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Living the end of the American dream.

  • Thread starter DeletedUser2259
  • Start date

DeletedUser2259


Living the end of the American dream.
I know most if not all of you will disagree. Or maybe not.
When I was a kid I grew up under a dictator in a small European country. I used to watch John Wayne movies and all I ever wanted to be was an American.
One day my mom met an American tourist and he was such a nice guy. Tall, dark hair, strong. He befriended us and we became friends. Then one day he had to leave. I remember going with him to the airport. I asked him. What is it like to be an American? He looked at me, smiled, petted my head and said… It aint bad kid… It aint bad. I never did see him again.
I came to this country with nothing. I had to fight to get in. It was not easy.
My mom and my step dad came ahead of me. The country where I was from did not want me to leave because at 16 I was too close to army age.
The first place my mom took me to see was a supermarket. I had never imagined such a place. All that food, right there.
When I arrived here (not speaking much English) my step dad who was an auto mechanic for a dealership, had me put on one of his uniforms (pants way to short for me) and had me go to work with him. He told me to polish every car in the showroom, wash every car in the front lot, sweep everything and just keep working. I worked there for over one year before the owner stared asking who I was.
This was the early 70’s and the time of the oil embargo.
Eventually he hired me. Paid me little.
I was treated poorly in the US. Because my name sounded Hispanic and therefore I must be from South America, and was treated as such.
I was told he was taking advantage of me. But I knew we were taking advantage of each other.
Well I grew up. And I blended in; I became a very proud American citizen, by choice not accident of birth. I contributed, a lot. Over the many years I built a very successful business. Today that men’s family and mine are friends.
I became wealthy by any reasonable standard. I have homes in 3 different latitudes, and four locations, I own a yacht, and I have done many wonderful things such as racing Indy style cars for 14 years just for fun and a lot more.
I earned my wealth from the first penny and yes I am a proud card carrying member of the 1% group.
America, gave me the American dream. Much more than I ever deserved.
Now I look at what we have done to my beautiful America and it just makes me want to cry.
First, this countries government today is much more corrupt then the one I ran from. We are constantly being divided by the facets of our government because they know that as long as they keep us fighting one another we won’t fight them.
GE just canceled its pension plan for any new employee, it canceled many of its benefits. Publix is going to “take the penalty” and drop its health care package. And on and on. I know because I have clients who work for these companies. Our government is encouraging capitalist America to drop the people onto the government.
I was self employed most of my life. I am built that way. But most people are not. With the pressures of education costs, food etc, most of them will not save for the future because it will be easier to give up the future then it is to pass up on that shinny new iPhone our child really really wants and needs.
In a few more years the current generation of kids will suddenly realize that they got older but will never be able to retire. At 50 corporations will drop them like hot potatoes because they cost too much and move too slow. At 50 you can’t find a job.
The country will collapse. I know. I lived there where we had socialized medicine, government pensions etc. It does not work.
Before any of you reminds us the “The US is still the best country on earth”. I ask you… Why do you today feel compelled to insert the word “still” in there…?
We are being exploited and robed by our government. They talk about things like social security as if they were government benefits, and conveniently forget that we made those contributions into that fund (we and our employers ... I paid twice since I was self employed) that is our money.
They tell us SS has no money but they forget to mentions that for example, Regan raped the SS fund, and Clinton used the SS fund to magically balance the budget. They robed us.
If the US government was a bank they would have all been jailed for breaching their fiduciary duty.
They are like the mafia. Two dominant (families) parties fighting among each other but always getting together to exclude any new opposition. When it behooves them they go in the back room and make a deal.
They care only about themselves and their re-election.
There isn’t one single patriot among them. Not one.
The problem is that we are too comfortable and so we don’t do anything about it.
We vote. That makes us feel like we are doing something. We are not. They decide who wins not us. They play the game we are the pawns. One of them wins the other wins less. We the people always loose.
You know the old saying… In the US anybody can become president… Sure…Anybody with about a billion dollars and belonging to one of those two parties.
I listen to other Americans debate. They simply mouth the party lines as if they were robots.
I have a son. He is 11. My son, born here, will never get the kinds of opportunities I had.
We, our generation destroyed the American dream. We did it. Our government may be a grouping of liars, self interested self serving disgusting beings, who will stop at nothing to further themselves and who care only about what they want and what they can get.
Yes they may be all that but above all they are a reflection of us.
I have no party affiliations. They all disgust me equally.
Now we are all starting to live in the initial stages of the American nightmare.
What do you think?
 
