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Improvements to Trading

jsc29

Active Member
Hello, I am new to FOE, but am a very experienced EVE Online player and a trader in EVE. EVE has the best and most sophisticated trading system of any game.

Forge of Empires has a trading system which is very primitive and inferior even to games like World of Warcraft, which has a relatively poor trading system (called the auction house). This is entirely unnecessary, because many of the improvements require little or no changes to the interface, or are otherwise relatively easy to implement.

1. Do not tax trades. I do not know why designers do this. You want to hamper trading? To what purpose? The reasons I have heard justifying taxing trades in different games, whether it be WOW or whatever, make little logical sense. Taxing trades just lowers the volume of trades and the use of that game feature, and there is no good reason to discourage people from using a game feature. If you want to make players work harder for progression, increase the costs of progression. Taxing trades is not the right approach to making the game harder, it just makes it less featured and less enjoyable.

2. Show all the trades. Currently the interface does not show the player's own offered trades. Doh. Who thought that up? A design error like this simply shows that whoever is designing the trading system needs to be replaced with someone who has more experience in real trading and economics. Another blunder.

3. Make your regions explicit. It is ok to regionalize trade, but you should inform the players who the heck is in their region. Who sees my trades? Is it neighbors and guild members and friends, or other people too? This should not be some big mystery. The composition of the trading region should be explicit and known to the traders.

4. Do not restrict trading ratios. The restriction of trade ratios to 2:1 is a completely hare-brained idea. I think the idea here is some kind of market "justice". It recalls the vulgar hatred of "profiteering" or "gouging". A common person hates a merchant because he thinks he is being charged "too much". Everything should have a "fair" price according to the average person. That is the thinking of the common man who has no experience as a businessman. Then, of course, what does the common man do when he goes to sell something? Charge an unrealistic price and complain that there are "not enough buyers". The laws of supply and demand are simple and have been well explained since Adam Smith: let the market set prices. That is what is fair and makes the best system. The 2:1 restriction is dumb at multiple levels. For example, it prevents most trades from widely separated ages. If I want to trade 100 Lumber for 10 Basalt I should be able to do that. Making a dumb restriction like this is just de-featuring your game completely unnecessarily.

5. Get rid of the merchant trades. The tiny number of people that use such offers does not justify inclusion of this artificial feature. The trading regions should be large enough that the economy can be fully player supported. Player run economies are the funnest way to do trading in a game. If you think you need system-generated trades, it means your design or design ideas are flawed. In EVE Online originally a large chunk of the economy was system-generated. Over time, they just phased all that nonsense out and made it a completely player run economy and the game was much better because of it.

6. Allow players to trade coins for goods. The current role of coins in the game is stunted. I am not sure why you want to restrict the game to a barter system. I suppose it prevents gold farmers from exploiting the game, so there is a logic there. However, the price you pay is that the game is a lot less fun and versatile. You may want to consider this change. If you make this change, the market interface should allow both buy and sell orders. Don't make a mistake like WOW where there are only sell orders allowed.
 

DreadfulCadillac

Well-Known Member
Hello, I am new to FOE, but am a very experienced EVE Online player and a trader in EVE. EVE has the best and most sophisticated trading system of any game.

Forge of Empires has a trading system which is very primitive and inferior even to games like World of Warcraft, which has a relatively poor trading system (called the auction house). This is entirely unnecessary, because many of the improvements require little or no changes to the interface, or are otherwise relatively easy to implement.

1. Do not tax trades. I do not know why designers do this. You want to hamper trading? To what purpose? The reasons I have heard justifying taxing trades in different games, whether it be WOW or whatever, make little logical sense. Taxing trades just lowers the volume of trades and the use of that game feature, and there is no good reason to discourage people from using a game feature. If you want to make players work harder for progression, increase the costs of progression. Taxing trades is not the right approach to making the game harder, it just makes it less featured and less enjoyable.

