Let's Talk Obamacare

[DeletedUser8204]

Liberals will reply just cause.. their response will be meaningless attempting to evade the topic at hand by trying to discredit the information provided while adding nothing but opinion or rude remarks.

Democratic Senators and President Obama lied about the health plan. Very simply it was clearly explained if you wanted to keep your current plan you could.

Tell that to the 6 million that have already forcibly lost their coverage.

My source is C-span coverage of President Obama saying everyone could keep their coverage if they wanted to before it was pushed through.

Direct from the liars mouth.

Everything beyond that is worse as could be expected when it starts with a lie about something so basic in the plan.

Conservative, libertarian, liberal or tree hugger if you think it's OK to mislead Americans who you lead I hope you rethink your stance on a few matters.

 

[DeletedUser]

Bull. We're in this situation because you conservatives went off the cliff 30 years ago and decided the to start an all-out class war on behalf of the rich, and against the poor and middle classes.

I didn't want to vote for Obama. He was, however, far better then the "all-out war, all the time, against everybody" McCain, and also then "Everyone but the rich gets to die in horrible agony so the rich can compete with each other in more fun ways" Romney. Next time Republicans put out a not completely insane candidate during a presidential election I would be happy to vote for him.

I think you may be confused as to what a war on classes actually is. If you have done your research then you would say that the democrats have the war on classes. But if you listen to the extreme radical left channels and pundits then you would say its the Dirty Republicans fault. This isn't hard to research and figure out. Democrats have the real war on poverty and middle class over the last 100+ years.

Republicans ARE for the middle class. Plain and simple. They know this is where the country gets its innovations and this is where dreams become reality. They want the poor to make it out of poverty and into the middle class to . To do this you can't just give constant handouts to the poor and expect them to work hard and get out of poverty. The opposite happens. Make someone comfortable in their poverty and they won't want to get out of poverty. This is where the Left comes in. They are the ones against the poor and middle class. Ever wonder why hard working people who built something from the ground up without constant handouts and with their own hands are usually(but not always) Republican or Conservative? They did it them selves and didn't take the easy road. The Dems brought us social programs where middle and upper class pay for the poor so the poor stay poor and vote for the Dems because they get free stuff. Welfare is a good idea for an extremely short time. Giving a hand out is bad for people. But giving them a hand UP is good. Helping them get on THEIR OWN feet is great. They can then start doing for themselves and be a productive part of society. Letting them stay on welfare and bill assistance and housing assistance and free phones ect.. is not helping them. Its letting them sit and stay in poverty with no desire to get out of it. It forces the middle and upper class to support them forever. Same with Obama Care. It forces people to support others. Forcing someone to do something is ALWAYS bad.

Many of the statements in this thread are so false it is mind boggling.
If you are in a state that opts out of Obama Care then you don't have to pay more for Healthcare because your state opted out.. You will see a rise in costs due to Obama Care making costs go up in general but outside of that it won't be more just cause the state opted out.
Mitt wants people to die in horrible agony? Say what? Explain please. And don't bring the lady who died cause her husband lost his job and Mitt closed the company story. Its false and everyone knows it.
I don't like McCain but... he wants war on everything all the time? HUH? I don't like the guy at all but I don't agree with you on that.

I'm confused by your comment.. "I think many people on the actual left (as opposed to what the media calls the far left, which is mostly center-right media figures and politicians, like Obama) recognize that Obama has thrown us under the bus in any number of ways." Are you saying Obama is in the center-right or the people calling him on the far left are in the center-right? Because he is extremely far left. There is a huge difference between left and Democrat or right and Republican. And a difference in Democrat and Progressive or Republican and Conservative. Progressives are on both sides. I would venture a guess that most of the bad guys on the right that you don't like are progressive. And the people on the left that Republicans don't like are progressives. Progressives are the problem. Most people on the left have taken a hold of that name and have no clue what it means or what it stands for and who started it and what they were trying to accomplish. This is important to understand. The things that were put into effect that have a desired effect over the long term is absolutely evil.
Please bring more than just talking points you heard on the Extreme Radical Left news channels.

TL;DR
Read it anyways.

 

[DeletedUser11287]

Bull. We're in this situation because you conservatives went off the cliff 30 years ago and decided the to start an all-out class war on behalf of the rich, and against the poor and middle classes.

