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Imbalance between Military Strength

Wyldon

Active Member
Hi, All Players,

Does anyone of you feel that your soldiers are not as powerful as the enemy's same-age soldiers, even when both have the same attack and defence bonuses?

I have been feeling so, based upon my own experience and observation, and I truly do not see the usefulness of attack and defence boosts, even when they are higher than the enemy's.

Is the game deliberately designed to be so? I truly want to know. Otherwise, fighting combats in the game would be very unfair.

It is just I. Or, does any of you have the same feeling or experience?
I do not share that experience, C'.

If you haven't already done so, you should know which units move first and when. Unit movement/attack priorities may not be the same across the ages, so you need to note which units move first and when for your age.

The easiest way to see this is to set an army with 1 of each unit type, and that includes one champion and one rogue. Pick a fight in GE, GBG, or even a daily quest, but you're not going to actually fight--you're going to note the order YOUR units are highlighted when it's your turn. Your rogue may get turned before it's highlighted, but so far, it seems rogues ALWAYS move last, even if they are turned to a fast unit, which often moves first.

Once you know who moves first AND when, you can try to use that to your advantage.

Which side moves first, though??? Whichever side has the most units in that movement/attack order you just discovered.

What if you and the defender have an equal amount of the same type of troop, who moves/attacks first? YOU...the attacker.

What if you have 3 heavy inf, the defender has 4 heavy inf, and moves its heavies first, but you managed to kill 2 of its heavies while it killed 1 of yours. Which heavy units move first next round? YOURS, because you have either equal to or greater numbers of heavies (2 vs 2) now. Being able to get those first strikes during a melee can mean the difference between winning and losing a close battle.

What if you had killed 3 of its 4 heavies, but still lost only 2 of your heavies, leaving you a 2 vs 1 advantage? Your 2 move/attack first.

And, while overwhelming one unit with many attacks is a popular tactic, there are times where you may NOT want to waste a fresh troop, able to lay 7 damage on an adversary, when that adversary has only 3 damage left. It won't do much damage to you, but using YOUR first strike 7-damage potential against ANOTHER fresh adversary, will knock it down to 3-damage bars remaining, too. Now, instead of your healthy troop wasting its 7-damage potential to kill a troop with 3 damage remaining, YOU whack an enemy's healthy troop FIRST, to reduce the amount of damage it can do on its retaliation. Otherwise, that defender's unit, capable of delivering 7 damage to your healthy unit, may hit your 100% healthy unit first. That could turn the tide of battle in the defender's favor.

There REALLY is a lot to learn just by manually fighting. It can help you construct very strong armies that you can confidently use auto attack for when rogues are too few.
 
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Pericles the Lion

Well-Known Member
What if you have 3 heavy inf, the defender has 4 heavy inf, and moves its heavies first, but you managed to kill 2 of its heavies while it killed 1 of yours. Which heavy units move first next round? YOURS, because you have either equal to or greater numbers of heavies (2 vs 2) now. Being able to get those first strikes during a melee can mean the difference between winning and losing a close battle.

What if you had killed 3 of its 4 heavies, but still lost only 2 of your heavies, leaving you a 2 vs 1 advantage? Your 2 move/attack first.
I don't think that this is accurate. The order of battle is established based on unit "initiative" (e.g. fast units move first, rogues last). Once this order of battle is set it does not flip-flop as units are killed off after each turn. Dead units are eliminated and the next unit in the queue (either yours or the defender's) goes next.
 