2. Show all the trades. Currently the interface does not show the player's own offered trades. Doh. Who thought that up? A design error like this simply shows that whoever is designing the trading system needs to be replaced with someone who has more experience in real trading and economics. Another blunder.

3. Make your regions explicit. It is ok to regionalize trade, but you should inform the players who the heck is in their region. Who sees my trades? Is it neighbors and guild members and friends, or other people too? This should not be some big mystery. The composition of the trading region should be explicit and known to the traders.

4. Do not restrict trading ratios. The restriction of trade ratios to 2:1 is a completely hare-brained idea. I think the idea here is some kind of market "justice". It recalls the vulgar hatred of "profiteering" or "gouging". A common person hates a merchant because he thinks he is being charged "too much". Everything should have a "fair" price according to the average person. That is the thinking of the common man who has no experience as a businessman. Then, of course, what does the common man do when he goes to sell something? Charge an unrealistic price and complain that there are "not enough buyers". The laws of supply and demand are simple and have been well explained since Adam Smith: let the market set prices. That is what is fair and makes the best system. The 2:1 restriction is dumb at multiple levels. For example, it prevents most trades from widely separated ages. If I want to trade 100 Lumber for 10 Basalt I should be able to do that. Making a dumb restriction like this is just de-featuring your game completely unnecessarily.

5. Get rid of the merchant trades. The tiny number of people that use such offers does not justify inclusion of this artificial feature. The trading regions should be large enough that the economy can be fully player supported. Player run economies are the funnest way to do trading in a game. If you think you need system-generated trades, it means your design or design ideas are flawed. In EVE Online originally a large chunk of the economy was system-generated. Over time, they just phased all that nonsense out and made it a completely player run economy and the game was much better because of it.

6. Allow players to trade coins for goods. The current role of coins in the game is stunted. I am not sure why you want to restrict the game to a barter system. I suppose it prevents gold farmers from exploiting the game, so there is a logic there. However, the price you pay is that the game is a lot less fun and versatile. You may want to consider this change. If you make this change, the market interface should allow both buy and sell orders. Don't make a mistake like WOW where there are only sell orders allowed.
First off, welcome to the game. Some of the stuff that you posted here does not make sense, sorry for any snarkiness. hopefully you understand.
--------------------------------

#1. is 1 fp that big a deal?
#2.Why?
#3. Everyone knows that your neighbors, guild members, and friends see your trade, and thats it.
#4.YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES YES!
#5. i dont really care either wy but no need to remove them they are somtimes usefull and offer a goods sink.
#6.. oh those players with over 1 trillion coins!?unlimited goods for them!YAY! This is a bad idea, no.
@Agent327 @SacreBleu @Lady Marlena since this is unformatted, but a intresting topic, can it please be moved to forge hall or whatever you guys call it now instead of it being closed?ty!
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
#1 - "Always the seller, never the buyer be, 'cause buying costs Forge Points, but selling is free."
#2 - You have a separate tab to see your trades. since you can't buy your trades, there's no need to see them in the market.
#3 - Friends, Neighbors, and Guild mates. Tat is your market to sell into and but from.
#4 - Trade ratios need restriction. There was a time when there were none and Inoo added them due to abuse.
#5 - Merchant Trades are the for emergency. Don;t need them? Don;t use them.
#6 - Doing this would then allow players to not produce goods which would limit the goods available for trade in the market.
 

Osmos

New Member
#1 I understand this---it encourages trades within your guild with no tax
#2 This would be good to see everything in one screen
#3 I did not know this (I am a newby). Better clarification would help.
#4 Maybe not remove, but extend the ratios to near or at the merchant's ratios of 1:10
#5 Emergency access sounds alright
#6 Maybe only for BA goods? For those starting out.