Who do you think feels the hit of the ACA? The rich guy who can pay whatever he has to for elite insurance that is unlikely to be pooled with very many who were previously uninsured? Or the middle class family who now has to foot the bill for patients who are known losses to the insurance company before they sign up?

If it is known a person will cost more for care than they pay in premiums before they sign up, that is not insurance. Period. Insurance is pooled risk, not pooled liability.

I didn't want to vote for Obama. He was, however, far better then the "all-out war, all the time, against everybody" McCain, and also then "Everyone but the rich gets to die in horrible agony so the rich can compete with each other in more fun ways" Romney. Next time Republicans put out a not completely insane candidate during a presidential election I would be happy to vote for him.

Romney was a terrible candidate, and a bad liar. But not wanting to pay a third of the country to not contribute isn't elitist. It's simple rationality. The fuel to an economy is productivity and welfare rewards the opposite. It isn't sustainable to have more people on some sort of welfare than working full time. It's simply not.

 

[DeletedUser]

A good start

If it is known a person will cost more for care than they pay in premiums before they sign up, that is not insurance. Period. Insurance is pooled risk, not pooled liability.

A very good point. That's why we need HEALTH CARE rather than insurance. Obama Care was what they could get passed. It was never intended to be a solution, it was simply a start ... It's now in effect and !!! the sky hasn't fallen. Has it ...? The conservative's predictions of DOOM were proven false, health care concepts got a small boost. The very real problems and shortcomings of Obama Care are being recognized as fixable and solutions are now being sought OTHER than totally dismantling public health care. Elect a few more democratic congressmen this fall and watch them take the next step.

Romney was a terrible candidate, and a bad liar.

You got that Right! But he also wasn't a rabid dog radical conservative. This is the biggest problem the Republican's face, they can't nominate a real moderate willing to accept progress on issues like Heath Care & Women's Rights and support constitutional restriction on religious activity in government. And this new Foreign Investment Disclosure law is just going to make it harder for a moderate Republican to find support.


EVZ

 

[DeletedUser11287]

A very good point. That's why we need HEALTH CARE rather than insurance. Obama Care was what they could get passed. It was never intended to be a solution, it was simply a start ... It's now in effect and !!! the sky hasn't fallen. Has it ...? The conservative's predictions of DOOM were proven false, health care concepts got a small boost. The very real problems and shortcomings of Obama Care are being recognized as fixable and solutions are now being sought OTHER than totally dismantling public health care. Elect a few more democratic congressmen this fall and watch them take the next step.

The government cannot afford to keep increasing their payouts to people who don't carry their load. It simply can't. Public health care is not an option and neither is anything resembling the ACA. We have more people on some form of welfare than full time workers as a nation. It's not viable and you can't expect those of us who contribute to foot the load for those who don't.

This is the land of opportunity and that still holds. Your options to make something of yourself are abundant and I cannot be held responsible if you choose not to. Choices have consequences and when you take them away you encourage bad choices.

You got that Right! But he also wasn't a rabid dog radical conservative. This is the biggest problem the Republican's face, they can't nominate a real moderate willing to accept progress on issues like Heath Care & Women's Rights and support constitutional restriction on religious activity in government. And this new Foreign Investment Disclosure law is just going to make it harder for a moderate Republican to find support.


EVZ

His policy wasn't terrible. He knows business and he knows the economy, and that should have been the priority. Obama would lose an economic debate to someone off the street. But he was a worse liar than Obama (we didn't find out about his atrocious lies until after reelection) and that isn't electable.

Health Care wasn't broken. Costs are somewhat high but have been raised astronomically by the ACA. We cannot as a nation foot the bill of people who don't put themselves in a position to succeed. To be broke at thirty, you have to be either absurdly unintelligent or have a long history of terrible decisions. This isn't some third world country where opportunities don't exist. If you repeatedly refuse take advantage of them, you deserve nothing. No food, no health care, no roof over your head, nothing. Life is earned and until people realize that again, we will continue to be dragged backwards as a nation.

 

[DeletedUser]

Yes we can, Yes we can, can ...

Public health care is not an option

Yes it is ... Sweden can do it, Canada can do it, for god's sake ! Argentina can do it, NICARAUGA can do it ... but the United States, leader of the free world and savior of the planet CAN'T do it ??? Get real ! You, and those like you, just don't WANT to do it ... and so all of you will be dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century, like it or not.