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DeletedUser

Congrats on your achievements. Sounds like they are well deserved. I also have an 11 year old son and I often wonder what if any opportunities await him. I don't disagree with anything that you said. Our government is corrupt and driven by corporate interests. It's just that, I think it has always been that way. We only get to see a small part of that corruption, but it's more than what we used to see in yester-year's limited media. I think we need to keep in mind that most of our economic demise is due to emerging markets, and that trend is not going to change anytime soon. However, I beleive that if a citizen today possessed the work ethic, integrity, and patience he/she could prosper in this America. Unfortunately, most Americans would rather sleep late and take the gov't check instead of starting that minimum wage job for less money, which is human nature. Could a legal foreigner come to the US and prosper by hard work today? I think so. But an illegal worker would face some ceilings. I think the dream is still there it's just not going to be handed to anyone, as you well know.

Also, I believe that a silly 2 party system is the natural progression of any unhindered democracy.

"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter." - Winston Churchill[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif][/FONT]
"Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried." - Winston Churchill
 

DeletedUser


... the US government ... are like the mafia. Two dominant (families) parties fighting among each other but always getting together to exclude any new opposition. When it behooves them they go in the back room and make a deal.
They care only about themselves and their re-election.

I like that comparison! Haven't heard that before.

What the U.S. really needs is new leadership that will install optimism and encouragement.
Get the media to tell us lies: everything is getting better! go out and find a job, the economy is growing!
Take risks! Create companies and jobs! Get an education!
If we have optimism, it will happen!

If we continue to hear that everything is awful, most of us will just stay in bed and take those government welfare checks.
 

DeletedUser2982

I blame it on politicians and lawyers they are some of the greediest people out there.

The government keeps making these actions and there is a reaction and over the years of this happening its created a mess that we as an Americans cant get are self's out, its almost like we need a clean slate. I really think that we need to band together and go against the government and stand up for are rights but that would never happen and they would probably call it anarchy.
 

DeletedUser

I blame it on politicians and lawyers they are some of the greediest people out there.

Headtrip, I can't help pointing this out. A lot of politicians are/were lawyers. Too bad we passed the stage of civil servants. :rolleyes:
 

DeletedUser

The mistreatment of foreign people just appalls me. It should not be that much trouble to get to America, and start a beautiful life. Americans today forget that is what our country was based off of, a free country built on the foundation of multiple races and culture backgrounds.
 

DeletedUser3422

The mistreatment of foreign people just appalls me. It should not be that much trouble to get to America, and start a beautiful life. Americans today forget that is what our country was based off of, a free country built on the foundation of multiple races and culture backgrounds.
We treat immigrants better today than any time in our history, we mistreat our citizens by not properly teaching history, civics and economics.

- - - Updated - - -

I believe two major roadblocks to the American dream are: 1. Having the line between wealthy and poor being 70k for a married couple. 70k is the point where an entrepreneur pays approximately half his or her pay in combined taxes. 2. "I am for doing good to the poor, but I differ in opinion of the means. I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. In my youth I traveled much, and I observed in different countries, that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer." Ben Franklin
 

DeletedUser

If you're paying half your income to taxes at 70k you need a better CPA because buddy, I've never seen it.

*goes back to doing his own income taxes*
 

DeletedUser3422

If you're paying half your income to taxes at 70k you need a better CPA because buddy, I've never seen it.

*goes back to doing his own income taxes*

25% federal + 15.3% ss/med + 6% state and that is just the start. We have sales and various property taxes, coupled with several on phone, cable and electric bill. If I go out to eat there is a 4% on top of the 6% sales, 10% if I stay in a hotel.
The bracket jumps from 15 to 25% at 72K for a married couple, the next jump is at 146k and it goes to 28%. I stand by what I stated “Having the line between wealthy and poor being 70k for a married couple. 70k is the point where an entrepreneur pays approximately half his or her pay in combined taxes”. My memory was off by 2k. 70k works out to about $35 an hour for a 40 hour week or $17.50 for each spouse.
 

DeletedUser

First of all that 25% is MARGINAL not on the whole amount. You only pay 25% of all income OVER that line. Everything below that is at the prior marginal rates. State taxes include deductions, I've been taxed as high as 8.3% marginally in State and paid no where near that in reality once the deductions were worked in.

You only pay the full SS/Med IF you're self employed at which point most of those other taxed you just rattled off are going to get deducted as business expenses. Otherwise cut your rate to the typical employee rate of 6.2% and 1.45%, which by the way some people can opt out of completely.

Sales tax is not on GROSS income. It's on purchases, of which the average person making more than 50K is less than 67% of your income, and it's certainly far less than that for most people. Regressive tax system, so it is disproportionately paid by the poor relative to income.

Finally you're also assuming that all income at 72K is wages. There are different tax rates for different things most notably capital gains.

You're over simplifying the situation to make out that the tax burden is larger than it actually is. The reality is that people do not pay those kind of rates in this country without some serious extenuating circumstances (like fines, penalties, and injured spouse issues).
 