Thanks!
 

jsc29

Active Member
Comments:

On #1 encouraging trades with guild members... If the designers' plan was to create "trading" as a benefit of joining a guild, then they have the wrong idea. There are other, constructive ways to encourage people to join a guild other than damaging the trading system with a tax. Also, I don't really see the need to further coerce people into guilds. The other existing benefits of being in a guild are so enormous that putting a tax on the trading system is unnecessary for this purpose.

The fact that two posters above do not see the benefit of being able to see your own trade kind of illustrates one of my points: the design of the system was clearly made by someone who is not a trader. This is the problem, 95% of people are not traders and do not have a shopkeepers mentality, so they do not understand the culture and technicalities of trading. Maybe get someone who is a certified trader to design your trading system? Seems obvious, but for some reason game software companies never do this.
 

UBERhelp1

Well-Known Member
  1. Non-guild trades are "taxed" because that pushes for players to join a decent guild and trade there, supporting others as well as their selves. It actually opens up the trade economy.
  2. You can see your trades in the "Current Offers" tab. Why would you want your trades cluttering up the main tab when you can't take them yourself?
  3. It isn't a mystery. See replies above,
  4. The trade ratio is restricted to keep players from abusing the trades; an unlocked ratio would increase push accounts.
  5. These exist to pick up desperate players needing a few goods immediately. They aren't meant to be any large part of the game economy.
  6. Coins can be used to produce goods. Coins are very easy to produce in large quantities. Do you know how easy it would be to inflate one's goods supply if this was a thing?

And by the way, if it is so obvious, why don't you tell us the benefit of seeing your own trade in the market?

[EDIT] And to build on #1, this is really to help build a better guild sense of working together.
 

RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
The fact that two posters above do not see the benefit of being able to see your own trade kind of illustrates one of my points: the design of the system was clearly made by someone who is not a trader. This is the problem, 95% of people are not traders and do not have a shopkeepers mentality, so they do not understand the culture and technicalities of trading. Maybe get someone who is a certified trader to design your trading system? Seems obvious, but for some reason game software companies never do this.
You are completely wrong on this. I have trades in the market 24/7. I am fully versed in the trading system, culture and technicalities of a trader. I don't need to see my trades in the market when all my trades show on their own tab.
 

jsc29

Active Member
Ok, let's discuss why a person's trades need to be listed in the general trades and not censored out the way they are now. Here are the main reasons:

(1) If somebody else posts the same trade, or posts the same goods at a better ratio, then in many cases that will influence the trades I post or cause me to cancel a trade that is no longer attractive. If I can't see my own trades stacked up against competing trades, I have no easy way to know if I am posting an unattractive trade or not. For example: let's say I post the trade 20 Glass for 36 Copper. If there is another trade of 20 Glass for only 32 Copper, then my trade is uncompetitive, so I need to remove it or modify it. However, if I can't see my trades in the list, it is hard for me to know if I have unattractive/uncompetitive trades posted. It is not practical to check each trade individually because I have more than 60 trades posted at a given time which are constantly changing. I can't be checking every single one by going to different tabs. I need to see the list of all trades, including my own. This is how EVE works, this is how WOW works. This is how every other game with trades works: you can see your own trades compared to other peoples.

(2) Another reason for showing all trades is so I am not posting duplicate trades. Usually I would rather have 2 trades for different commodities rather than have two identical or similar trades. Since I can't see my trades in the general list and the personal trades tab is not sorted by good, there is no easy way for me to tell if I have duplicate trades posted.

(3) A third reason is so that I can see gaps that I have not covered. For example, let's say I go to the general trade list and see that noone is offering a Lumber for Dye trade. So, that is a gap. If I then fill that gap by setting up that trade, I run the risk that I already have posted a Lumber for Dye trade, so now I have duplicate trades which I do not want. The only way to avoid this is for me to check my own trades first before I fill a gap to make sure that I have not already posted the trade in question. However, unfortunately this is not easy because I have 10 pages of trades. So, now I have to painstakingly page through 10 pages of trades to make sure I have not already filled that gap? That is stupid and frankly not even possible considering the time it would cost to do that. If my trades were listed in the general trade list I could see immediately if I have already covered a gap or not.

