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how many have gotten the covid vaccine yet?

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Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
That's a bit overwrought. They're not a problem if they never get infected, and even if they do, they're not a problem to anyone who has been vaccinated. They're only potentially a problem to themselves.
Go ahead, ignore science in favor of your own brand of "logic". I don't think you realize it, but this isn't a perfect world. Even things with 95-99% success still fail occasionally. Just ask any woman who got pregnant despite using contraception. Yes, it happens.
 

icarusethan

Active Member
That's a bit overwrought. They're not a problem if they never get infected, and even if they do, they're not a problem to anyone who has been vaccinated. They're only potentially a problem to themselves.
no sir, at the time I post this, the whole Us got 34.2% of the population vaccinated, which means you, or whoever believes they gonna be fine has a 65.8% chance to encounter someone who didn't get the vaccine when you go out for daily activities. And that right there is the problem. Covid started with a way smaller group and now its all over the country. What makes you think 65.8% of the population as potential spreaders is just gonna be a problem for themselves. They gonna have covid spreader only plane or covid spreader only restaurant or something?
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
no sir, at the time I post this, the whole Us got 34.2% of the population vaccinated, which means you, or whoever believes they gonna be fine has a 65.8% chance to encounter someone who didn't get the vaccine when you go out for daily activities. And that right there is the problem. Covid started with a way smaller group and now its all over the country. What makes you think 65.8% of the population as potential spreaders is just gonna be a problem for themselves. They gonna have covid spreader only plane or covid spreader only restaurant or something?
I don't understand, if the vaccine works, anyone who is vaccinated is protected. Who cares about the potential spreaders passing it to other potential spreaders? Eventually enough of the non vaccinated will get sick to achieve herd immunity. In the meantime, those who are vaccinated are protected.

What am I missing?
 

Ironrooster

Active Member
I don't understand, if the vaccine works, anyone who is vaccinated is protected. Who cares about the potential spreaders passing it to other potential spreaders? Eventually enough of the non vaccinated will get sick to achieve herd immunity. In the meantime, those who are vaccinated are protected.

What am I missing?
First, the vaccine is not 100%. Pfizer and Moderna are 94-95%, J&J is lower about 72% was the last figure I saw. So some vaccinated people are still getting sick with it, albeit in much lower numbers. Most recover although I have seen where at least 2 people have died.
Second, some people who get it, but recover even with mild or no symptoms still have long term effects.
Third, mutations occur with vaccines. The more folks not vaccinated, the larger the pool for mutations to occur in. Eventually a mutation may develop that the vaccine is not effective against. This is why it is in our own interest to help poor countries get fully vaccinated
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
First, the vaccine is not 100%. Pfizer and Moderna are 94-95%, J&J is lower about 72% was the last figure I saw. So some vaccinated people are still getting sick with it, albeit in much lower numbers. Most recover although I have seen where at least 2 people have died.
Second, some people who get it, but recover even with mild or no symptoms still have long term effects.
Third, mutations occur with vaccines. The more folks not vaccinated, the larger the pool for mutations to occur in. Eventually a mutation may develop that the vaccine is not effective against. This is why it is in our own interest to help poor countries get fully vaccinated
So, I missed nothing. Thanks.
 

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
I don't understand, if the vaccine works, anyone who is vaccinated is protected. Who cares about the potential spreaders passing it to other potential spreaders? Eventually enough of the non vaccinated will get sick to achieve herd immunity. In the meantime, those who are vaccinated are protected.

What am I missing?
Quite a bit, actually. An understanding of the science of vaccines that deal with viruses that are constantly mutating, for one. The fact that the current vaccines were developed based on the original strain, and thus are questionable as to their effectiveness against the various other variants that have cropped up. The fact that no one knows how long these vaccines are effective. The fact that "protected" does not mean immune. The fact that experts agree now that herd immunity probably won't happen with Covid-19 for a number of reasons. The fact that contracting Covid-19 isn't like contracting the flu. Covid-19 symptoms and aftereffects can affect some people for unknown periods of time after they've had the virus, possibly for the rest of their lives for some. The fact that only 1/3 of the population getting vaccinated, and most of the rest refusing to take the simplest of precautions means that the virus will probably never disappear.