Emberguard

Well-Known Member
I don't think that this is accurate. The order of battle is established based on unit "initiative" (e.g. fast units move first, rogues last). Once this order of battle is set it does not flip-flop as units are killed off after each turn. Dead units are eliminated and the next unit in the queue (either yours or the defender's) goes next.
They're referring to this:

image.png



You're right it does seem to be set in stone on Unit Order once the battle has started. I've never seen it change the order mid-battle even after units are eliminated


Unit Type does seem to play some sort of role, and it's certainly what I base my decisions off of. It's the most straight forward way of choosing which units to utilize. But it can't possibly be the only factor, otherwise you wouldn't get situations like these:


Horseman (Fast - Bronze Age): 22 Movement
Spearfighter(Light - Bronze Age): 14 Movement
Behemoth (Heavy - Arctic Future): 12 Movement

image.png


VS

Horseman (Fast - Bronze Age): 22 Movement
Battle Fortress (Heavy - Arctic Future): 20 Movement
Spearfighter(Light - Bronze Age): 14 Movement

image.png


VS


Dragon Drone (Light - Arctic Future): 32 Movement
Horseman (Fast - Bronze Age): 22 Movement
Spearfighter(Light - Bronze Age): 14 Movement
Rogue (Light - No Age): 14 Movement

image.png




Scimitar (Fast - Oceanic Future): 35 movement
Manta (Light - Oceanic Future): 24 movement
Dragon Drone (Light - Arctic Future): 32 Movement
Turturret (Artillery - Oceanic Future): 10 Movement
Champion (Heavy - Arctic Furure): 22 Movement
Battle Fortress (Heavy - Arctic Future): 20 Movement

image.png


VS


3 x Surrogate Soldier (Ranged - Arctic Future): 18 Movement
Dragon Drone (Light - Arctic Future): 32 Movement
Horseman (Fast - Bronze Age): 22 Movement
Plasma Artillery (Artillery - Arctic Future): 14 Movement
Spearfighter (Light - Bronze Age): 14 Movement
Rogue (Light - No Age): 14 Movement)
image.png




It's quite possible Unit Movement plays a much bigger role in turn order than we've been giving it credit for.

I'm thinking Unit Initiative Hierarchy is a combination of the following factors.
  • Unit Skill (Rapid Deployment)
  • Movement
  • Unit Typing
  • Age
  • Amount of Units
Problem is every time I think I have the exact behaviour figured out, I test my theory and find it doing something else again once we get into the higher Ages.

So I'm not sure if there actually is a highest priority factor, or if everything factors in and then whichever has the most "points" combined from all factors gets priority.

There are definitely some consistency though. No Age does seem to go last no matter what. Duplicates are definitely grouped together no matter what, with it taking turns between you and the opponent, but whoever has the most excess duplicates goes first within the duplicate units.

Fast does tend to go first, but it also usually has the highest Movement stat for its Age. So it's hard to say if Fast is going first because of Typing, or because of Movement, or a combination of both together.

Future Era Fast Unit only has 18 Movement but overrides that with Rapid Deployment
 

Wyldon

Active Member
I don't think that this is accurate. The order of battle is established based on unit "initiative" (e.g. fast units move first, rogues last). Once this order of battle is set it does not flip-flop as units are killed off after each turn. Dead units are eliminated and the next unit in the queue (either yours or the defender's) goes next.
The unit attack/movement priority between the various unit types doesn't change. The unit attack/movement priority WITHIN a unit type CAN and DOES change based on the ORDER you actually attack the same defender's units, and whether or not you can kill it.

I'm sorry for my misleading very simplified original post; it's more complicated, but gives an attacker a great advantage if they're paying attention to the order the defender's same type units are moving.

Ever wonder why, when facing equal numbers of same type troops, but you happen to one-shot-one-kill a defender, but you can immediately attack with the same unit type again, but other times, again with equal numbers of same unit types, you one-shot-one-kill a defender, but you don't move next? It's because you one-shot-one-killed the defender's unit that WOULD'VE moved first or next, had you not whacked it. If YOU know which defender's unit would naturally move next, attack it, and one-shot-one-kill it next, you'll again be able to attack/move before the defender has moved at all.

During melees you may have noticed sometimes you go more than once in a row when you're facing off against only the same type of troops. That's because, i believe, the underlying attack/movement priority for the defenders has been interrupted by killed units that WOULD'VE moved, had they survived. You'll keep attacking/moving until that defender's same unit type's turn would naturally occur, OR the defender whacked one of your units, disrupting your order.

