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Inno, you need to fix this

Algona

Well-Known Member
Well, to each their own and I do appreciate your tips. With everyone staying behind don't you find it more difficult leveling? With the points af/of/fe players score for GE alone?

Nope. We were a startup Guild in early 2015. We fumbled around until GE triggered some changes. We've grown to, uhh, let me look...30th ranked in our world. Despite exactly one player above Tomorrow Era. Talk about the? Nope, Guild secret. What about? No, no, no. How about dead wood?

Getting rid of players who care so little for the Guild they will not scrounge up an Obs despite massive Guild support and encouragement has been great for our Guild. I went from booting non-Aiders every week to going many weeks w/o doing so. GE Non-participation has dwindled from almost a thirf to less then 10% and typically most of those are excused.

As it is almost no one in the Guild has to worry about the No Obs No Advancement rule. They can get one early easy enough, and, well, Arcs have started sprouting ip like mushrooms in the fall.
 

DeletedUser26965

Our guild members did not spend thousands of FPs leveling buildings that put medals into the treasury, one does not exist. Our AF/OF players put a lot of time and space into making buildings to pay their way through GvG, the game then made those buildings obsolete.
I understand your point and I agree that it is true that investing so much time and effort to leveling guild goods GB's for the treasury only to have not much use for those treasury goods in AF/OF is a bit of an odd thing to deal with but really would people not have been leveling them anyway? Arc for sure they would have even if they completely took away the goods from it. Obs they would have as most players/guilds aim to get this early on and begin Obs programs so guildmates can get prints for them and such. Leaving Atomium which on one world I wont build because I'm in an established guild with a bounty of AF/OF goods and players who already have it and since I'm in AF with an Obs and Arc there's no point in building it. However on Xyr with all new cities on a new world I will be building Atom. The only real adjustment to make in established guilds if they have a program leveling these GB's is to not include AF/OF and only level Age/Era's below that. So in the end I'm not seeing a real negative issue but I do see some positive issues, like me not having to build Atom, a bounty of AF/OF goods leaving guildmates to use these resources for other things like Promethium and GE negotiations.
 
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DeletedUser26965

The reason the issue exists is because the AF/OF players, having no field of their own, played in future, which would have been fine had their buildings still been producing future era goods.

AF players now have even less of a choice with OF troops being in AA. They think they are killing GvG but what they are killing is any GvG player advancing from future into AF now that they know their goods will be worthless.
This is just so confusing. I agree that people moving into OF will be using OF units onto the AA map. I agree AF players then kind of are stuck not being as useful in AA because of this. What goods have anything to do with that I have no idea. I don't understand why you are tying the issues together like that.
 

DeletedUser26965

their goods will be worthless
This is just fundamentally not true. The AF/OF goods overflowing in established/old guilds do not make those goods worthless. They simply just have less direct utility at this point in the game. The indirect/unintended consequences I've mentioned a few times now you seem to keep missing. Guild members are completely free from worry about donating AF/OF goods allowing them to use said goods for other means they would not have had they needed to contribute to pay for GvG/GE, how anyone can see that as a negative or ignore that fact is beyond me.
 

DeletedUser26120

Inno not putting GvG on mobile for a year+ is a pretty big indicator.

I feel bad for AF players really, they're essentially forced to go up to OF if they wanna play AA.

Our old guild leader released all AA tiles to land away from the only OF player in the world. He's camped in future era so nobody had any chance vs the OF units.

I am sure glad I came to the game late enough to learn from others' mistakes and I won't advance past future era. In fact I don't plan to do any tech that isn't compulsory (quests) so it should last years if need be. I can get troops from gvg, and will eventually unlock goods buildings at a slow pace.

Yep a man with a plan.
 

DeletedUser

That can't be right, my last expansion cost well over a million to lay down.
What he posted is a partial picture of the entire table. It does indeed go on to list expansion (Research/Campaign) costs as well over 1 million down the road.
 

DeletedUser27889

Getting rid of players who care so little for the Guild they will not scrounge up an Obs despite massive Guild support and encouragement has been great for our Guild. I went from booting non-Aiders every week to going many weeks w/o doing so. GE Non-participation has dwindled from almost a thirf to less then 10% and typically most of those are excused.
We too boot non participating members, almost everyone has at least 1 guild GB building, many have 2. But with most of our most hardcore GvG players being in AF or OF their buildings are no longer making the goods they need to GvG. I think our only choice is to continue what we have been doing, which is to not play advanced era GvG anymore.
This is just so confusing. I agree that people moving into OF will be using OF units onto the AA map. I agree AF players then kind of are stuck not being as useful in AA because of this. What goods have anything to do with that I have no idea. I don't understand why you are tying the issues together like that.
Because it's another thing leading AF players to play on the future map and require a plethora of future era goods. Something that would be easily solvable if they could set their guild good GBs to produce FE goods.