By your logic, we should all have herd immunity from the flu...but we don't. For many of the same reasons that we won't have herd immunity from Covid-19.

So, basically you're missing pretty much everything of importance. But you do you.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
Quite a bit, actually. An understanding of the science of vaccines that deal with viruses that are constantly mutating, for one. The fact that the current vaccines were developed based on the original strain, and thus are questionable as to their effectiveness against the various other variants that have cropped up. The fact that no one knows how long these vaccines are effective. The fact that "protected" does not mean immune.
Wow. I had no idea you were so anti-vax. But all good points. What I read from this is, best case scenario, the vaccines are rather useless. Hardly a glowing endorsement.
The fact that experts agree now that herd immunity probably won't happen with Covid-19 for a number of reasons.
How is this possible? Countries like Sweden, who never masked up or shut down, hit herd immunity late last year. How is it we're special? Worked there, but won't work here, 'cause science?
The fact that contracting Covid-19 isn't like contracting the flu. Covid-19 symptoms and aftereffects can affect some people for unknown periods of time after they've had the virus, possibly for the rest of their lives for some.
Yet that sounds very much like the flu. Something that, up until last year, people died from annually.
The fact that only 1/3 of the population getting vaccinated, and most of the rest refusing to take the simplest of precautions means that the virus will probably never disappear.
Again, sounding much like the flu.
By your logic, we should all have herd immunity from the flu...but we don't. For many of the same reasons that we won't have herd immunity from Covid-19.
But we do. We have heard immunity to each strain of the flu we've ever contracted. That's why every year the flu dies out. Eventually we hit herd immunity and it goes away. Also, much like the annual flu vaccine, as you state, this one is seems pretty much useless as well. 40+ years of yearly shots and those who take yearly shots still get sick. But they still sell their annual shots, don't they?

Something the manufacturers are again, gearing up to do, 'cause science business.
So, basically you're missing pretty much everything of importance.
So again, I've missed nothing. Except, it seems, your feels.
But you do you.
I agree! Why mess with a winning formula?
 
How is this possible? Countries like Sweden, who never masked up or shut down, hit herd immunity late last year. How is it we're special? Worked there, but won't work here, 'cause science?
Probably it’s not possible because it didn’t happen? It is a misnomer that Sweden didn’t install any measures. Just because they didn’t mandate in the same manner, does not mean that behavior as a whole did not change. Conveniently, this lack of mandating was rewarded with twice the death rate of their surrounding countries. They did not in fact reach herd immunity. I believe Israel is the only country to even be remotely close today, if it is even possible.

Even mentioning the flu and COVID in the same conversation shows at best a complete misunderstanding of the virus or at worst an intentional misinformation campaign.

Unless you are ready to present your vast public health experience and amazing educational credentials, there is no reason at all for anyone to take anything you, or frankly anyone, say on this topic seriously. There are far more reputable sources that people can find to review and research concerns they have around the virus and vaccine than a message board for a game on the internet.
 

Agent327

FOE Team
Forum Moderator
How is this possible? Countries like Sweden, who never masked up or shut down, hit herd immunity late last year. How is it we're special? Worked there, but won't work here, 'cause science?
Thaty actually is fake news. There is no herd immunity in Sweden. Their approach is now hitting them hard and they are investigating if they should not have done it different.

https://ourworldindata.org/explorer...n+outbreaks=false&country=SWE~NLD~DNK~NOR~FIN

Sweden has actually gotten code orange in Europe. Do not travel to Sweden and do not let people from Sweden in.

I believe Israel is the only country to even be remotely close today, if it is even possible.
Malta as well.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
Probably it’s not possible because it didn’t happen? It is a misnomer that Sweden didn’t install any measures. Just because they didn’t mandate in the same manner, does not mean that behavior as a whole did not change. Conveniently, this lack of mandating was rewarded with twice the death rate of their surrounding countries. They did not in fact reach herd immunity. I believe Israel is the only country to even be remotely close today, if it is even possible.
Thanks for the clarification.
Even mentioning the flu and COVID in the same conversation shows at best a complete misunderstanding of the virus or at worst an intentional misinformation campaign.
I mention them together to equate that we now have another respiratory illness that kills like the flu used to. With what the manufacturers say is a marginally effective solution that will require annual booster injections against variants. Yes, a different disease, but we should know the drill.
Unless you are ready to present your vast public health experience and amazing educational credentials, there is no reason at all for anyone to take anything you, or frankly anyone, say on this topic seriously. There are far more reputable sources that people can find to review and research concerns they have around the virus and vaccine than a message board for a game on the internet.
Back at ya. My opinion is worth as much as anyone else's, which is bupkis. My point is and remains that I don't see the need for everyone to get vaccinated, nor has anyone here made the argument as to why we need it either.