THIS ALL IS EASILY PROVEN. In GE or GBG, when you face off against only one unit type, create a matching army. Begin the battle, but note the order the defender's units move--it will not change. Once you've noted that order, surrender, then attack again. For those who can one-shot-one-kill, try hitting that unit you NOW know will move first! If you one-shot-one-kill it, YOU get the next move, not the defender.

For those who can't one-shot-one-kill, you can still gain the tactical advantage, IF YOU CAN TWO-SHOT-ONE-KILL, by attacking the unit that moves SECOND! Once the defender moves his first unit, your 2nd hit on the defending UNIT THAT WOULD'VE MOVED NEXT killed it. YOUR third unit is next up in the movement cue, not the defender's third unit. But, don't go after the third unit, you're not gonna kill it. Hit the unit that will move after it. After the defender's third unit moves, your 4th unit kills the defender's 4th unit your 3rd unit just attacked, AND YOU MOVE AGAIN. Hint: If there are only 5 of those defending units, let your 5th unit now hit their first. Their 1st will have only had that one attack/movement, because after the defender moves its 5th unit, AND ASSUMING YOU DIDN'T GET YOUR FIRST UNIT KILLED, your first kills their first, then watch the bloodbath as you surgically carve up their 3rd and 5th units, without them ever moving again (well, if your early units are still alive :) ). Of course, boosts still have their role, but this helps those who may not be as strong as the defender, but close, defeat them.

DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT! When you face all of the same unit type, just match them, note the order the defenders move, then ACTUALLY STUDY THIS BY TRYING IT. Just keep surrendering to allow you to keep testing. Those who can one-shot-one-kill are gonna love almost killing a whole army of the same type before they can barely lay a hand on you.

This, too, will be proven, if you try it. Suddenly, you'll realize you can win battles against same type units, even if you're outnumbered, if you learn which order the defender's same unit types move based on how many they start with.
 
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Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
The unit attack/movement priority between the various unit types doesn't change. The unit attack/movement priority WITHIN a unit type CAN and DOES change based on the ORDER you actually attack the same defender's units, and whether or not you can kill it.

I'm sorry for my misleading very simplified original post; it's more complicated, but gives an attacker a great advantage if they're paying attention to the order the defender's same type units are moving.

Ever wonder why, when facing equal numbers of same type troops, but you happen to one-shot-one-kill a defender, but you can immediately attack with the same unit type again, but other times, again with equal numbers of same unit types, you one-shot-one-kill a defender, but you don't move next? It's because you one-shot-one-killed the defender's unit that WOULD'VE moved first or next, had you not whacked it. If YOU know which defender's unit would naturally move next, attack it, and one-shot-one-kill it next, you'll again be able to attack/move before the defender has moved at all.

During melees you may have noticed sometimes you go more than once in a row when you're facing off against only the same type of troops. That's because, i believe, the underlying attack/movement priority for the defenders has been interrupted by killed units that WOULD'VE moved, had they survived. You'll keep attacking/moving until that defender's same unit type's turn would naturally occur, OR the defender whacked one of your units, disrupting your order.

THIS ALL EASILY PROVEN. In GE or GBG, when you face off against only one unit type, create a matching army. Begin the battle, but note the order the defender's units move--it will not change. Once you've noted that order, surrender, then attack again. For those who can one-shot-one-kill, try hitting that unit you NOW know will move first! If you one-shot-one-kill it, YOU get the next move, not the defender.