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DeletedUser3422

“First of all that 25% is MARGINAL not on the whole amount. You only pay 25% of all income OVER that line. Everything below that is at the prior marginal rates. State taxes include deductions, I've been taxed as high as 8.3% marginally in State and paid no where near that in reality once the deductions were worked in.”

Your reading comprehension is lacking.

"You only pay the full SS/Med IF you're self employed at which point most of those other taxed you just rattled off are going to get deducted as business expenses. Otherwise cut your rate to the typical employee rate of 6.2% and 1.45%, which by the way some people can opt out of completely."

Ditto my first comment and 1099 employees are common and will become the new normal due to Obamacare. Please give some examples of how I can opt out today.

“Sales tax is not on GROSS income. It's on purchases, of which the average person making more than 50K is less than 67% of your income, and it's certainly far less than that for most people. Regressive tax system, so it is disproportionately paid by the poor relative to income.”

Ditto my first comment again and do not change the subject.

“Finally you're also assuming that all income at 72K is wages. There are different tax rates for different things most notably capital gains. You're over simplifying the situation to make out that the tax burden is larger than it actually is. The reality is that people do not pay those kind of rates in this country without some serious extenuating circumstances (like fines, penalties, and injured spouse issues).”

Stop changing the subject, capital gains are irrelevant to my original post. You are wrong about your version of reality. This is how reality is... A firefighter married to a nurse, their combined income is above 72K. The firefighter takes a side job teaching fire extinguisher use or cutting grass or roofing etc. The fire fighter gets paid as a 1099 and has to pay 25% federal, 15.3% ss/med and likely the high end of state tax. Our firefighter decides to take her husband out to dinner with whatever is left and gets hit with 6% sales and 4% prepared food tax. We can change firefighter to teacher if you like.
 

DeletedUser

You're being insulting. I'm tired of it.

1099 employees make up, last I saw the numbers, less than 10% of the labor force. None of your examples: Teacher, Firefighter, and Nurse are jobs which are typically classified as independent contractors and in fact are likely to be violating the law if they are classified as such because the manner and times they must be at work are prescribed by their employers. The increase in 1099 employees you are predicting may or may not come to pass, however I'm willing to state pretty publicly that the odds are not in your favor of it ever reaching a majority status, I'd probably safely bet we're not even looking at more than a 3% rise in the number. Further, the side job is the ONLY one which might generate a 1099 on a regular basis.

Your dittos mean you have absolutely no comprehension of what I said. Your taxable income and your adjusted gross income are totally different numbers. Further your spendable income relative to non-housing costs is another number and from that number you're going to see a percentage related to sales taxes. If you don't want to include all taxes, then don't make your original point about all taxes. You do not get to claim you grossed 72K and then say that you paid 6% in sales taxes in a state with 6% sales tax. Your typical sales taxes will not exceed (and this is being VERY generous) 4% due to things that are non-tax. Even in states like mine verging on 10% there are variances in sales tax effects, I actually pay in about 3% of my income to sales taxes annually, and yes I do track it.

Capital gains is NOT changing the subject it's part of the tax code. You obviously have NOT read it, and should cease and desist trying to talk about it like you know anything about it. You aren't even comprehending the concept of MARGINAL TAX RATE. At NO POINT does a person making 72,000 a year pay 25% of that to the federal government in the form of income taxes. EVER!

To put this is VERY stark numbers:

Adjusted Gross: 72000 annually
Taxable Income: 52,500 annually (assuming no children and married filing jointly... standard deduction and personal exemption only, no additional deductions or losses from schedules A, B, or C which this couple would likely file.)
Tax Liability: 7,009 (assuming NO credits at all)
Federal Income Tax as a percentage of gross income for 2012: 9.73%

THAT IS NO WHERE NEAR 25%!
 

DeletedUser3422

I have not insulted you, I called you out and you don’t like it. As for your poor reading comprehension, you proved my point once again. I did not state any of those professions are generally 1099 employees, fire extinguisher class, cutting grass and roofing are. I owe somebody on this forum an apology, I was wrong it is fun winding people up.
 

DeletedUser3

Allow me to remind everyone of: Rule #1 --- RESPECT (No personal insults or ad hominems)

Also, please remember that it is recommended everyone: Be Friendly --- If you are unable to be friendly, be courteous. If you are unable to be courteous, be professional. Debates have the potential to become heated, but it is your responsibility to keep a lid on your emotions.

Failing to follow the recommendations causes an escalation that eventually results in rule violations. Let's try not going there, thanks.
 

DeletedUser4072

Taxes are a very complicated thing. I would know I've done taxes for other people. I may not be up to date because I no longer do taxes for people besides myself; however, I do file as an independent contractor and a household employee which includes but not limited to yard worker (as your example Sirerik firefighter/teacher raking leafs).

