i don't know what rome has to do with this conversation, i never said the bible wasn't old, in fact the "stories" in the bible (which are a chronicle of history as well) predate written word. so when you speak of pagan, are you meaning celtic pagan?
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pagan is from latin meaning country dweller and was used to describe polythesic religions. which the celtic religion would have fallen into this category, but so do most pre judaic religions
I agree that religion did not "create" morality, it was a tool to teach morality, even the greek myths were stories of moral. (which, by the way, were older than our bibles storys yet so many believe the bible to be the first book of morals) unfortanatly, it also became a tool to control society. We have gone from learning from the gods to being afraid of our one and only god, this thanks to, not jesus, but the rise of the church during the middle ages.
Hmm, perhaps "created" was the wrong word for religion in relation to morals. Nevertheless, as you've acknowledged, it's a chicken and egg situation. Religion has been used as a tool to convey morals since the beginning of civilization, as you acknowledged. It was religion, though, that popularized these behaviours to become social norms. After all, no-one wants to pick a fight with the fire god, Zeus or God of Abraham. If it was mere "human nature" that brought about morals, then how did different cultures evolve different morals and ethics?i do know pagan (such a broad spectrum, since paganism is considered by christians as any religion besides christianity) religions have been around since the begining of "civilization" but it was man who developed religion to teach morals and science (how the world worked and why). so i still stand on my belief that religion did not create morality, but i will add that philosiphers did.
I would agree with you on a few points, except Religion of one sort or another has been the governing force since the beginning of time. But my comment on The bible and morals was in regards to the comment Rome was the first which predates the bible. And no it doesn't. I will agree with you about Hindu. Thing is Judaism didn't come about till Abraham, and that was its infancy. In truth the "religion" didn't come to pass until Moses. However Abraham was the father of it. And Christianity didn't come to pass until the New Testament (which doesn't predate Rome) But since the bible in the New Testament says that it is a continuation of the old testament, even that argument doesn't apply to being older than rome either. Prior to that, there were many other religions....My ONLY point was that the bible predates Rome, even if only by fact of the Torah being included and Proverbs being a part of the Torah, predates Roman morality.Clearly you are not familiar with the social contract, then. In that scenario, if there are laws in place in the community (which is what the social contract is all about), then I would report your behavior to others in my community. We would talk about it, agree that you are a danger to society, and endeavor to track you down, retrieve the stolen property, and subject you to whatever the punishment is for theft and assault.
Obviously sometimes the social contract fails, and I never suggested otherwise. If there is a local lord with a lot more resources than the rest of the community, and he happens to be a jerk, then we will be subjected to his whims and there's not much we can do about it besides eventually revolt. Then we would either put someone else in charge, someone we trusted, or go back to being a society of relative equals. (People with nothing at all still must rely on charity, though.)
I will say this for religion: organised formal charities have historically come from religious institutions, as well as education (or what passed for it back in the day) and caring for the sick. It also provided a sense of unity that would extend beyond the local community. If a visitor from out of town came by, we would be obligated to treat him well if he shared our faith, and would have something in common. He would be less of the "other" and closer to our ingroup, so we would feel less threatened.
Domino, you're saying that religion has always existed in some form. I agree, but I interpret it a little differently. Many of the morals that are taught across a wide variety of cultures are the same, which leads me to believe that morality comes not from religion itself, but people. Not to mention that many many gods had less interest in how people treated each other and more interest in bigger goats. If you look at some of the earlier stories, the Judea-Christian god was not much different in this respect, but I won't pretend to be any sort of authority on that.
As for the age of religion, Hinduism is the oldest, hands down. I learned this in a "World Religions" class several years ago and it simply predates every other religion that is practiced today. (This class included Judaism, for the record.)
Hmm, perhaps "created" was the wrong word for religion in relation to morals. Nevertheless, as you've acknowledged, it's a chicken and egg situation. Religion has been used as a tool to convey morals since the beginning of civilization, as you acknowledged. It was religion, though, that popularized these behaviours to become social norms. After all, no-one wants to pick a fight with the fire god, Zeus or God of Abraham. If it was mere "human nature" that brought about morals, then how did different cultures evolve different morals and ethics?