Your options to make something of yourself are abundant and I cannot be held responsible if you choose not to

Want'a Bet ? This is a DEMOCRACY, you can and WILL be held to the decisions it makes, or you can go somewhere else and see how you like THEIR way of doing things. Simple reality ...

But he was a worse liar than Obama

Well, that's a Republican tradition ... He wasn't nearly as bad as the Republican Presidents we've had since Nixon, one of whom failed to reveal he was a war criminal who machine gunned unarmed merchant sailors in lifeboats ... Opposition to health care isn't really a big surprise. Nit picking aside, Obama hasn't LIED about anything that wasn't a national security concern at the time. His basic platform was CHANGE, and that's what he's doing, even with the carcass of he Republican Party tied around his neck and his hands tied behind his back.

You deserve nothing. No food, no health care, no roof over your head, nothing. Life is earned and until people realize that again, we will continue to be dragged backwards as a nation.

How VERY aristocratic. Sounded real good in the 12th century. Got a lot of Rich French beheaded in the 18th. Some of us have leaned a lot since then. Life is not earned, it's a gift, and a treasure that cannot be valued in $$$. But greedy people value everything in $$$, don't they?

EricVonZipper

 

[DeletedUser11287]

"If you like your health care you can keep it". Right. No lies from him.


If you don't contribute you deserve to starve, and you deserve for it to be slow and painful. Society has no place for freeloaders. Carry your weight. You aren't owe a thing.


As to your examples of other countries with socialized healthcare, they are almost exclusively massively inferior to the US in health care. Guess where anyone from Canada who can afford it gets their care? Government is inherently inefficient, and the inefficiencies rise exponentially as the population it has to govern does.

 

[DeletedUser]

Argument for the sake of argument isn't an argument - - - Yes it is!

"If you like your health care you can keep it". Right. No lies from him.

Quoting a statement out of context doesn't make it a lie. The LAW didn't cancel any ones Health Plan. People who wanted to DID keep their insurance, I did ... The fact that insurers CHANGED and CANCELLED policies is beyond the scope of the governments authority or foreknowledge. I can' help but wonder how you would have responded to the government FORCEING private companies to maintain existing policies ... Is THAT what you wanted? This common "Proof" that Obama is a liar is extremely lame and clearly illustrate the difficulties those on the Radical Right have in discrediting him.

If you don't contribute you deserve to starve, and you deserve for it to be slow and painful. Society has no place for freeloaders. Carry your weight. You aren't owe a thing.

Sorry, The Constitution Of The USA disagrees. Refer to Thomas Jefferson's thoughts, "endowed by their creator," inalienable rights," life, liberty, pursuit of happiness," YOUR statement is a LOT CLOSER to the Gospel according to Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden, etc. Why not move to Iran? See how you like it?

Government is inherently inefficient

No, BUEAUCRACY is inherently inefficient. Bill Clinton delivered on his promise to DO SOMETHING about that. They rejected HIS health care proposal anyway. He ended his Presidency with an economic surplus that Republican George Bush Jr. used to BUY the votes that elected him (wasn't THAT a efficient use of public funds!)

EricVonZipper

 

[DeletedUser]

And NOW for something COMPLETELY different !!!

Rather than continue the typical radical conservative dialog that seems to be what's left of this thread ... is anyone interested in considering the FUTURE ? What comes next ? Personally I think it's possible, and I would favor the evolution of a government sponsored program based on the Credit Union model. Just like Credit Unions, it would begin with small, non profit, insurance cooperatives underwritten by the federal government. Employers could be encouraged, and should find it attractive, to sponsor these Insurance Unions as a means of reducing the costs of employee benefits. HMO type plans could be offered, but like credit unions, local membership would determine the terms, co-pays, and limitations, based on realistic values rather than profit potential, with any profits earned being returned as dividends to Insurance Union members. I'm SURE the Large Corporate Insurance Providers aren't going to like this ... They would have to COMPETE (that used to be expected). I doubt Corporate Care Providers will like it either as competition amongst insurance providers will undoubtedly apply pressure to reduce the costs of medical care and the profits made by it's providers. I expect the Doctors and Technicians would LOVE IT as it would undoubtedly decrease growing corporate authority over HOW they are ALLOWED to treat patients. I think this is a DOABLE concept and a positive evolution from Obama-care. Credit Unions have been a GREAT SUCCESS and provide a popular alternative to traditional banking. Insurance Unions offer very similar options.