Nice talk about Sweden' non herd immunity though.

Back to my original and only point, if the vaccine works, anyone who is vaccinated is protected. Why care about unvaccinated people? Eventually enough of the non vaccinated will get sick to achieve herd immunity, if even possible. In the meantime, those who are vaccinated, with their annual boosters are protected.
 
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Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
Wow. I had no idea you were so anti-vax.
That's because I'm not.

How is this possible? Countries like Sweden, who never masked up or shut down, hit herd immunity late last year. How is it we're special? Worked there, but won't work here, 'cause science?
Fake news. Sweden has not come close to herd immunity.

Again, sounding much like the flu.
Yes, but much more deadly.

But we do. We have heard immunity to each strain of the flu we've ever contracted. That's why every year the flu dies out. Eventually we hit herd immunity and it goes away. Also, much like the annual flu vaccine, as you state, this one is seems pretty much useless as well. 40+ years of yearly shots and those who take yearly shots still get sick. But they still sell their annual shots, don't they?
So much misinformation in so few sentences.

So again, I've missed nothing. Except, it seems, your feels.
No, you've missed facts and truth. Not surprisingly.
 
I mention them together to equate that we now have another respiratory illness that kills like the flu used to. With what the manufacturers say is a marginally effective solution that will require annual booster injections against variants. Yes, a different disease, but we should know the drill.
In terms of a general process, I can see this point. However, I think the much higher death rate and the unknown of what mutation is going to look like for this disease adds a significant amount of nuance and precludes us from knowing that our traditional methods/process is going to be sufficient. I don’t think marginally effective is a good description of the vaccine overall. In terms of vaccines, the mRNA versions for Covid are highly effective against what we know. The Johnson vaccine on it’s own is still pretty decent against what we know.

Back at ya. My opinion is worth as much as anyone else's, which is bupkis.
No argument here. I know there are tons of people that are way more informed and understand the overall public health picture better than I ever will, so I look to them and their perspective as resources to help make informed decisions for my own health. I hope everyone can find a similar resource that they trust to help make the decision that is best for them.

Back to my original and only point, if the vaccine works, anyone who is vaccinated is protected. Why care about unvaccinated people? Eventually enough of the non vaccinated will get sick to achieve herd immunity, if even possible. In the meantime, those who are vaccinated, with their annual boosters are protected.
To me, the number one reason to care about unvaccinated people is out of a genuine desire to see people make an informed decision about the risks of the vaccine versus the risks of the disease. The worst thing that I can imagine is someone making a decision based on being misinformed or due to politicization, and suffer consequences that they don’t even understand or believe in. All medical decisions should come with autonomy. The second reason is as several have mentioned already, variants. The more the disease is allowed to roam, the more it mutates, and the more likely it is to undermine the protections that vaccinated people have achieved (and reduce future efficacy). The last reason in my book is what I have heard referred to as the Swiss Cheese Model. One level of protection is like a single slice of Swiss Cheese, there are a few holes that you can see through. But when you stack several slices on top of each other the holes start moving and filling and you can no longer see through it. Particularly with the Johnson vaccine, the extra layer of having low community spread (exposure) is critical to helping cover that 30% efficacy gap. Those things working in tandem create more robust protection for everyone and can keep us out of the more draconian mask and distancing measures.

Those are the reasons I have heard or have for why we need as many people as possible to partake in the vaccine. I’m sure an epidemologist could probably do it more justice. Only you can decide if that is sufficient for your decision.
 

plinker2

FOE Team
Forum Moderator
We are all alive and fairly well. We should be grateful that we have made it thus far. Next cold and flu season will tell the tale, one way or another. I wish all of you to stay healthy . Since all of you also seem fairly intelligent, I believe you will continue to wash your hands and have safe practices, vaccine or not. Let us push on together, facing whatever. Keep toilet paper stocked, gasoline stored, and above all, keep a sense on humor about you and watch what everyone else is up to.
 