These are just three basic reasons why I should be able to see my own trades. Every other game I know like EVE or WOW shows a person's own trades in the main list, because frankly its a no brainer. The fact that multiple posters to this thread don't understand why this is important simply illustrates my point that you should be having serious traders designing your trading system, not amateurs who have little or no experience doing trading for profit.
 

DevaCat

Well-Known Member
Ok, let's discuss why a person's trades need to be listed in the general trades and not censored out the way they are now. Here are the main reasons:

(1) If somebody else posts the same trade, or posts the same goods at a better ratio, then in many cases that will influence the trades I post or cause me to cancel a trade that is no longer attractive. If I can't see my own trades stacked up against competing trades, I have no easy way to know if I am posting an unattractive trade or not. For example: let's say I post the trade 20 Glass for 36 Copper. If there is another trade of 20 Glass for only 32 Copper, then my trade is uncompetitive, so I need to remove it or modify it. However, if I can't see my trades in the list, it is hard for me to know if I have unattractive/uncompetitive trades posted. It is not practical to check each trade individually because I have more than 60 trades posted at a given time which are constantly changing. I can't be checking every single one by going to different tabs. I need to see the list of all trades, including my own. This is how EVE works, this is how WOW works. This is how every other game with trades works: you can see your own trades compared to other peoples.

(2) Another reason for showing all trades is so I am not posting duplicate trades. Usually I would rather have 2 trades for different commodities rather than have two identical or similar trades. Since I can't see my trades in the general list and the personal trades tab is not sorted by good, there is no easy way for me to tell if I have duplicate trades posted.

(3) A third reason is so that I can see gaps that I have not covered. For example, let's say I go to the general trade list and see that noone is offering a Lumber for Dye trade. So, that is a gap. If I then fill that gap by setting up that trade, I run the risk that I already have posted a Lumber for Dye trade, so now I have duplicate trades which I do not want. The only way to avoid this is for me to check my own trades first before I fill a gap to make sure that I have not already posted the trade in question. However, unfortunately this is not easy because I have 10 pages of trades. So, now I have to painstakingly page through 10 pages of trades to make sure I have not already filled that gap? That is stupid and frankly not even possible considering the time it would cost to do that. If my trades were listed in the general trade list I could see immediately if I have already covered a gap or not.

These are just three basic reasons why I should be able to see my own trades. Every other game I know like EVE or WOW shows a person's own trades in the main list, because frankly its a no brainer. The fact that multiple posters to this thread don't understand why this is important simply illustrates my point that you should be having serious traders designing your trading system, not amateurs who have little or no experience doing trading for profit.
Multiple posters understand why this is important to you. It's just not that important to them.

Why should I have to painstakingly page through 10 pages of your trades? I consider that spamming the market, and I won't back any changes to make that even easier for you or anyone else to do.

The other two games you cite as having better trading systems? Perhaps you'd have more fun playing them than trying to change this one to suit the kind of play style you desire.
 

jsc29

Active Member
Yeah, I know you don't care. And 98% of the players in WOW and EVE don't care about traders either. In fact, a lot of them HATE traders. I used to get bad mouthed all the time as a profiteer or whatever.

People hate traders, not sure why, but traders are vital to any economy, including game economies. How do you like it when you have a lot of Alabaster but you need Granite and there are not Granite for Alabaster trades available. You are screwed. What are you going to do? Wait a few days, maybe? Maybe in a week somebody will post the trade you need. Or maybe you could post it yourself and pray. And wait... and wait... and wait....

You insult my hundreds of trades, but every day I make dozens of players happy because they can get the goods they need to progress and move to the next step in the game instead of having to logoff wait.

