Life

[DeletedUser]

dead end, like a road that comes in a housing division and loops back out...
Yeah
its just a story. like pinochio
Maybe they should watch Zardos (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0070948/).... It made me see things around me a bit different.


hee hee, he said evidence....

 

[DeletedUser]

Ohhh, okay. I know what a cul-de-sak is--I live one--I just didn't get how you meant it in that context.

 

[DeletedUser]

Nice, parking must be a breeze....

 

[DeletedUser34]

well obviously none of you can read....That is all I am going to say on the matter.

 

[DeletedUser]

we live in a world of constant balance between extremes, this is how we continue to progress, because if one extreme were to win over another completly, all that lost extreme could teach us would forever be gone. the religious keep us morale, the athiests keep the religious in check and the agnostics continue to enjoy the best of both worlds

 

[DeletedUser]

Perhaps, but in each of those camps, there lies a scale as well. from the "I was born a xyz , but i don't practice", to the "Silence! I'll kill you!" types. Like an agnostic, I am somewhere on the fence (lol, a bible quote)... Just because someone says they cannot prove something it should not be taken as fact. Likewise when someone says there is a deity that made you and wants you to take it at that face value.
Light debate is OK. Fervor becomes dangerous. Zealousness is mere justification for contradicting actions (regardless of your camp)
Science is a young philosophy and it too can be perforated cleanly with questions. The fact about science is that conjectures to repeatable answers (E.g.: Water boils at 212 degrees at sea level, every time) and proven hypotheses are the building blocks to its language. Religion is an accord between peoples of the same fears to accumulate some sense of safety and comfort to existing problems that tend to repeat themselves inexplicably (dead baby syndrome, coughs, etc.) These two opposing ideologies are only opposing because they are based on two different foundations. Science is beginning to understand why, and religion is loosing members because fears are now explained and shed light by reason. Soon, like I stated, admittance to it being more superstition than "fact" will plague the church...
I just want to live long enough to see it, so when I die, I can tell God, see, I told you I could make them loose faith in you...

 

[DeletedUser]

the religious keep us morale

No. Just. No. Wrong, false, incorrect, absolutely not. Even if I believed in objective morality, this would not be true. What keeps us moral is a combination of natural compassion and social norms. I was raised by atheists and I do not need the promise of heaven or the threat of hell to be a good person, and I do not need anyone to explain to me that hurting people is bad and helping people is good.

 

[DeletedUser]

No. Just. No. Wrong, false, incorrect, absolutely not. Even if I believed in objective morality, this would not be true. What keeps us moral is a combination of natural compassion and social norms. I was raised by atheists and I do not need the promise of heaven or the threat of hell to be a good person, and I do not need anyone to explain to me that hurting people is bad and helping people is good.

Quite true. The idea that morality arises from religion is one I've never understood.

 

[DeletedUser]

The only sure thing that comes from religion is torture, beheading and murder.

 

[DeletedUser]

No. Just. No. Wrong, false, incorrect, absolutely not. Even if I believed in objective morality, this would not be true. What keeps us moral is a combination of natural compassion and social norms. I was raised by atheists and I do not need the promise of heaven or the threat of hell to be a good person, and I do not need anyone to explain to me that hurting people is bad and helping people is good.

Morality stems from the social norm, which is created by religion. European (and subsequently American, Canadian, Australian, etc) social norms stem from Christian moral values, Middle Eastern social norms stem from Islamic moral values, Asian social norms stem from Buddhist/Confucian/Hindu moral values. Whether or not you personally are religious, religion has shaped our culture since its inception, whether you'd like to admit it or not.

Take the ten commandments for example, obviously excluding those that demand worship:
Honour thy father and thy mother: being a spoiled brat is bad.
Thou shalt not kill: it is illegal to commit murder.
Thou shalt not commit adultery: affairs are scandalous.
Thou shalt not steal: it is illegal to commit theft.
Thou shalt not bear false witness: lying ain't cool, and in some instances is even illegal.
Thou shalt not covet: jealousy is considered a negative thing by most.

 

[DeletedUser]

Thou shalt not covet: jealousy is considered a negative thing by most.

Coveting fuels the economy

 

[DeletedUser]

Morality stems from the social norm, which is created by religion. European (and subsequently American, Canadian, Australian, etc) social norms stem from Christian moral values, Middle Eastern social norms stem from Islamic moral values, Asian social norms stem from Buddhist/Confucian/Hindu moral values. Whether or not you personally are religious, religion has shaped our culture since its inception, whether you'd like to admit it or not.

So then are you saying that there was no morality or social norms before religion?

I agree, morality comes from following the social norm. But the way I see it, social norms and morality existed long before religion. And just because religion coincides with these social norms doesn't mean that religion gave way to social norms, and by extension, morality.

 

[DeletedUser]

So then are you saying that there was no morality or social norms before religion?

I agree, morality comes from following the social norm. But the way I see it, social norms and morality existed long before religion. And just because religion coincides with these social norms doesn't mean that religion gave way to social norms, and by extension, morality.

Exactly. Consider how similar values are across cultures. Stealing is bad, lying is bad, breaking promises is bad, violence and killing are only acceptable in defense, pretty sure adultery upsets people regardless of religion... Some norms are the result of religion, sure, but the basics of morality are there regardless.

Are you familiar with social contract theory? That's where a lot of rules come from, not mythology. I don't like it when you steal my goat and you don't like it when I steal your sheep, so we agree not to steal from each other. Stealing upsets people and creates chaos, so it is regarded as bad. This is of course very simplified.