UBERhelp1

Well-Known Member
We are all alive and fairly well. We should be grateful that we have made it thus far. Next cold and flu season will tell the tale, one way or another. I wish all of you to stay healthy . Since all of you also seem fairly intelligent, I believe you will continue to wash your hands and have safe practices, vaccine or not. Let us push on together, facing whatever. Keep toilet paper stocked, gasoline stored, and above all, keep a sense on humor about you and watch what everyone else is up to.
^this.

All in all, it's been a rough year and a half. We've seen the worst in people, but also seen some incredible shows of people helping others out. Right now, we've just got to take it a day at a time and be patient. Everyone is trying to do the best thing they can based on the information they get. With that said, there are some valid reasons not to get the vaccine. Personally, I do think if you can, you should get vaccinated. But I can't blame people for not wanting it. I can definitely see where they are coming from. Your opinion is your opinion, and it's not my job to try and make you confine to my way of thinking.

At this point, things are opening back up and slowly returning to a sense of normalcy. That doesn't mean though that everyone is on the same page. As we come out the other side of the pandemic (and it does look like we are getting there), just remember to try to understand everyone's decisions. We've all had very different experiences throughout the pandemic. Some people lost jobs. Some lost family members, or nearly died themselves.

So, don't expect everyone to feel comfortable with things opening up. But don't expect everyone to want to stay hunkered down either. Try to avoid using the pandemic as another way of dividing or judging people. And maybe we'll be able to be a little bit better to each other.
 

Zatrikon

Well-Known Member
no sir, at the time I post this, the whole Us got 34.2% of the population vaccinated, which means you, or whoever believes they gonna be fine has a 65.8% chance to encounter someone who didn't get the vaccine when you go out for daily activities. And that right there is the problem. Covid started with a way smaller group and now its all over the country. What makes you think 65.8% of the population as potential spreaders is just gonna be a problem for themselves. They gonna have covid spreader only plane or covid spreader only restaurant or something?
It's only a problem if they're infected, not merely if they haven't been vaccinated. 65.8% non-vaccinated does not mean that 65.8% are infected. You can't get the virus (or any virus) from someone who doesn't have it.

There's no AIDS vaccine at all. 100% of the population remains unvaccinated for AIDS. That doesn't mean you're going to get AIDS every time you have sex without a condom.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
I think the much higher death rate...
Much higher death rate?

1621165597806.png

COVID has a 99.4% - 99.98% survival rate, similar to the common flu. This is a much higher survival rate than either SARS or MERS, two other coronaviruses, as well as the Spanish Flu, Asian Flu (H2N2), or Hong Kong Flu (see below.)

1621166519763.png

How about this breakdown by age?

1621166654369.png

While the breakdown is accurate, it's also misleading, as it does not account for comorbidities, Table 3 shows the types of health conditions and contributing causes mentioned in conjunction with deaths involving COVID-19. For ~6% of the deaths, COVID-19 was the only cause mentioned. For deaths with conditions or causes in addition to COVID-19, on average, there were 2.6 additional conditions or causes per death.

What are those comorbidities?
  • Influenza and pneumonia (???)
  • Respiratory failure
  • Hypertensive disease
  • Diabetes
  • Vascular and unspecified dementia
  • Cardiac Arrest
  • Heart failure
  • Renal failure
  • Intentional and unintentional injury, poisoning and other adverse events (???)
  • Other medical conditions
While my age demographic supposedly puts me at a .5% risk of death if I get Covid, having no co-morbidities, for me personally, the real risk of death from Covid-19 is virtually zero. Not by luck either, but by choice. I've worked hard over the years to avoid the poor lifestyle choices that are the root causes behind the majority of respiratory failures, hypertensive disease, cardiac arrests, renal failures, and the like.

Former Vice President and Chief Scientist of Pfizer Dr. Michael Yeadon writes::
“There is absolutely no need for vaccines to extinguish the pandemic. I’ve never heard such nonsense talked about vaccines. You do not vaccinate people who aren’t at risk from a disease. You also don’t set about planning to vaccinate millions of fit and healthy people with a vaccine that hasn’t been extensively tested on human subjects.”
As I believe the science behind this statement, science universally accepted prior to Covid, I see no reason, scientific or otherwise, why I, personally, should take the vaccine.