For those who can't one-shot-one-kill, you can still gain the tactical advantage, IF YOU CAN TWO-SHOT-ONE-KILL, by attacking the unit that moves SECOND! Once the defender moves his first unit, your 2nd hit on the defending UNIT THAT WOULD'VE MOVED NEXT killed it. YOUR third unit is next up in the movement cue, not the defender's third unit. But, don't go after the third unit, you're not gonna kill it. Hit the unit that will move after it. After the defender's third unit moves, your 4th unit kills the defender's 4th unit your 3rd unit just attacked, AND YOU MOVE AGAIN. Hint: If there are only 5 of those defending units, let your 5th unit now hit their first. Their 1st will have only had that one attack/movement, because after the defender movesits 5th unit, AND ASSUMING YOU DIDN'T GET YOUR FIRST UNIT KILLED, your first kills their first, then watch the bloodbath as you surgically carve up their 3rd and 5th units, without them ever moving again. Of course, boosts still have their role, but this helps those who may not be as strong as the defender, but close, defeat them.

DO NOT TAKE MY WORD FOR IT! When you face all of the same unit type, just match them, note the order the defenders move, than ACTUALLY STUDY THIS BY TRYING IT. Just keep surrendering to allow you to keep testing. Those who can one-shot-one-kill are gonna love almost killing a whole army of the same type before they can barely lay a hand on you.

This, too, will be proven, if you try it. Suddenly, you'll realize you can win battles against same type units, even if you're outnumbered, if you learn which order the defender's same unit types move based on how many you start with.
If you're playing on PC you don't have to start again because you can see the opposing unit's order of movement just by hovering over the icons at the bottom of the screen. When you hover over a particular unit's icon, the border of the hex that unit is in will turn orange. One of the many reasons I prefer fighting on PC instead of mobile. (You can also, on PC, hover over the actual unit and it's icon at the bottom will be highlighted.)
 

Wyldon

Active Member
If you're playing on PC you don't have to start again because you can see the opposing unit's order of movement just by hovering over the icons at the bottom of the screen. When you hover over a particular unit's icon, the border of the hex that unit is in will turn orange. One of the many reasons I prefer fighting on PC instead of mobile. (You can also, on PC, hover over the actual unit and it's icon at the bottom will be highlighted.)
That would be awesome! Right now, I've had to memorize defender movement priority based on how many they started with. I've only played on phone. :(
 

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
They're referring to this:
*snip*

It's quite possible Unit Movement plays a much bigger role in turn order than we've been giving it credit for.

I'm thinking Unit Initiative Hierarchy is a combination of the following factors.
  • Unit Skill (Rapid Deployment)
  • Movement
  • Unit Typing
  • Age
  • Amount of Units
Problem is every time I think I have the exact behaviour figured out, I test my theory and find it doing something else again once we get into the higher Ages.

So I'm not sure if there actually is a highest priority factor, or if everything factors in and then whichever has the most "points" combined from all factors gets priority.

There are definitely some consistency though. No Age does seem to go last no matter what. Duplicates are definitely grouped together no matter what, with it taking turns between you and the opponent, but whoever has the most excess duplicates goes first within the duplicate units.

Fast does tend to go first, but it also usually has the highest Movement stat for its Age. So it's hard to say if Fast is going first because of Typing, or because of Movement, or a combination of both together.

Future Era Fast Unit only has 18 Movement but overrides that with Rapid Deployment

Turn order was based off movement prior to rapid deployment which was the first exception (and can be taken as "always counts as higher movement than any non-rapid-deployment unit").

Then in AF they started messing with a hidden stat called initiative (found visible in elvenar, another of their games). This is what actually determines turn order ; just up to FE initiative = movement was a given. Since AF they can make the turn order whatever they want.

Then at some point later they decided rogues should move last. So they got set to initiative 1. I believe drummers and color guards also were discovered to have slightly different initiatives?

qaccy had a thread in guides that covered all the exceptional initiatives. (Edit: https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com...initiative-in-arctic-future-and-beyond.23530/ )

once you know the initiative, turn order is fixed as follows:

- all higher initiative units always appear earlier in the order than lower initiative units. initiative does not in general go up with era - eels/gliders are among the highest initiative non-rapid deployment units (60 iirc), while many higher era fasts aren't quite so high (50 iirc).
- when both sides have units at a given initiative, the side with more will have the amount more they have placed first, and then alternate attacker-defender-attacker-defender for the rest.
- era does not play into it in determining the tiebreaker of which units with the same initiative by the same player go first. it almost feels random, but i think it's probably based on an internal unit-id seed or something like that.
 