Sirerik, you would not pay for raking the leafs "25% federal, 15.3% ss/med" as you stated, your taxes are 15.3% total and the person you were employeed by would owe 7.65% (6.2%ss and 1.45%) on your cash wages and you are responsible for the difference of 7.65%. This has nothing to do with state just federal taxes. http://www.irs.gov/publications/p926/ar02.html

I really wish people who want to make an argument would use valid references instead of just what they think is correct because most of the time people are ill informed because of what they watched on TV or what they read on the internet to be fact like Wikipedia I feel it disrespectful to say that someone has "poor reading comprehension" when they need to become more informed on the subject that they want to argue a point over. And they should use creditable references to do so like in this case the IRS website.
 

DeletedUser3422

I stand corrected on 1099 employees. As a former tax professional I would appreciate your incite on this and I will try to use sources. According to teacher portal the average pay for a Virginia teacher is 48K. Deductions are complicated to make this less time consuming can we agree on 12k? That would make the taxable income 36k. Checking the irs tax table for 2012... $5036 which comes up to 13.9% effective tax rate. Am I close enough? Now our teacher gets two months off in the summer and she decides to cut grass to supplement her income. She puts up flyers and knocks on doors. For the sake of simplicity can I use a number she has after paying for all the business expenses and equipment depreciation etc. etc. etc.? When everything is said and done she has 10k in her hands. Wanting to be a good citizen she claims that money. This is where I could use your experience. Would her federal tax owed go up 25 cents for every dollar she made over $35,350? According to the IRS chart she would, I understand her effective tax rate is 16.3. How much will she have to pay in ss/med if any? State taxes?
Now we can get back to my original point of I believe this is one of the major roadblocks to achieving the American dream. A person goes out and tries to get ahead only to have the wind let out of his or her sails when they actually see how much is taken by the government above the magic 25% threshold. Yes I understand effective tax rate and deductions, but not everybody does. Between navigating complex tax code, regulations, laws and bureaucracy, starting a home based business is close to impossible if you want to do it legally. Which brings up another topic... under the table work, is it prevalent enough to hurt government revenue?

I am a volunteer firefighter and we have this conversation every year around tax time. Some of us supplement our income pulling shifts on an ambulance, teaching and operating apparatus for our local sea school. The conversation always starts off the same, son of a ____ we usually get a couple grand back on taxes, this year we owed a ____load. Most of us are willing to work for $12-15 bucks an hour but once we see how much we owe it sure looks like we are making less than minimum wage. My response lately jokingly tends to be, welcome to the 1%.
 
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DeletedUser4072

Honestly, I don't deal with state taxes. There is none in my state which is why I said I am not up to date on things. However, I really don't understand your math. I'll give you 48K as avg income for the teacher. Is she not filing married jointly? Your whole argument was about making 70k filing married jointly earlier. Its unclear why you are going into something else all together.

From the numbers you gave, it looks like she is filing single. So, if she is filing single 48k teaching job +10k from lawn care she would be making 58k, right? And she would have $9,950 minimum deduction that she would get. So...the effective tax rate with single standard deductions is 13.86%. So her taxes would be $8,036 maximum So she would not be taxed 25% of her income. There is so many other things that are not included whether she has kids or is head of household as an example.

And yes, you should claim all revenue even if your paid cash under the table. If you want the right to complain about people (mostly targeted are immiegrants) for not paying taxes and to have a functioning government, you should pay taxes and its against the law if you don't.
 

DeletedUser3422

I changed from married to single in attempt to streamline the process and show how low the threshold is. Yes on average the percent is reasonable and we do have deductions for numerous items. None of that seems to matter to me and those like me when we get hit with that tax bill out of the blue the first time and we actually look at our return. It would have been downright hilarious to see my reaction to taxes the first year I started my horse boarding business. My wife was making enough to support us when I got out of the military and we decided I would spend two years getting the stable up and running. That first year I took no money out of the business, every penny went back in to improvements, equipment and additions, and I owed taxes. At the time I did not know about depreciation.
 

DeletedUser4072

Understand that starting any small business, you never make money the first year because it goes back into it. Your luckily to break even. Though there are a few that have the right market and circumstances to do good.

You can budget better and find inexpensive alternatives that are good quality supplies for your improvements and equipment, you should not have had to owe taxes especially if you made no money. You need to get a better tax person to help you.
 

DeletedUser3

*bing* And there's the problem with arguing that the government prevents you from being successful in your small business. Indeed it is quite the opposite, as they provide many programs, grants, loans to assist small business owners, particularly first time business owners. That you opted not to take advantage of any of these programs puts you in a difficult position for debate, particularly when your primary argument is opposition to taxation and you don't even have the correct figures.

Still, it makes for good reading, even for those of us with "poor reading comprehension." *chuckle*
 
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