EricVonZipper

 

[DeletedUser11287]

Quoting a statement out of context doesn't make it a lie. The LAW didn't cancel any ones Health Plan. People who wanted to DID keep their insurance, I did ... The fact that insurers CHANGED and CANCELLED policies is beyond the scope of the governments authority or foreknowledge. I can' help but wonder how you would have responded to the government FORCEING private companies to maintain existing policies ... Is THAT what you wanted? This common "Proof" that Obama is a liar is extremely lame and clearly illustrate the difficulties those on the Radical Right have in discrediting him.

Complete and utter lies. The Government did cancel millions of plans, by adding absurd "essential coverage requirements" including drug therapy, maternal care for single males, and a long list of other requirements, declaring any plan that did not have those plans unacceptable to offer.

Sorry, The Constitution Of The USA disagrees. Refer to Thomas Jefferson's thoughts, "endowed by their creator," inalienable rights," life, liberty, pursuit of happiness," YOUR statement is a LOT CLOSER to the Gospel according to Hitler, Stalin, Bin Laden, etc. Why not move to Iran? See how you like it?

No, it doesn't. Where does the3 Constitution say you have the right to be a lazy scum? Where does it say you deserve a single penny handed to you? It don't. If you choose to be a waste of life, that is on you, not on people whom actually contribute.

No, BUEAUCRACY is inherently inefficient. Bill Clinton delivered on his promise to DO SOMETHING about that. They rejected HIS health care proposal anyway. He ended his Presidency with an economic surplus that Republican George Bush Jr. used to BUY the votes that elected him (wasn't THAT a efficient use of public funds!)

EricVonZipper

GOVERNMENT IS BEAUROCRACY. There is no such thing as an efficient government program or expenditure on anything resembling the scale of the US. It isn't possible, never has happened, and never will.

 

[DeletedUser]

Just the facts ..... PLEASE !!!

Complete and utter lies. The Government did cancel millions of plans, by adding absurd "essential coverage requirements"

Can you document ONE government order canceling ONE insurance policy? NO, you can't because they DIDN'T. Responsible insurance companies (like mine) complied with the law and adjusted policies as required. Rip Off companies providing sub-standard coverage either closed their doors or cancelled polices in wholesale lots (probably a good thing). Mr. Obama was NOT speaking for the Insurance industry ... The law didn't cancel ANY insurance policy. No Desperate Radical Right Accusations can change the facts.

including drug therapy,>>> maternal care for single males,<<< and a long list of other requirements,

Maternal Care For Single Males ??? What ? Counseling for expectant fathers ??? Again, probably a GOOD idea. Should include at least a 2 year prescription for valium.

Where does the3 Constitution say you have the right to be a lazy scum? Where does it say you deserve a single penny handed to you? It don't. If you choose to be a waste of life, that is on you, not on people whom actually contribute.

This is getting old ... read the preamble, "promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity." Do you NEED to see the Supreme Courts ruling about the Preamble setting the context for everything that comes after ? FREE PUBLIC HEALTH CARE most certainly "promotes the general Welfare" and the "Blessings of Liberty" preclude any necessity for servitude as a qualification to participate in that "General Welfare." It's an OLD ISSUE that was beaten to death during FDR's -NEW DEAL-. Parroting Radical Right Rhetoric will only get you so far ... Maybe devote a little time to comprehending what this country REALLY is and a little less listening to Rush Limbaugh want-a-bees.

EricVonZipper

 

[DeletedUser11287]

Not counseling. Insurance that covers pregnancy is required whether there is a chance you will need it or not. Any plan not meeting the requirements established became no longer legal. So yes, the law did cancel millions of plans.



Taking money from hard working people to pay for the scum of the earth is not "promoting the general welfare". It is actively evolving our portion of humanity heavily downwards.

 

[DeletedUser]

Crying Time Again

Not counseling. Insurance that covers pregnancy is required whether there is a chance you will need it or not.