I think this is what Inno (and most game designers don't realize). When somebody's progression gets blocked because they are waiting for something (like a trade to complete). THEY LOG OFF. So, Inno, want people to logoff. Just keep blocking them and making trading more difficult. If you want people to PLAY the game, let us traders do our work and give us the tools we need to manage a lot of trades.
 

Agent327

Well-Known Member
I think this is what Inno (and most game designers don't realize). When somebody's progression gets blocked because they are waiting for something (like a trade to complete). THEY LOG OFF. So, Inno, want people to logoff. Just keep blocking them and making trading more difficult. If you want people to PLAY the game, let us traders do our work and give us the tools we need to manage a lot of trades.

That really is a terrible argument. This is a game of patience to begin with and you really can not tell what other players do.
 

Emberguard

Well-Known Member
These are just three basic reasons why I should be able to see my own trades. Every other game I know like EVE or WOW shows a person's own trades in the main list, because frankly its a no brainer. The fact that multiple posters to this thread don't understand why this is important simply illustrates my point that you should be having serious traders designing your trading system, not amateurs who have little or no experience doing trading for profit.
Actually I'd have said the "no-brainer" was excluding irrelevant info from the list of trades available for me to accept. I don't need every trade I've got on the market visible to me when searching for a trade to take. It's far more relevant to know
(a) my current inventory stock
(b) either total outgoing/incoming expected or whether I have any trades on the market for the item

Inventory is already visible by clicking on / hovering over a good.
1592260459092.png

Total outgoing/incoming expected would be useful but difficult to provide on mobile devices due to how small phones are. If it were added on desktop I'd want it added in it's own popup panel displayed next to the market so it's not taking up space on the market display

For an indicator of whether we have any trades outgoing/incoming a simple indicator like the mockups below would suffice (could be something else, but a indicator somewhere on the goods icon itself would cause the least display issues)
1592262995659.png

1592263484954.png
 

Emberguard

Well-Known Member
5. Get rid of the merchant trades.
Merchant trades allow players to have access to goods if they need them quicker then waiting on someone to accept a trade. Not everyone knows how to network effectively (or wants to)

The only thing I'd change about system trades is allowing to trade in lump sums. This'd help those that need trades and give value to the related tavern boost. The main two reasons I'd suspect people don't use the merchant is because of the amount of clicks it'd take to get the amount you want and merchant ratio. It'd still be more efficient doing that with your boosted goods and a tavern boost then only using unboosted goods buildings.

1. Do not tax trades.
There's no reason why trades should never be taxed. That fee is very reasonably priced. Having fixed rate taxed trades causes players to favour lump sums reducing the amount of trades on the marketplace. That's a good thing
(1) If I didn't want your first trade offer I won't want the next dozen identical trades
(2) If I want the trade and you've put it into tiny amounts you're wasting my time. It'd be quicker to do quests.

6. Allow players to trade coins for goods
Why does it bother you on how many uses coins have? Coins are there to produce resources and research. If you find coins stunted in use why would anyone accept coins in exchange for goods unless it's a ridiculous amount of coins?

Edit:
How do you like it when you have a lot of Alabaster but you need Granite and there are not Granite for Alabaster trades available. You are screwed. What are you going to do? Wait a few days, maybe? Maybe in a week somebody will post the trade you need. Or maybe you could post it yourself and pray. And wait... and wait... and wait....
Or post trades ahead of your needs to always maintain a fairly even stock level. Doesn't matter how long the trades take if you prepare ahead of time. If you're able to anticipate your needs you won't have a problem
 
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RazorbackPirate

Well-Known Member
Or post trades ahead of your needs to always maintain a fairly even stock level. Doesn't matter how long the trades take if you prepare ahead of time. If you're able to anticipate your needs you won't have a problem
I have 2 simple rules for trading.

1. Trade Early, Trade Often
2. Always a seller, never a buyer be. 'Cause buying costs FPs, but selling is free.

This way I never pay the 'tax' on the trade, and goods wait for me to need them, so I never wait for goods I need.
 