Wyldon

Active Member
Turn order was based off movement prior to rapid deployment which was the first exception (and can be taken as "always counts as higher movement than any non-rapid-deployment unit").

Then in AF they started messing with a hidden stat called initiative (found visible in elvenar, another of their games). This is what actually determines turn order ; just up to FE initiative = movement was a given. Since AF they can make the turn order whatever they want.

Then at some point later they decided rogues should move last. So they got set to initiative 1. I believe drummers and color guards also were discovered to have slightly different initiatives?

qaccy had a thread in guides that covered all the exceptional initiatives. (Edit: https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com...initiative-in-arctic-future-and-beyond.23530/ )

once you know the initiative, turn order is fixed as follows:

- all higher initiative units always appear earlier in the order than lower initiative units. initiative does not in general go up with era - eels/gliders are among the highest initiative non-rapid deployment units (60 iirc), while many higher era fasts aren't quite so high (50 iirc).
- when both sides have units at a given initiative, the side with more will have the amount more they have placed first, and then alternate attacker-defender-attacker-defender for the rest.
- era does not play into it in determining the tiebreaker of which units with the same initiative by the same player go first. it almost feels random, but i think it's probably based on an internal unit-id seed or something like that.
That initiative, which I know nothing about, likely explains why my IA units vs SAJM unit types (different worlds) don't have the same movement priorities.

However, when both sides have units with the same initiative (presumably this means same units), my empirical results don't support the attacker-defender-attacker-defender alternating scenario. I could duplicate that scenario if attacks were solely focused on each unit as they move/attack.

But, I preempt the otherwise natural alternating attacker-defender scenario, by doing what I described above. I'm confident that if you tested as I described, you'll experience the same and feel a sense of deviousness as it opens up some clever tactics when you're not as strong as a defender.

I'd love to hear from anyone who tests this, but don't experience what I described...
 
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xivarmy

Well-Known Member
That initiative, which I know nothing about, likely explains why my IA units vs SAJM unit types (different worlds) don't have the same movement priorities.

However, when both sides have units with the same initiative (presumably this means same units), my empirical results don't support the attacker-defender-attacker-defender alternating scenario. I could duplicate that scenario if attacks were solely focused on each unit as they move/attack.

But, I preempt the otherwise natural alternating attacker-defender scenario, by doing what I described above. I'm confident that if you tested as I described, you'll feel a sense of deviousness as it opens up some clever tactics when you're not as strong as a defender.

I'd love to hear from anyone who tests this, but don't experience what I described...
I've never seen an exception to the attacker-defender alternation as I laid out with identical initiative movements (note that sometimes it might appear different because two units have the same initiative).

But in the simplistic case of 8 artillery (A) vs 4 artillery (D) with no other units tied for initiative, it will go A-A-A-A-A-D-A-D-A-D-A-D (thereby allowing 8 attacking artillery to wipe out 4 defending artillery before they can shoot back if you take them out in the right order). (No rogue transformations involved in this scenario, as those transformed rogues will remain with initiative 1 no matter what they turn into)

Edit: rereading your wall of text, i think we're in agreement - if you take out the earlier D, another D does not take its place, it just loses its place. The turn order is fixed at battle start.
 

Wyldon

Active Member
I've never seen an exception to the attacker-defender alternation as I laid out with identical initiative movements (note that sometimes it might appear different because two units have the same initiative).

But in the simplistic case of 8 artillery (A) vs 4 artillery (D) with no other units tied for initiative, it will go A-A-A-A-A-D-A-D-A-D-A-D (thereby allowing 8 attacking artillery to wipe out 4 defending artillery before they can shoot back if you take them out in the right order). (No rogue transformations involved in this scenario, as those transformed rogues will remain with initiative 1 no matter what they turn into)

Edit: rereading your wall of text, i think we're in agreement - if you take out the earlier D, another D does not take its place, it just loses its place. The turn order is fixed at battle start.
That is precisely what my wall is saying. So, in 7 v 7 glider battle, for example, I experience: A1-D1-A2-A3-D3-A4-A5-D5-A6-A7-D7, unless I'm not paying attention to the defender's movement order. D MIGHT get one kill in this exchange.