This is just fundamentally not true. The AF/OF goods overflowing in established/old guilds do not make those goods worthless. They simply just have less direct utility at this point in the game. The indirect/unintended consequences I've mentioned a few times now you seem to keep missing. Guild members are completely free from worry about donating AF/OF goods allowing them to use said goods for other means they would not have had they needed to contribute to pay for GvG/GE, how anyone can see that as a negative or ignore that fact is beyond me.
Because you're not making any sense. How is it beneficial to the guild to have 12K AF goods a piece? Prior to OF (and more members moving to AF) my guild has not needed to ask for member donations for anything for over a year and we had been more active in GvG. We didn't need donations because we had a plethora of guild goods buildings. The guild is over 2 years old and had stockpiles we weren't even touching because of our GBs.

It is only NOW that they need to donate their own goods/medals to play because they need to play in either AA which is medals or FE because their guild buildings aren't producing useful goods. Which means for an AF player to be self sufficient in GvG they need to either invest in a massive medal farm or forgo producing AF goods to produce FE goods.

I really don't understand this common sense thing you're trying to argue. I get Algona's survival of the fittest point, I might not agree with it but it's understandable, your points are not.

There is nothing, not a thing, that is beneficial to the AF/OF players
Say for instance they kept the same exact model and when AF opened they made an AF map instead that required AF goods to play in. Your top members would advance and you would still be in the same FE situation, nothing would have changed in that regard see?
No, because like all the other times they advanced they had a map to play on which used the goods THEIR buildings created. Instead of using medals or relying on the goods buildings of FE players.

And I want to reiterate something of value that has come from this change. Members don't have to donate AF/OF goods to the treasury because they are overflowing with a bounty of goods! How great is that! Now you can afford to get that damn Promethium.
Members do not use guild treasury to negotiate GE, I know you know that. But that being said, AF/OF players looking to play GvG and let's say negotiate GE to reserve troops would somehow need to find enough room in their cities to produce enough AF/OF goods to negotiate GE, enough goods to play in another GvG map since one using their own goods doesn't exist, troops for the that era as well (with none of their GE unnatached wins helping them out) ALONG with the guild goods buildings they have already put down. Along with having enough space for all of their now virtually obsolete guild gbs.

I don't know if you're in a guild with a small number of guild goods buildings or one that decided not to level everyones, but we put a lot of focus into our guild buildings and currently have 51 buildings spread across 46 members, we worked on our buildings so that we wouldn't have to shell out the costs for GE and GvG. If the costs had suddenly gone up that would have been one thing but they didn't. The best analogy I can try to use for you is it's as if the 'marketplace' in which you needed to spend the goods did not accept the new currency of AF/OF goods so even though AF/OF players did everything right they became the paupers begging their teammates for goods while they trade useless IOU AF/OF goods into our treasury. And none of it is any bit their fault.
 

DeletedUser26965

Well I guess we're just at an impasse then, I find your posts confuse separate issues as connected somehow and you find my posts as confusing. I'm not sure exactly what your complaint is. If it's a lack of goods I gave an answer for that. Why would Inno allow people to choose which era good to make from the 3GB's when it's never been that way? Why does going into AF mean we should suddenly be able to have that ability and not before? Say for instance you have a bunch of PME sectors and a war breaks out. After a protracted war and regaining and refilling your sectors you'll be low on PME goods. So why not complain when all your top players with the 3GB's who went to CE that we shouldn't also have this ability?

(edit) Oh and I think something you're saying is clicking for me. Are you saying AF/OF people can't GvG because the goods from the 3GB's are not used for GvG? And that you want this ability so they can GvG in earlier Ages? Like just so they can play for playing sake? If so I can sort of see your point but really the argument/complaint should be give something for AF/OF players in a guild something to do who don't have the medals for AA or give a GB that gives medals. I'm not sure why Inno chose to use medals as the cost, I'm guessing they looked at the medal count, saw billions and said they needed to do something to give these top guilds to spend medals on.
 
