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[Question] GvG

Algona

Well-Known Member
How did a post about a guy asking why gvg is not in phones go to a full scale global chat

GvG is a subject players are passionate about.

Sorry new to forums, can you please post a link or explain the "reasoning".

I'm not sure INNO's reasoning is anywhere near as important as the bald fact that INNO's last official word was they would no longer work in GvG.

But, hey, who am I to deprave, err, I mean deprive you if you want the agony, err, I mean, pleasure of finding out for yourself.

Please, please, please note that each one of the Announcements you'll see had a linked Official Feedback thread. For real brain rot, read those as well. Take this thread and multiply by 6 more threads each as long or a lot longer then this thread.

Read at your own risk, I refuse all responsibility for the damage it will cause.

Instead of posting a half dozen linke, let's try this instead.


that should be page 3 of the Announcements subforum. Scroll down to the thread Guild Battlegrounds from Apr 24 2019.

Read that first, then scroll upwards to read a half dozen or so different Announcements about GBG and GvG. .

You'll have to navigate to page two of the Announcement subforum.

Let me know if that didn't work. Good luck!
 
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PASSINGTHRU

New Member
How many times do I have to point this out. THE HEAD GAME DEVELOPER WHO HAD THE PASSION FOR GVG DIED. ANY FUTURE FOR GVG DIED WITH HIM. Just be thankful you can still access it on PC for now. Sheesh.
(Oh, and to be precise, GvG is the "funnest" part of the game for you. Not for everyone. That's why less than 5% of active players even bother with it.)
Ohhh that's a pretty major impact to the game. My favorite part of the game, the single aspect of this game which has kept me engaged for the last year and a half is GvG. I have bought probably $1000-$15000 in diamonds in the last year to get extra buildings in events to build my attack and add attack defense so I could perform at a higher level in GvG. When did he die? My condolences to the family. I do not remember receiving a notification in the "official" message center that the "THE HEAD GAME DEVELOPER WHO HAD THE PASSION FOR GVG DIED. ANY FUTURE FOR GVG DIED WITH HIM" If so I would have not spent $ to improve my gvg capabilities on a dead aspect of the game. I most likely would have quit or at
least played a lot more casual. If GvG is dead as far as inno is concerned they need to make that known. I kind of feel like I got robbed, this is like a Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme...
 
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Algona

Well-Known Member
I most likely would have quit or at he least played a lot more casual. If GvG is dead as far as inno is concerned

It looks like you started serious play about a year after INNO first said they were going to stop working on GvG. See my previous post.

You might want to ask the folks who taught you GvG the same question though. Leastwise I've always thought it was a responsibility of Guild Leadership to keep the Guild apprised of what's going on with the state of the game. Maybe I'm in a minority in that belief?
 

Tannerite2

Member
When did he die? My condolences to the family. I do not remember receiving a notification in the "official" message center that the "THE HEAD GAME DEVELOPER WHO HAD THE PASSION FOR GVG DIED. ANY FUTURE FOR GVG DIED WITH HIM" If so I would have not spent $ to improve my gvg capabilities on a dead aspect of the game. I most likely would have quit or at

He died in 2015 I believe. There was an event where you could receive the Speaker's corner and a portrait of him. I have heard for years that GvG won't be updated or ported to mobile because it's too expensive to figure out the code.
 

wolfhoundtoo

Well-Known Member
Thats odd, considering agent was the first to respond to a po

Ohhh that's a pretty major impact to the game. My favorite part of the game, the single aspect of this game which has kept me engaged for the last year and a half is GvG. I have bought probably $1000-$15000 in diamonds in the last year to get extra buildings in events to build my attack and add attack defense so I could perform at a higher level in GvG. When did he die? My condolences to the family. I do not remember receiving a notification in the "official" message center that the "THE HEAD GAME DEVELOPER WHO HAD THE PASSION FOR GVG DIED. ANY FUTURE FOR GVG DIED WITH HIM" If so I would have not spent $ to improve my gvg capabilities on a dead aspect of the game. I most likely would have quit or at
least played a lot more casual. If GvG is dead as far as inno is concerned they need to make that known. I kind of feel like I got robbed, this is like a Bernie Madoff Ponzi scheme...