Let's also not forget the average age of Covid related deaths is 78, the same age as U.S. life expectancy. It must also never be forgotten that it was a handful of governors from densely populated states, transferring Covid patients into nursing homes, who got the sharp death spikes underway, all states where Covid deaths per capita are still in the top ten.

Those transfers, whether the patients were carrying Covid or the normal flu, were like setting fire to barns full of hay. Call me naïve, but I find it hard to believe that multiple Governors could make the same disastrous decision all at the same time, all in the same way. I'll leave it to other to ascribe motive, but the timing and choice of states could not have been better to light a match and start a national panic.

I'll also drop this chart here, make of it what you will.

1621173339160.png

How many people died because we had a President to crucify? You think the idiot just pulled the idea out of his ass, or maybe he read the August 22, 2005 article published in The Virology Journal, the official publication of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), with the heading, “Chloroquine is a potent inhibitor of SARS coronavirus infection and spread.” The authors write, "that chloroquine has strong antiviral effects on SARS-CoV infection of primate cells. These inhibitory effects are observed when the cells are treated with the drug either before or after exposure to the virus, suggesting both prophylactic and therapeutic advantage.” As all should know by now, hydroxychloroquine is a just milder version of chloroquine.

Here again, I trust the science. Not in theory, but by the actual results of the largest field trial of HCQ as a treatment for SARS-Coronavirus in history. So even if I do get Covid, and if I should run into complications, I'm confident there's safe treatments available, including Ivermectin. Question is, will it be legal for me to get them here, or will I have to flee to Costa Rica?

Lest we lose focus, I say all of that to ask this, had the U.S. followed the science as they did in Costa Rica, a protocol recommended by China, we could have reduced Covid related deaths by 79%. Had we even achieved the piss poor results of India and South Korea, we would have reduced deaths by 50%. Had we reduced deaths by 50-75%, what would those first three charts look like?

If we then subtract the number of deaths caused by multiple Governors pushing infected patients into nursing homes, and the Covid deaths from both the Influenza and pneumonia ('cause, really?); and the Intentional and unintentional injury, poisoning and other adverse events comorbidity categories from the totals, ('cause again, really?), what would those first three charts then look like?

So, compared to the flu, I ask you, how deadly is Covid? Like, for reals?

Political agendas aside, I understand the need to demonize HCQ and anyone supporting it. Nobody makes any money on HCQ, having gone off patent long, long, ago. It costs $20 for a full round of treatment. With vaccines however, a whole lot of people stand to make a whole lot of money. Including the NIH, largely funded by those making and pushing the vaccines. Vaccines only authorized under an Emergency Use Authorization, an Emergency Use Authorization which can only granted when there's no other treatments available.

Let's face it, you can't have cheap and effective when there's that kind of money to be made and everyone, from big pharma, big tech, corporate media, to politicians, all standing in line for a piece of the action.

Funny how folks will view every move by Inno as another scheme to get folks to spend diamonds, but then believe that the pharmaceutical companies selling trillions of dollars worth of vaccines, the multinational conglomerates making hundreds of billions in record profits, the media companies making tens of billions in drug company ad revenue, politicians of every stripe earning tens of millions trading the pandemic, then getting hundreds of millions more in campaign contributions from the companies making all that money, and big tech labeling all of the above as misinformation, and censoring all opposing viewpoints or evidence, are working from pure motives and not from the aforementioned's unquenchable thirst for more money, more power, and more control.

Now that folks like JBG can simply dismiss me as a conspiracy theorist, let me drop these definitions here,

CONSPIRACY, noun [Latin See Conspire.]
1. A combination of men for an evil purpose; an agreement between two or more persons, to commit some crime in concert.

CONSPIRE, verb intransitive
1. To agree, by oath, covenant or otherwise, to commit a crime; to plot; to hatch treason.

If those groups colluding together to make a whole lot of money, and gain a whole lot more power and control at our expense doesn't meet the definition, nothing does.