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DevaCat

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I know you don't care. And 98% of the players in WOW and EVE don't care about traders either. In fact, a lot of them HATE traders. I used to get bad mouthed all the time as a profiteer or whatever.

People hate traders, not sure why, but traders are vital to any economy, including game economies. How do you like it when you have a lot of Alabaster but you need Granite and there are not Granite for Alabaster trades available. You are screwed. What are you going to do? Wait a few days, maybe? Maybe in a week somebody will post the trade you need. Or maybe you could post it yourself and pray. And wait... and wait... and wait....

You insult my hundreds of trades, but every day I make dozens of players happy because they can get the goods they need to progress and move to the next step in the game instead of having to logoff wait.

I think this is what Inno (and most game designers don't realize). When somebody's progression gets blocked because they are waiting for something (like a trade to complete). THEY LOG OFF. So, Inno, want people to logoff. Just keep blocking them and making trading more difficult. If you want people to PLAY the game, let us traders do our work and give us the tools we need to manage a lot of trades.
I wouldn't say people hate traders, just that many people intensely dislike the behavior of some traders: posting pages and pages of trades especially predatory trades (not saying you do), clogging up the message center with unwanted neighborhood and friends list threads, and so on.

You may enjoy the notion that you as a trader are vital to the game economy, but the reality is that no trader is vital. It's not that kind of game. There are efficient and less efficient ways to get what one needs. With the example you gave of Albaster and Granite, I have no need for your trades because like @RazorbackPirate I keep trades up in the market all the time. I'm not concerned about how long it takes for those trades to be taken because I monitor my goods inventory so that I don't get too low on anything I need. If I find myself getting low on something, a simple in-guild trade post gets me what I need in minutes (good guild) or hours (not so good guild) -- not days or weeks. If I had to rely on a market trader for this kind of thing I would be playing very inefficiently and that's not how I roll.

If you are putting up hundreds of trades and only making dozens of players happy, that should be telling you something.

And you have no way to know what others do when waiting for a trade to clear. Neither do I, although I doubt logging off is the general action taken. I imagine Inno knows, and if it was a serious concern they'd deal with it. I'm not anti-trader and not trying to tell anyone else how to enjoy their game, just pointing out how someone else's game can negatively impact other people's enjoyment of their games.

There are two areas where traders are valuable to others, and neither involves pages of market spam. Provide goods packages for players who want to build above their age GBs. And with GBG seems there's a market for age-below goods. In both cases your sales would be targeted and in bulk.
 

Emberguard

Well-Known Member
GBG seems there's a market for age-below goods. In both cases your sales would be targeted and in bulk.
yeah for this I’ve been buying 1,000 of each good at a time

to add onto the general trades. @jsc29 what size are your trades? I find lots of 50-100 do quite well for trades you don’t yet have a buyer for. Anything smaller then 20 even at the start of game would be a waste.
 

67Sage101

Active Member
jsc29 said:
I think this is what Inno (and most game designers don't realize). When somebody's progression gets blocked because they are waiting for something (like a trade to complete). THEY LOG OFF. So, Inno, want people to logoff. Just keep blocking them and making trading more difficult. If you want people to PLAY the game, let us traders do our work and give us the tools we need to manage a lot of trades.

That really is a terrible argument. This is a game of patience to begin with and you really can not tell what other players do.

Well said...a game of patience. I.E. spend months of your life logging in to collect goods so they don't get looted, Wake up at 3am to make sure you are tending your village to get that prize for finishing early when there are rocks thrown in your path...literally. And then finally get frustrated by how things progress so slowly that you'll drop $ to buy diamonds and get it done now. Inno has a game alright. Most players think it's a game of patience where we wait forever to get to to the level where we can build the ARC and have goods rolling in 1000 at a time. But long before that the game of seeing $$ has Inno and Agent 327 laughing all the way to the bank. In essence they look at all of us an say, "you want what?"....ha ha ha...NEVER!!!!
 
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