 

[DeletedUser]

I agree that religion did not "create" morality, it was a tool to teach morality, even the greek myths were stories of moral. (which, by the way, were older than our bibles storys yet so many believe the bible to be the first book of morals) unfortanatly, it also became a tool to control society. We have gone from learning from the gods to being afraid of our one and only god, this thanks to, not jesus, but the rise of the church during the middle ages.

 

[DeletedUser34]

I agree that religion did not "create" morality, it was a tool to teach morality, even the greek myths were stories of moral. (which, by the way, were older than our bibles storys yet so many believe the bible to be the first book of morals) unfortanatly, it also became a tool to control society. We have gone from learning from the gods to being afraid of our one and only god, this thanks to, not jesus, but the rise of the church during the middle ages.

hmmmm, if you are going to throw the bible under a bus...you should at least make sure its crimes are accurate. The old testament actually predates Rome....I know semanitcs...but since the first book of morals (not moral laws) but ethics was Proverbs...I'd say you would be missing something pretty important in your allegation...

SOOOOO I would say you need to connect the dots on your logic. Secondly, Religion did create morality. Since the beginning of time there was a religion. There have been other religions than Christianity.... Truth is, Paganism is older than Christianity. Since religion has always played a key point in society and its formation, I would guess to say, that is something else you are mistaken about.

 

[DeletedUser]

yes the greeks were pagan and had a civilization before rome was a great empire and the stories in the bible were stories before they were written word. the bible was a canon of great moral stories gathered into one book, the bible as we know it today were written (interpreted from hebrew into english and many other languages) by monks. i do know pagan (such a broad spectrum, since paganism is considered by christians as any religion besides christianity) religions have been around since the begining of "civilization" but it was man who developed religion to teach morals and science (how the world worked and why). so i still stand on my belief that religion did not create morality, but i will add that philosiphers did.

 

[DeletedUser34]

AND riddle me this...the old testament is the Torah of the Jews, not fully part of the modern bible, but considered a key part of it...so you are saying that the Torah doesn't count?

And you would be wrong, Pagan is pagan....it is a religion in itself, even christians know this. Now you are possible thinking Heathen, and I can see where you would be mistaken. Now back to my point...because if you must use the bible as an example, make it accurate....The bible PREDATES Rome......or is it easier for you to grasp the OLD TESTAMENT predates Rome? Proverbs for sure does.

 

[DeletedUser]

i don't know what rome has to do with this conversation, i never said the bible wasn't old, in fact the "stories" in the bible (which are a chronicle of history as well) predate written word. so when you speak of pagan, are you meaning celtic pagan?

- - - Updated - - -

pagan is from latin meaning country dweller and was used to describe polythesic religions. which the celtic religion would have fallen into this category, but so do most pre judaic religions

 

[DeletedUser]

How is this for a social contract? I do not like that you have goats and sheep, while I have nothing. I use violence as offense and not defense. I take your goat and sheep and now I have and you dont. Now you have two choices. You can convert to the dark side and take them back or you can create a religion that turns the other cheek. Needs, wants, and chaos trumps order, religion, and passion all day, any day. Take the USA for example. Sure we have rules, order, and religion, but we also have "peace" keeping missiles. From chaos comes order and then the threats of chaos to break the order keeps it in place.

After all it is always those who have the most, that set the rules and keep the order. This is not done because or morality or religion. It is done because they want to continue to have the most and control things. They also have the added luxury of not following rules, order or religion. They still TAKE all the time and just hide it with the illusion that it was gods will, or to keep the order in place. In the real world the hero does not win, get the girl and rides off into the sunset. Those perks belong to the bad guys. Meanwhile the good guys meet in a building and talk about the bad guys will get it in the end or the after life.

 

[DeletedUser]

Clearly you are not familiar with the social contract, then. In that scenario, if there are laws in place in the community (which is what the social contract is all about), then I would report your behavior to others in my community. We would talk about it, agree that you are a danger to society, and endeavor to track you down, retrieve the stolen property, and subject you to whatever the punishment is for theft and assault.

Obviously sometimes the social contract fails, and I never suggested otherwise. If there is a local lord with a lot more resources than the rest of the community, and he happens to be a jerk, then we will be subjected to his whims and there's not much we can do about it besides eventually revolt. Then we would either put someone else in charge, someone we trusted, or go back to being a society of relative equals. (People with nothing at all still must rely on charity, though.)

I will say this for religion: organised formal charities have historically come from religious institutions, as well as education (or what passed for it back in the day) and caring for the sick. It also provided a sense of unity that would extend beyond the local community. If a visitor from out of town came by, we would be obligated to treat him well if he shared our faith, and would have something in common. He would be less of the "other" and closer to our ingroup, so we would feel less threatened.

Domino, you're saying that religion has always existed in some form. I agree, but I interpret it a little differently. Many of the morals that are taught across a wide variety of cultures are the same, which leads me to believe that morality comes not from religion itself, but people. Not to mention that many many gods had less interest in how people treated each other and more interest in bigger goats. If you look at some of the earlier stories, the Judea-Christian god was not much different in this respect, but I won't pretend to be any sort of authority on that.

As for the age of religion, Hinduism is the oldest, hands down. I learned this in a "World Religions" class several years ago and it simply predates every other religion that is practiced today. (This class included Judaism, for the record.)

Incidentally, I'd like to recommend http://www.youtube.com/user/NonStampCollector.

EDIT: If you want to see the Bible being thrown under a bus for being utterly inadequate as source of moral law, look no further: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXO26pObTZA&feature=BFa&list=PL7420408E36541DA4

This is relevant to the conversation, though irrelevant to my argument in particular.

EDIT: On the Ten Commandments: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tz3EEqtcJME&feature=BFa&list=PL7420408E36541DA4