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DeletedUser27889

Why would Inno allow people to choose which era good to make from the 3GB's when it's never been that way?
Because there hasn't been as much of a need to before. Because members can choose to put down and create any goods building from their era or before and produce that era's goods. Many would prefer to create their own goods (which they need for other purposes than guild donate) and have their guild GBs producing the lower aged goods as opposed to vice versa, when the higher aged guild building isn't doing much for them.

Why does going into AF mean we should suddenly be able to have that ability and not before?
The proposal that was voted on and approved by members on this forum never mentioned 'once a member gets to AF' it was to be always so long as that member reached or passed the era they wanted the building to produce. IE A LMA player could set to EMA if they wanted but not FE as they have not reached that age. Just like a member can produce goods on their own of earlier eras.

Say for instance you have a bunch of PME sectors and a war breaks out. After a protracted war and regaining and refilling your sectors you'll be low on PME goods. So why not complain when all your top players with the 3GB's who went to CE that we shouldn't also have this ability?
If that was a problem you were facing the approved proposal would have also been of use. If those top players moved to CE were still fighting in PME and not CE then you're going to have a problem with goods. If those top CE players didn't have a CE map to play in, that's a game problem... where else are they going to play? why can't they pay their way through PME with their supposedly higher valued CE goods? Why can't they exchange their what should be higher value CE goods even 1:1 for the PME they need? Or better yet use the buildings they built and leveled specifically for that purpose to produce the goods they need.
 

DeletedUser26965

Because there hasn't been as much of a need to before.
See it's stuff like that which confuses me. How does the AF/OF 3GB issue connect to that? If your guild had a need for CA goods the day before AA opened they would still need the goods the day after. Them staying in FE would not help this. So why was this not a problem before AA but after it is? The problem of needing the CA goods is the same before and after.
 

DeletedUser27889

See it's stuff like that which confuses me. How does the AF/OF 3GB issue connect to that? If your guild had a need for CA goods the day before AA opened they would still need the goods the day after. Them staying in FE would not help this. So why was this not a problem before AA but after it is? The problem of needing the CA goods is the same before and after.
1. GvG playing member, with guild Gbs to pay for GvG, advances into AF.
2. There is no AF GvG.
3. They play in FE
4. Their buildings are no longer paying out FE goods =lack of FE goods in treasury mass surplus of AF goods in treasury

We, at no point, needed goods prior to the lack of a GvG map which corresponded to the goods being provided by our GvG player's buildings.

I don't know in what other way this could be explained or why it is hard to understand.

If they played in CE instead of FE it would still equal out to CE goods being depleted while AF/OF goods gather dust in mass quantities.

If they chose to play in CA instead it would be CA goods being depleted while AF/OF gather dust.

If they play in AA it would be their medals being depleted while AF/OF gather dust.

No matter how you slice it, the AF/OF goods gather dust and in mass quantities instead of being used for GvG which is what we put those GBs there for and why we leveled them.

There is a very large surplus of goods in our treasury which we can't spend, trade or use and yet we are in need of others. Imagine you worked hard and earned a raise, now your boss pays you a $100 bill instead of a $50. But everything you need costs $50 and you aren't able to make change, or even pay the extra $50 for it since you need it. You're stuck with $100 bill in your wallet that is useless and a 'raise' that has now left you destitute and needing to work a second job for the $50 bill you need. That is the conundrum AF/OF GvG players find themselves in.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
You keep ignoring the fact that the treasury goods aren't the entire reason people 'work' to level some of these GBs. Or does the other half of the Arc not matter to you? Either way, your GBs aren't 'obsolete' and there's nothing that needs 'fixing'.
 

DeletedUser26965

1. GvG playing member, with guild Gbs to pay for GvG, advances into AF.
2. There is no AF GvG.
3. They play in FE
Let's stop right there. #1 and #2 are statements of fact. #3 is a choice. You want Inno to change the entire structure of the game in relation to the 3GB's so you can choose to play in ages lower than the one you're in. Is that right?
 

DeletedUser27889

Let's stop right there. #1 and #2 are statements of fact. #3 is a choice.
3rd is the choice the players were left with after inno changed the structure of the game.