As demonstrated by this thread, had you come to the forum you would of surely come across or been provided this information had you inquired. As for any future of GVG it makes no difference. You had ample opportunity to become familiar with how it currently worked when you joined and now you know it will stay the same. No one from Inno has said GVG will be ending before FOE ends it's just outright speculation on the part of people who don't know. The only thing you should be concerned with is when you spend your money did you have fun with the benefits you got from it? If the answer is no that's not the fault of GVG's future. If the answer is yes then you got what you wanted and had your fun. No where is anything in FOE guaranteed to be 'forever'.

And you didn't spend your money on a dead aspect because most of what you presumably got to boost your GVG has uses in other aspects of the game. If those don't appeal to you that's still on you. You weren't sold anything. When you spend money on this game the only thing you are guaranteed is whatever benefit those diamonds can get you which for the most part is just some extra chances to win game items that you desired. If you don't understand that then you then you definitely don't understand FOE.

In addition (assuming the estimate of your timing in playing FOE is accurate) you joined well after the decision was made and announced. What were you expecting a personal add on to the TOS telling you that parts of the game might not be developed any further?
 
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Sorry to post an on-topic , but can someone please explain to me what the point of GvG is?

As far as I can tell, sectors return relatively few guild power points compared to a Statue of Honour, the only advantage I can find is in individual battle points which can be handy for the PvP tower contest and possibly bragging rights - each sector requiring a minimum of 10 battles to capture.

GBG in contrast offers lots of individual rewards, and potentially significant guild power points.

I feel I must have missed something, quite plausible as it took me 7 months to work out how to play GvG!
 

Emberguard

Well-Known Member
but can someone please explain to me what the point of GvG is?
Point 1: Crowns
Depending on the competition you may be able to get away with minimal expense to secure some small amount of passive crown income that you don't have to worry that much about. If you're really into GvG it won't be minimal expense, but you can get some significant returns

Point 2: Fun
Who doesn't like fun?

Point 3: Ranking.
 

Agent327

Well-Known Member
This is the "US" server, if I'm not mistaken. Pretty straight forward. Pat is on a Worldwide platform. You can be salty about it, or understand there is a difference in audience.

So Pat is on a worldwide platform, but cause this is the "US" server I can not be? Because I am a mod here I am limited to this server and not allowed to use other platforms?


So - Forge Fans shouldn't be surveyed? Hmm. Seems suspect to me - sort of limits your survey pool, ya know?

Is that what I said? I suggest you read it again.

Well... frankly, you kinda self identified here, honestly. Pat didn't name you.

How is quoting me not naming me?

That's specifically what he said... "has absolutely no relevance" which means, it's not cause and effect.

It isn't what he said. He is insinuating that players that are active on the forum, are out of touch with the game. Are not playing on a high level and are not "good at the game". He still has not explained when you are "good at the game".

So... As some of the most active GVGers on Korch - you don't think there's a need for them to show up and discuss things on the GVG forum thread? I guess you guys have all the insight and opinions that are "needed". Certainly wouldn't want to add a few more people into the conversation... would we?

Sure I can understand that. That is a valid reason, but it does leave me with the question why now? Where were you on all the other GvG discussions that could have needed your input. Why now?

Sorry new to forums, can you please post a link or explain the "reasoning". Still trying to learn to navigate forums and not sure I have weeks to dedicate searching the archives to find the answer to the question. However I would appreciate your assistance in this matter. Thanks in advance.

Sure, since you are new to the forums no problem at all.

There are two ways to go about this.

First way, you use the search function. You select the tab Search threads. Use "Battlegrounds" as keyword and you set it to search in the Announcements forum. You will get 3 pages of results, but it is easy to find the thread that says Guild Battlegrounds.


The other way is you just look at the forum front page and the headers. You will see the header Announcements. Open that forum section and start scrolling till you find the announcement you need. Might be on the second page. I prefer the method using the search.


Hope this helps!
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
He died in 2015 I believe. There was an event where you could receive the Speaker's corner and a portrait of him. I have heard for years that GvG won't be updated or ported to mobile because it's too expensive to figure out the code.
You've heard, but it's incorrect. Try reading the original announcement mentioned numerous times on this thread. But I guess A) It's too much trouble and B) it blows what you just said apart, so it's easier to be willfully ignorant and argue from there.
 