With that kind of money at stake it's easy to see why we have the 24/7 psychological assault that for many, has fostered a permanent mistrust and fear of every other human being. People who now, despite being fully vaccinated, proudly proclaim on social media how they now refuse to follow CDC guidelines that it's safe to take off their mask. People who now believe,
you can come up with 1 million reasons to not having the shots, doesn't change the fact that you chose to stay being a problem instead of the solution
and,
no sir, at the time I post this, the whole Us got 34.2% of the population vaccinated, which means you, or whoever believes they gonna be fine has a 65.8% chance to encounter someone who didn't get the vaccine when you go out for daily activities. And that right there is the problem. Covid started with a way smaller group and now its all over the country. What makes you think 65.8% of the population as potential spreaders is just gonna be a problem for themselves. They gonna have covid spreader only plane or covid spreader only restaurant or something?
Not to pick on @icarusethan for making the statements, there's many more who share this belief as evidenced by the likes. Imagine living in a world where you believe that perfectly healthy people, who have never gotten or spread Covid are the problem? People so insane, I was once equated in a private conversation with a serial killer for daring to say I would be done with masks once we hit day 45 of , "15 days to slow the spread." Yet here we are, 430+ days later, goalposts moved, to whatever it takes, no matter how long to wipe Covid off the face of the Earth! Then there's the ever present threat of,
and the unknown of what mutation is going to look like for this disease adds a significant amount of nuance and precludes us from knowing that our traditional methods/process is going to be sufficient.
The next big boogie man just around the corner. But I get it. Fear sells. As the guy from CNN said, fear keeps people tuned in. More tuned in to see more adds from drug companies. See how that works? Label it what you want, but follow the money and apply Occam's Razor. To see an agenda at play simply means you see the obvious, a huge profit motive for everyone involved, at our expense.

As George Carlin once said, "It's a big club, and you ain’t in it." As Talking Heads sang, "Same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was, same as it ever was"
I don’t think marginally effective is a good description of the vaccine overall. In terms of vaccines, the mRNA versions for Covid are highly effective against what we know. The Johnson vaccine on it’s own is still pretty decent against what we know.
I agree. For effect, I was merely agreeing with the consensus that,
No vaccine is 100%. Moderna which I have is rated 94-95%, so I have a 5-6% chance of getting it.
As is clear every time a discussion involving RNGs comes up here, hardly anyone understands a thing about statistics or probability. I'd hoped you'd have come along to clear up such a garbage statement, but I guess you missed it, along with everyone else who understands statistics and probability on this forum.

95% effective means, against contracting Covid after exposure to an infected and infectious person in a circumstance that without the vaccine, would have likely led to contracting Covid, according to infection models. To believe you still have a 5% chance of contracting Covid after vaccination assumes 100% of the people you encounter are all infected and infectious. We also know that it takes a prolonged exposure to an infectious person, so unless you're snogging every person you pass in the grocery store, you can eliminate about 95% of the people you encounter.

That leaves people you regularly have prolonged exposure to, the same people who historically have infected people with the flu. Sorry to draw that analogy again, but the process of viral transmission is well understood, at least it used to be before Covid.

Can we at least agree that if nothing else, if you're sick stay home? So let's now eliminate most all the people in our work, home, gym, mommy group, etc. So now we're left with Family.

If you're vaccinated, the chances of getting Covid become so small that, back to my original and only point, people who've been vaccinated are fully protected regardless of the vaccine status of the rest of the population.
No argument here. I know there are tons of people that are way more informed and understand the overall public health picture better than I ever will, so I look to them and their perspective as resources to help make informed decisions for my own health. I hope everyone can find a similar resource that they trust to help make the decision that is best for them.
All I ask is that in consideration of which voices to trust, you hold each one of them against the litmus test of what their balance sheet looks like with or without the pandemic, even if it's the balance sheet of your favorite, trusted doctor. Who gains, who losses? Not hard to see those driving the agenda the hardest, gain the most. Again, follow the money.

The Washington Post stokes the fear so we all stay home and order from Amazon, while Jeff Bezos, owner of both, almost doubles his wealth. But sure, "it's just all a crazy conspiracy theory. Nothing to see here, move along." Again, call me naïve, "but if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, you can call it a banana, but fool me once, you can't get fooled again." (Yes, I'm fully aware I've butchered the quotes of three or more people.)