I didn't create this topic to argue. This proposal was already voted, passed and submitted to inno who have since ignored it. This is not a proposal thread.

https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com...r-treasury-gbs-to-give-unrefined-goods.15526/ This proposal passed with over 93%

The same proposal passed in 2014, when it was less of an issue with 89%
https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/great-building-the-observatory.6483/

This is of course prior to you turning every forum thread into your own personal high school debate club. Even when someone tries to ignore you to not be roped in arguing or explaining themselves 10 different ways, you then double and triple post to make sure every thread is an argument. It's exhausting, if you disagree with something (which seems to just be everything) say so and move on. This is the FoE forum not the SJS debate hour.
 

DeletedUser24787

what other uses do Guild Treasury goods from AF and OF serve beyond the contribution efforts for GE?
 
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DeletedUser24347

This is just fundamentally not true. The AF/OF goods overflowing in established/old guilds do not make those goods worthless. They simply just have less direct utility at this point in the game. The indirect/unintended consequences I've mentioned a few times now you seem to keep missing. Guild members are completely free from worry about donating AF/OF goods allowing them to use said goods for other means they would not have had they needed to contribute to pay for GvG/GE, how anyone can see that as a negative or ignore that fact is beyond me.
Absolutely with the goods overflowing it makes them worthless. The GBs will continue to generate the goods, and you will never exhaust your current supply of said goods, thus any further production of those goods are by definition worthless. This issue has existed since AFE came out well over a year ago and it's gone completely unadressed. To suggest that they "may" fix it at some point in the future which "may" make them have value again at such a fictional date and time is morally dishonest.

As for why this is a problem, here ya go:
OFE player can fight in All Ages, if they attempt to fight in Future Era they will deplete the guild's supply of Goods faster than they can produce them, while the GB's that they've spent THOUSANDS of FP on sit there spitting out completely worthless (at this point) OFE goods to the treasury.

AFE players have the same problem with the goods, but they can't even fight effectively on the All Ages map because OFE troops are considerably better than AFE troops.

Algona and you have both admitted you are in guilds that have not reached this problem yet, so please quit commenting on issues which you don't fully understand.
 

DeletedUser26965

Absolutely with the goods overflowing it makes them worthless. The GBs will continue to generate the goods, and you will never exhaust your current supply of said goods, thus any further production of those goods are by definition worthless. This issue has existed since AFE came out well over a year ago and it's gone completely unadressed. To suggest that they "may" fix it at some point in the future which "may" make them have value again at such a fictional date and time is morally dishonest.

As for why this is a problem, here ya go:
OFE player can fight in All Ages, if they attempt to fight in Future Era they will deplete the guild's supply of Goods faster than they can produce them, while the GB's that they've spent THOUSANDS of FP on sit there spitting out completely worthless (at this point) OFE goods to the treasury.

AFE players have the same problem with the goods, but they can't even fight effectively on the All Ages map because OFE troops are considerably better than AFE troops.

Algona and you have both admitted you are in guilds that have not reached this problem yet, so please quit commenting on issues which you don't fully understand.
My guild has a hellava lot more goods than what the OP showed, perhaps you should not comment on things you don't know. Worthless defined means having no value and if you can't see the value when I have already pointed it out in the exact comment you quoted then perhaps you should also improve your comprehension skills.

I could easily agree to the fact that A/A/O makes fighting in GvG more accessible when you have all your guildmembers with A/A/O in Age/Era below AF but I can repeat this all day long if you like, the same is true of any previous Age/Era and if it's true for all Age/Era's previous then this has nothing to do with the AA map model. If all your guild members with A/A/O are in Colonial Age then that age GvG will be easily paid for, of course depending on how may members, levels of GB's, sectors, activity etc. If all those members advance in age then now your guild has to think of other ways other than A/A/O to pay for GvG for the previous Age/Eras. And if a guild wants to fight in a Province to which they have surpassed then I have also provided the answer to that as well.

I do also agree that with the more expansions that become available, and with them stronger better units, then those in AF will be of less to no use in AA and as such if they want to play the AA map they will have to progress in the tech tree. I believe it would have been better for Inno to keep their traditional map model. But asking for A/A/O to change to making any Age/Era goods won't really remedy those issues, it'll only make it easier for more established guilds to dominate more than they already do in GvG.
 

qaccy

Well-Known Member
I'll just keep saying until I'm blue in the face that there's no problem here. Treasury GBs were a mistake in regards to GvG, especially once Arc levels exploded and caused treasuries to almost literally overflow, that Inno's since corrected by adding the AA map and having it cost medals instead of goods. Enjoy the benefits while able, and once you hit AF enjoy not having to ever manually pay your way for GE unlock costs.
 
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