Taeshire

Member
Some irrelevant stuff

Agent, I thought we had collectively come to the conclusion that you don't play GvG, and clearly don't know enough about GvG to have a valid opinion on it?

Let me use n true life analogy -

When my son was a toddler, he wouldn't eat anything green, no broccoli, no peas, no spinach, no kale nothing like that.
We persevered because we knew it was good for him, and the childish behaviour wouldn't last forever.
Skip forward 20 years, my son is now 23, he now knows better, one of his favourite veggies is broccoli, is delighted when he gets it as part of his dinner, even asks for it when my wife making certain dishes. Still isn't keen on Kale though, but the difference between him now and as a toddler, is it's not because its green!

When you develop your city, do some research, understand GvG, and take part in GVG properly you may well appreciate it. On the other hand there's always a chance that you might still not like it cause it's green!
 
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iPenguinPat

Well-Known Member
There seems to be some misunderstanding about where I stand on this topic and what my complaints are.

1) A player said that GVG should be removed because he/she doesn't like it, and that GBG rewards make it better. https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/gvg.41600/post-354727

As someone that enjoys GVG, I pointed out that some players enjoy GVG and find it to be the most fun part of the game. The person I replied specifically asked why anyone would prefer it. I gave the answer as to why I personally prefer it. Obviously, that’s not speaking for everyone because fun is subjective. I also pointed out that the rewards don't motivate me. Guild rank/leaderboard doesn't motivate him. That's fine. we can play our own way. I never suggested removing GBG from the game. I do think there are aspects of GBG that could be improved, the rewards system being one of them; however, that's more about balance and catalyzing competition. (I’m also a very active participant in GBG at a very competitive level which will come up again later)

I also acknowledged gvg isn't perfect and that on many servers is dead. I can imagine in that case it would not be as much fun as GBG or other things.

2) A player brought up the 5% stat as an argument against gvg being fun and why gvg hasn't been ported.

I pointed out that there are some major access issues with gvg (browser only). I also mentioned that gbg participation is driven by rewards, not fun. Furthermore, I mentioned that segments matter.

To elaborate, GVG has next to nothing to promote it or bring new players to it except players that already GVG (therefore promoting GVG similar to how GBG and GE are promoted would increase awareness and likely participation).
Inno DOES tell players about every other feature or have some sort of building in their city making them all quite visible, so users would have no reason to believe there is a feature they are missing.
Trusted rights are required to siege, therefore players have very little opportunity to stumble into playing GVG. Even if a PC player clicks the GvG button, there’s no tutorial on how to play, and it’s not self-explanatory. It really takes someone that already does GVG to introduce it.
There are no rewards for GVG, so it primarily draws competitive players (therefore adding individual rewards would increase participation).
--- Coincidentally, whales are well known to be competitive and spend money to win/be at the top of leaderboards. Depending on your source, 0.15% of players generate 50% of f2p game revenue. It is mission-critical to know what % of whales are in that 5%. Obvi inno decided that keeping GVG browser only is enough to keep existing whales on board. Cool.
Inno has not made sufficient (any?) effort to curb cheating (both macros and alt usage). Both of which have been cited as reasons for either uncompetitive servers and/or players quitting GVG and Forge.

GVG does also have a higher barrier for entry than other features. Prior to GE, GBG, and all the crazy power creep, players would have a hard time sustaining the unit cost, etc, so that was a limiting factor. On our server, we've had a major uptick in GVG activity and participation since GBG opened because more players have become competitive about guild rankings. Even with 50-75% of AA closed, every night dozens of guilds find ways to fight all over every map. I'd invite players to visit US10 at recalc if they want to see some GVG action.

Bottom line: the 5% might be true, but it's a bit of a red herring with respect to why inno didn't port. It is an especially poor measure of fun.

3) Rather than just going with an anecdotal "gut" feeling, I did a couple of surveys with respectable sample sizes. 700 and 1000 are considered very normal for surveys even when looking at 10M's of people. I have actual real-world data to back up my claim that rewards motivate GBG players. My data is from Forge fans.

