs for sectors. You can just make champions worth no points like rogues. That can adjust everyone across the board weather you are a farmer or not. It’s fair to anyone who has gained any amount of points off champions. That also fixes the idea that two guilds can border and farm each other without dropping sectors.

 

[Algona]

Rank points matter to people who champ farm for certain. It’s the only reason to do it. I think also to others because it is the only real way of seeing how you line up with others on your world. More effort on aging up, building up GBs, and fighting. I care about my points but I won’t champ farm because there’s something pathetic about having to fight your own troops somewhere protected in AA. Being able to plow points without troop losses. So you can get to the top and look better than you are. I have found the best way to stop champ farming is to take their land holdings. Works like a charm. To fix champ farming you don’t need to make them a different troop or adjust siege costs for sectors. You can just make champions worth no points like rogues. That can adjust everyone across the board weather you are a farmer or not. It’s fair to anyone who has gained any amount of points off champions. That also fixes the idea that two guilds can border and farm each other without dropping sectors.

Which confirms what I said. Some folk care a lot about RP even though it's meaningless in game. Which means INNO has to be very careful about adjusting folks RPs as demonstrated last time INNO adjusted RPs.