Point being, loads of people people getting rich while we fall for their agenda. So pardon me while I discount what everyone who stands to gain has to say. I'd rather listen to what folks have to say, regardless of what they have to lose. The voices that those who have the most to gain work to keep from being heard.
To me, the number one reason to care about unvaccinated people is out of a genuine desire to see people make an informed decision about the risks of the vaccine versus the risks of the disease. The worst thing that I can imagine is someone making a decision based on being misinformed or due to politicization, and suffer consequences that they don’t even understand or believe in.
As do I, yet at this point, the minds of both sides are fixed. About that, I don't care either. But don't think those like myself are misinformed. We're well informed. Both sides are. I simply ask everyone to now run all of their trusted sources through the process of money, power, and control.

My TL/DR summary based on much research, is that almost without exception, those with little to gain, but everything to lose, those who've been censored, silenced, and demonized, have all said in a nutshell, this is all overblown and most everything we're doing about it is wrong.

Meanwhile, those with the most to gain push the hardest, then silence and destroy anyone who threatens their insatiable thirst for more money, more power, and more control.
All medical decisions should come with autonomy.
I agree, 100% full stop.

The only reason I entered this train wreck thread is that far too many would like to force folks to take the vaccine against their will. At the point that becomes one's position, they've become a danger to me and society. Believe my thoughts and beliefs are crackpot all you want, but resort to violence, even though the state, to violate my right to have and live by those crackpot beliefs, and you've crossed the line. On that point, there is no discussion.

I believe that if you want to take the vaccine, then take the vaccine, don't want the vaccine, don't get the vaccine. Problem is, too many don't feel that way. Problem is those who don't don't feel that way want to force their choice upon others. See the problem?

Pro Tip: If someone is on the side of violating another's personal autonomy to enforce their will, they're on the wrong side. Pandemic or no, they're on the wrong side.
The second reason is as several have mentioned already, variants. The more the disease is allowed to roam, the more it mutates, and the more likely it is to undermine the protections that vaccinated people have achieved (and reduce future efficacy).
Ah yes. The ever present boogie man. In this, I can't help you. Hypotheticals. What the majority of this fiasco was been based on. Hypotheticals that turned out to be all kinds of wrong.
The last reason in my book is what I have heard referred to as the Swiss Cheese Model. One level of protection is like a single slice of Swiss Cheese, there are a few holes that you can see through. But when you stack several slices on top of each other the holes start moving and filling and you can no longer see through it. Particularly with the Johnson vaccine, the extra layer of having low community spread (exposure) is critical to helping cover that 30% efficacy gap. Those things working in tandem create more robust protection for everyone and can keep us out of the more draconian mask and distancing measures.
You lost me at model and projections, I'm not buying any of them and won't make my health decisions based on them. You can, but I won't. On the disease, or the vaccine. Not when they're so wrong, not when they're pushed by those who stand to gain, not when they're reviled by those with everything to lose.
Those are the reasons I have heard or have for why we need as many people as possible to partake in the vaccine. I’m sure an epidemologist could probably do it more justice. Only you can decide if that is sufficient for your decision.
Regardless of the opinion of an epidemiologist, you cannot deny that the more who take the vaccine, the more all of the above stand to make. Science, or marketing? Now with a yearly booster shot? Hell yeah! Need we a reminder from the O'jays, or Pink Floyd?

Agree, or disagree with the above, no matter to me. Only reason I'm here is to answer those who would seek to violate my human rights or Constitutional freedoms with a loud and resounding, hell no. Not now, not ever.

Bottom line, as an individual, I have close to a zero percent chance of suffering any long term ill effects from Covid even if I should get it. Should I get it and run into complications and need it, I have no issues with taking HCQ, or Ivermectin as a prevention or cure. By choosing to then be in the control group, I also have a zero percent chance of any adverse reaction to the vaccines. With a zero percent risk on both sides of the equation, I've chosen to sit out both this pandemic and it's vaccine cure.

Let me end with this. I believe what is in my signature. I hope when what was done in secret finally comes to light, the anger that will be directed at me, then get's directed at them. I'm also not so naïve to think it will. I've read the end of the book, I know how this plays out. Eventually they'll get their mark. It also appears, as many are now, we'll demand it from them. I plan to sit that one out too. The old adage, over my dead body, comes to mind.

Good talk.
 
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