My source was then nitpicked and discredited even though it's the most scientific piece of data anyone this side of inno has available (that I'm aware of). Rather than acknowledging the source and putting some context as to how that might move the data, naysayers just throw it out the window. That's not discussion or debate. That's not building the community. It's literally not accepting something you don't like.

Was it a bit of a leap to say that nearly half don't play for fun and they only play for rewards? A little. There was an opinion for "fun" that was only at 7%... I didn't even mention it at the time. The clear takeaway is fun is not the *main* participation factor for GBG.

Further/better questioning would be useful. These aren't questions inno is even asking (at least they haven't asked me or anyone i know). But it does make it clear that you can't separate the rewards (or lack thereof) from participation (or lack thereof). Rewards are clearly driving participation is my point.
 

iPenguinPat

Well-Known Member
4) I am calling out many of the forum regulars for bullying players, and I stand by that. I get along great with many players that hold different opinions than me. Just ask anyone that's built a blue galaxy (HT crew is rofl now). What some players do is not debate or discussion. It's nitpicking and playing gotcha games. Saying things like “nice try” only serve to foster hostility and negativity. It's exhausting having to word everything perfectly as to not get "gotcha-ed" .. it doesn't build the community. It's nothing but red herrings and avoiding the discussion.

Most people/players aren’t coming to the forums expecting to have to word everything perfectly to share their thoughts; this is a game, not a doctoral dissertation defense. We also don't know what we don't know. How are we supposed to search for something that we don't even know exists (i.e. Anwar's death is a good example of this). Instead of looking for the gotcha, to build the community, wouldn't it make more sense to try to respond to the obviously intended meaning or post a link since you probably know exactly what to search to find it? If it's unclear what the person means, just ask.

5) I don't think I hit the good player/bad play button, but I might have. I'm looking more at activity level and participation. A player with few or no high-level GBs and a minimal number of fights obviously isn't active at a competitive level. They obviously aren't using the features we're talking about in a significant way. Unless their intention is to start using those features, the extreme majority of changes to those features wouldn't even affect them.

... It doesn't make sense as a business to take focus on feedback from a player that doesn't use a feature on how to improve it. It DOES make sense for the players using the feature the most to have the most weight in the feedback being given. Again, if someone that isn't using the feature plans to start using it, then their feedback is extremely useful because it would increase participation and possibly give insight on how to further reach a new/different audience with that feature.

Back on the GVG improvement update thread(s) in 2019, players that don't GVG and had no intention of doing GVG raided the thread and argued with experienced GVG players about the validity of the feedback being given. On most, if not all contested points, we were right and the non-gvg players were mistaken. In fact, several of the points made about GVG mapped over to GBG and became issues (i.e. 4hr opening being bad for unit sustainability, treasury management, power consolidation, NAPS, and lack of competition) Again, message me if you want links/screenshots.

Bottom line - play how you want. But if you're not using a feature, please don't rain on our parade. It’s not your duty to hammer down every single player that hopes/asks inno to change something about a feature of the game they utilize. I only come here to defend the parts of the game i enjoy and sometimes to give feedback on new features with hopes of keeping the game moving forward in a positive direction that i find to be fun to play (self-motivated, absolutely! Do I think that others would agree with me? Yes. That said, I'd give up something that benefited me if it did, in fact, improve the community. For example, being able to close the AA beach probably should not be a thing.)

6) I have nothing against people that use the forums. More power to you. Doesn't make you good or bad. Do I think it's unhealthy for the game that a small group of players will bully others off the forum if they don't agree? Yes, I do. Do I think that forum users that play the game casually should give more active users more space to contribute (i.e. do not reply to every message on every thread discussing the topic to rebuttal or white knight for inno)? Yes, I do. Is that happening? Not really. Examples coming to mind quickly include GVG discussion(s) and the 2000 abort discussion, however, I can cite more examples.

(If you are a forum regular and just thought to yourself that you can prove me wrong and that you don't dominate the conversation and force your view on others, you just proved my point. Thank you!)

I can give more examples, links etc. PM me if you want them.
 
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iPenguinPat

Well-Known Member
Inno can do what they want.
It's inno's game.
This is what inno decided.
Read the announcement.
Inno shouldn't change the game just because I want it that way.
Search the forums.