Well gee ... I don't recall ANY Ins. Policy I ever had that was GENDER specific, or RACE specific, or RELIGION specific ... But I guess if Obama uses the same context the Insurance companies do, that makes HIM a liar ...

Any plan not meeting the requirements established became no longer legal. So yes, the law did cancel millions of plans.

Sorry, that's called RATIONALIZATION ... "it -IS- because I WANT it to be" Your slightly bent logic is like saying they made a law requiring car dealers to include TIRES with every car they sell ... Then when Obama say's - Hey! If you like your Studebaker, you can still buy your Studebaker ... you call him a LIAR when Studebaker goes out of business. Please note, using RATIONLIZATION 1 + 1 = 3. RATIONALIZATION = Sadam Hussain is a nasty guy so Iraq HAS weapons of mass destruction. RATIONALIZTION = Richard Nixon saying "If the President does it - it's NOT illegal." You might like it, but that bird won't fly.

Taking money from hard working people to pay for the scum of the earth is not "promoting the general welfare".

And calling people you don't like names doesn't impress or intimidate anyone. It just identifies weak and immature social values.
That argument failed when they used it regarding social security and it hasn't improved with age.

EricVonZipper

 

[DeletedUser11287]

Of course they were. You could buy plans that offered features you needed, and many males had plans with no maternity coverage because it was impossible they would need such coverage.



Wrong. Adding features already makes it not the same plan. Using your car analogy, they made motorcycles illegal and people who had motorcycles were SOL.


If you are on welfare, you are worthless scum, period. Society depends on contribution from all, and those who refuse to contribute are not worthy of its benefits. If you are on welfare, you deserve to starve slowly and painfully. There is no middle ground. If you do not contribute enough to feed yourself, you are a parasitic tic on society, and need to be removed.

 

[DeletedUser]

Fossils

If you are on welfare, you are worthless scum, period.

Yeah, "let them eat cake." You're VERY lucky to live in a country that tolerates such madness.

Society depends on contribution from all, and those who refuse to contribute are not worthy of its benefits.

Big difference between CAN'T and WON'T. FEUDAL SOCIETY depends on contribution from all, it excludes and punishes those who don't contribute. We passed that point about 500 years ago. Since then the WORLD has been steadily moving towards a SOCIALIST SOCIETY (simple fact) in which each person contributes what they can and receives what they need. You don't have to LIKE that fact, but refusing to accept it as a fact is delusional. There are delusional want-a-bee aristocrats that THINK the world can return to a FEUDAL state. They are doomed, just like the dinosaurs ... They make a lot of noise, get in the way, and obstruct progress. But the >>>modern<<< world is kind to dumb animals who don't realize that THEY are the ones who are failing to contribute.

If you are on welfare, you deserve to starve slowly and painfully. There is no middle ground. If you do not contribute enough to feed yourself, you are a parasitic tic on society, and need to be removed.

If you think about it ... Those who DON'T contribute, do NOTHING, they just exist and consume. Like an awful lot of RICH PEOPLE who inherited their fortunes do ... The ONLY thing they do is JUSTIFY the services and goods provided to them. Which is the SAME THING poor people on welfare do. The ONLY significant difference is ATTITUDE.

 

[DeletedUser11119]

y is this here????

 

[DeletedUser]

Where have You been for the last 8 years ?

y is this here????

Because Right Wing (Clueless Clux Clan, Neo Nazis, Tea Party Republicans) must take every chance they can get to SLAM President Obama ...

EVZ

 

[DeletedUser9808]

Fact is, free ride has been set-up for a very long time! Another fact is unless you can curse in a foreign language you will not be helped within your own country!

 

[DeletedUser11338]

Because Right Wing (Clueless Clux Clan, Neo Nazis, Tea Party Republicans) must take every chance they can get to SLAM President Obama ...

EVZ

no the problem is to many humans are lazy by nature and will take what ever is given them.

 

[DeletedUser16209]

The facts are what they are -- and they are ugly for the majority of people (who happen not to be wealthy) regarding Obamacare living in the United States. It is based on greed and serves those that could easily afford better healthcare out of their own pockets. The corporate powers and politicians have a stranglehold on our healthcare system and there is very little hope it will ever change. It would require a huge systemic change of our "capitalist" system that the both, the corporate powers and the politicians would oppose or consider "non-American" or "unpatriotic". It is actually quite sad.