If I can't guarantee one-shot-one-kill, i'm wasting time and troops if i hit the unit i know will move first. So, as I can two-shot-one-kill, i ignore D1 and hit D2 with my first move. D1 moves and A2 kills D2, giving my A3 the next move which attacks D4. D3 moves. A4 kills D4. A5 moves and attacks D6. D5 moves. A6 finishes off D6, etc... It's beautiful!

Still works well if you go 6A v 7D!
 
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85gt

Member
My thinking is Inno has us chasing the carrot with Att/Def. curious if my AO is lvl134 (40%) what is the % AI hitting back with, Im not doing much better at 2900/1800 than when 500-600 points below that.
 

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
My thinking is Inno has us chasing the carrot with Att/Def. curious if my AO is lvl134 (40%) what is the % AI hitting back with, Im not doing much better at 2900/1800 than when 500-600 points below that.
the AI has no AO to hit you back with. that's solely your benefit.

As for not doing much better, that's to be expected. Attrition penalty increases faster with each attrition, and the relative difference of boost decreases the more you have. 3000/2500 (difference between 2400 and 2900) is about the same as the difference between 0% and 20%. It's something, but it's not going to change the game.
 

85gt

Member
the AI has no AO to hit you back with. that's solely your benefit.

As for not doing much better, that's to be expected. Attrition penalty increases faster with each attrition, and the relative difference of boost decreases the more you have. 3000/2500 (difference between 2400 and 2900) is about the same as the difference between 0% and 20%. It's something, but it's not going to change the game.
That is for GBG, I'm talking more about GvG
 

Ebeondi Asi

Well-Known Member
GvG the defenders have almost nothing for a boost. The Defenders only get something from Observatory/DealCastle/St Basil combos of the entire Guild spread out among the total they are defending in some manner I know nothing about. I don't believe non guild members can even know how much the defenders have in any one sector. But nearly anyone with sone boost far overwhelms that.
(I would guess only in All Ages where Keen Eye is possibly present would defenders have much of a chance.
In a GvG battle the main advantage defenders have is the ten to one fight ratio to win a siege.
 

Ebeondi Asi

Well-Known Member
And for usual attack of autobattle vs manual. some groups I see change positions. Sometime when the response from Inno is slow, and I click on manual battle. The defenders instant visual the lineup changes for alternate to a bunch of mine then the enemy. (except when same troops enemy and mine then the alternate stays. )((I use troops that move first. for that first shot advantage))
 

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
GvG the defenders have almost nothing for a boost. The Defenders only get something from Observatory/DealCastle/St Basil combos of the entire Guild spread out among the total they are defending in some manner I know nothing about. I don't believe non guild members can even know how much the defenders have in any one sector. But nearly anyone with sone boost far overwhelms that.
(I would guess only in All Ages where Keen Eye is possibly present would defenders have much of a chance.
In a GvG battle the main advantage defenders have is the ten to one fight ratio to win a siege.
In GvG the max boost for defense armies is 75%. Many will be less than that. You can see what the defense boost is for any sector by clicking on View Sector, then click on the defense army icon and hover over one of the defense armies.
 

xivarmy

Well-Known Member
That is for GBG, I'm talking more about GvG
In GvG you shouldn't really see a difference between 2900 and 2400 unless you're doing something like using earlier era troops on all ages.

You already have so much of an edge that the most that could be in play is how often you 1-shot without an AO crit... Which would depend on exact circumstance - but in many you're probably already doing as much as matters anyways. i.e. FE vs hovers you can't 1-shot without AO crit anyways, so it's probably no different between 2400 and 2900.
 
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