Hopefully, I covered them all. (Nice Try)

7) “Inno has the numbers” so they know everything is a common point that regulars here make. You're not wrong about having amazing user behavior data*. They have all kinds of data about how to make money from events, settlements, gbg, and a plethora of other features. Watching Anwar’s presentation on how inno monetizes Forge was fascinating, although not really anything new or surprising.

What they are not good at is predicting how the most active/competitive players will interact with or respond to new things that are released. CF/RQs, The Arc, the SAAB/SAV battle RQs, GBG farming, flying noob trap, pvp arena, removing the pvp tower, adding a delay on abort (I'm not completely convinced this was a mistake, but they did walk it back), etc. are all examples where Inno did not do a good job of understanding what the competitive player base would do. Active/competitive players regularly make comments about how inno must not play their own game for a reason.

Just because inno knows what they currently have doesn't mean it can't be better - a point that seems lost in discussion often. I'll give an in-game example - for the longest time, fp/day was the holy grail of all FOE things. People recommend leveling cape early, and hagia, and all these other FP buildings. When I came alone, I saw a different way to approach the early growth/development part of the game. Did it take more effort/time? Yes. Did it allow me to grow faster than even whale diamond spenders? Yes, it did. (I made top 10 in way less than 2 years on a 6yo server, pre gbg/saab RQs)

Now, a lot of the things I (we) was doing before GBG came out and power creep took off have started to become mainstream for competitive players. While the fp/day focus playstyle was effective and faster than most other alternatives - I/we came up with an approach that was even better because we took different meanings from the data and saw an opportunity to do things differently. (btw, that's also what I do for a living - help businesses grow faster and become more profitable and be sustainable - at a lower cost than more traditional "status quo" methods. (This approach got the name growth hacking by others that do the same type of thing.)

A quick example how inno might not be using data well. (this is entirely made up as an example to demonstrate how even good data can give bad conclusions).

Innos looks and finds that 50% of dolphin/whale diamond buyers play GVG, but 98% of diamond buyers play GBG - and they play it A LOT. Inno could conclude that GBG has been a sufficient replacement for GVG, and that players are happy with the new feature.

Meanwhile - some significant percentage of those players hate GBG have this opinion of it: "GBG is sucking the living life of everything in this game and is the destroyer of worlds, worse than galactus." (seems suspiciously real, huh?) - but they play because it has become a requirement for competitive players to remain competitive. And the amount of time spent is only because that's what's required to be competitive/win.

In that case - inno's conclusion that GBG is a great replacement for GVG would be wrong. The usage data clearly looks like GBG is doing awesome, but in reality, players hate it and are resentful of having to spend so much time doing it. (This is a fairly commonly held pov, btw. Not just my own)

Without doing surveys or having a dialog with players, their data would have to lead them to the wrong conclusion. And even if they are making a zillion dollars from GBG right now, is that sustainable? How will it affect their 5-year earnings if a huge portion of players quit?

The point being, Inno isn't surveying players (none that I'm aware of at least) about their experience in-game with GBG, GVG, etc etc etc. I just got a popup asking if I was enjoying the game. I said no, and it sent me to support or the forums. Both have been useless for addressing major issues I’ve brought up. Forge has an amazing foundation to drive revenue and could screw up 90% of everything they do moving forward and keep making profits.

I’m not saying any of the things mentioned are make or break or that inno is at risk of going under. I do believe that feedback and interaction with customers is important for understanding how to best serve them. When a small group of players regularly enforce status quo and shame players for wanting things different or not knowing what's happened in the past, it can really suppress issues and “wants” that are bubbling under the surface to inno's loss (and player's loss too, for that matter).

Back to OP for closing – Algona’s post was what I consider to be the best and most useful on the topic https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/gvg.41600/post-354942

I have some interesting info about mobile gvg that I can’t share here due to forum rules. Feel free to PM if you’re interested.

Could a focus group of active gvg leaders work out solutions to address most/all of the objections? Absolutely. Inno won’t ask, and regulars here won’t let the discussion about what "could be" occur naturally. Would enough support behind GVG change inno’s tune? Impossible to say. People/businesses change their minds when presented with the right data all the time. Between the DSL and regulars openly hunting down and smothering GVG threads, Inno is missing out on really great feedback about a feature that might be refreshed/repackaged and turned into profit.
 
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Agent327

Well-Known Member
Agent, I thought we had collectively come to the conclusion that you don't play GvG, and clearly don't know enough about GvG to have a valid opinion on it?

If you quote me, at least have the decency to do it right. Nowhere do I use those words in the post you are quoting.

When you develop your city, do some research, understand GvG, and take part in GVG properly you may well appreciate it. On the other hand there's always a chance that you might still not like it cause it's green!

Another bunch of assumptions and insinuations. You have no idea what my city looks like. You have no idea how much research I have done. You do not know if I understand GvG or take part in it. Only thing you might think you know is that I do not appreciate it, which is a bit far fetched. I just do not think it is special.
 

iPenguinPat

Well-Known Member
You've heard, but it's incorrect. Try reading the original announcement mentioned numerous times on this thread. But I guess A) It's too much trouble and B) it blows what you just said apart, so it's easier to be willfully ignorant and argue from there.

Please tell a player that's been here less than 6 months how he's supposed to know what to search in the first place? I know for regulars here, these type of things are trivial. For a lot of players, this is brand new news. fwiw, I don't believe the announcement is ever linked to - only referenced - I wouldn't know which one to look for or to search for and I've been involved off and on in gvg discussion for 2 years now. How is this helping build the community and encouraging someone to participate? Would it be better if only the regulars posted here and all new players stopped?

I've read a lot of your posts and often see your point, even if I don't agree. It just stinks that someone that's clearly intelligent like you goes with a response like this instead of being helpful and showing him.

It's not like you all don't know the common questions that come up. You could make a post and reference it to save yourself time. You can keep a notepad with links. Why not be better than this?
 
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Agent327

Well-Known Member
4) I am calling out many of the forum regulars for bullying players, and I stand by that. I get along great with many players that hold different opinions than me. Just ask anyone that's built a blue galaxy (HT crew is rofl now). What some players do is not debate or discussion. It's nitpicking and playing gotcha games. Saying things like “nice try” only serve to foster hostility and negativity. It's exhausting having to word everything perfectly as to not get "gotcha-ed" .. it doesn't build the community. It's nothing but red herrings and avoiding the discussion.

I am not going to address everything, so let me just ask you this.

How does it build a community if you and your back-up crew come to the forum and almost immediately claim that posters on the forum, do not know the game, have not researched the game, do not know GvG and are not competetive in the game. Only you and your crew know what they are talking about and the regular forum posters are just here to disrupt your well meant advice. Isn't that bullying as well?

You say you did not say anything about good player/bad player. You are looking more at activity level and participation. A player with few or no high level GBs and a minimal number of fights obviously isn't active at a competitive level.

So tell me, how many high level GB's or fights is needed to be competetive? No, scratch that. Tell me how many I have that makes me not competetive. Really looking forward to your answer. Doubt I will get one.
 

Taeshire

Member
If you quote me, at least have the decency to do it right. Nowhere do I use those words in the post you are quoting.



Another bunch of assumptions and insinuations. You have no idea what my city looks like. You have no idea how much research I have done. You do not know if I understand GvG or take part in it. Only thing you might think you know is that I do not appreciate it, which is a bit far fetched. I just do not think it is special.

There.....

Your example of the unassailable GvG sector told me all I needed to know with regard to your knowledge of GvG.........
 

Graviton

Well-Known Member
This is exactly my point. No dialog about things of substance.

My favorite part of "dialog" is when one attempts to dismiss every opinion that doesn't align with one's own, and then one wraps up one's repetitious litany of accusations and assumptions with a pre-emptive dismissal of any potential rebuttal: "If you are a forum regular and just thought to yourself that you can prove me wrong and that you don't dominate the conversation and force your view on others, you just proved my point."

"Dialog".
 

iPenguinPat

Well-Known Member
My favorite part of "dialog" is when one attempts to dismiss every opinion that doesn't align with one's own, and then one wraps up one's repetitious litany of accusations and assumptions with a pre-emptive dismissal of any potential rebuttal: "If you are a forum regular and just thought to yourself that you can prove me wrong and that you don't dominate the conversation and force your view on others, you just proved my point."

"Dialog".

"Gotcha!"
 
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