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Living the end of the American dream.

  • Thread starter DeletedUser2259
  • Start date

DeletedUser

I was reading OPEC's Secretary General key-note speech http://www.opec.org/opec_web/en/2486.htm. It makes interesting reading. Seems peak oil is not an immediate problem, at least not for the foreseeable future and he makes reference to the tight oil and shale gas in the US. It seems fear and speculation underpins the oil prices as it does with everything ( bankers/traders have a lot to answer for). What I did find interesting was the assertion that Britain in 2011 made 1.8 times more in taxing oil than the producers made in selling it. Most amusing.
 

DeletedUser3

Yeah, I'm not one to trust OPEC's claims, considering their track record.
 

DeletedUser2259

OMG.
I was not expecting all this :)
The tax debate can go on and on. Having been on both sides of the fence during my life time, I can tell you from personal experience that your perspective on the subject changes, with the level of your wealth, and with age.

I don’t think most Americans mind paying taxes, its knowing that the money is going to waste that makes it distasteful.
The idea that the government should re-distribute anyone’s wealth at any level is (or should be, used to be) totally un-American.
To me it’s really about the breaking down of the fabric of humanity. Slowly, even in my beloved America we have allowed ourselves to lower our standards. Slowly in our endeavor, to be cool, fair, non- discriminating, tolerant etc. etc., we have created a situation and a society where almost anything goes.
When you do that, some sectors of that society perceive that as more freedom, but it really is degradation.
This leads to more and more polarization of the different classes in that society. The rich protect themselves by building walls, and by moving their wealth and their businesses jobs elsewhere. The poor remain poor, and the so called middle class, bears the brunt of it all as it always does.
We suffer today,because we deserve to suffer. As apeople, and as a human race.
Example.
A couple of months ago, I went to the supermarket to get some food. As I entered the parking lot, on a small island of grass was a couple with 3 little children. They seemed to be from Afghanistan, or some area nearby. The young woman was holdinga cardboard sign, which said, “Hungry, no job, please help”. The man looked beaten down.
I parked my car, my heart was breaking. I walked up to them handed her every dollar I had in my pocket, said God be with you, and walked away.
As I walked toward the supermarket another man had been watching all this. With a broad smile he looked at me and said… “They probably have more money than you, it’s probably a scam”.
I was surprised, stupefied really. I remained frozen for a moment…Then I said… It doesn’t matter. I did the right thing. That is what matters. I will remember that day all the rest my life. One of my most proud moments. I wish I could live each day like that.
We are so hung-up on getting over or being gotten over that we forget to do the right thing.
As long as we stay on this path, my child, our children will have a dark future.
That’s why it feels like living the end of the American Dream to me.
John Wayne, is dead, and so is our dream.
 
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DeletedUser

Back when I was still farming and came across destitute people like mentioned above I would offer them a job, food and if needed shelter. Not one in many years accepted when the offer of work was the first condition. I would say what are you're talents I will have work for you. Not one.
Now I don't even bother.
Years ago before the government was the answer folke took care of each other and the community.
Brings to mind the story of my 86 year old grandmother's tax audit.
Seems that the agent was unhappy that a particular rent house never showed any reasonable income.
My grandmother stated the couple had been living there since the 20ies. He was my grandfather's helper for trapping untill after the depression. They were poor, and tried hard to make their way. The fact that we were now in the late 70ies and she had never increased rent was her business.
Grandma statng she chooses her charity did not sit well with the government man who proceeded to do a comperhensive audit.
Our reliance on the government to take care of us is a loss of american dream and did lead to a major shift in the american dream.
 

DeletedUser3

I'm going to have to call you on that.

It is convenient to look at history with tinted lenses, but let's not forget that when this nation was birthed, slavery was rampant, women had no rights whatsoever, and the wealthy were few and far between. Indeed, almost every signer of the Declaration of Independence was a wealthy landowner that likewise owned slaves.

So then we move beyond that, and we come to the great frontier and after. That was an interesting time, but ultimately most everyone lived in poverty. Those who didn't, they exploited the workforce, which ultimately birthed unions. A President was assassinated over the abuse posed by these wealthy magnates, in that President's place, Teddy Roosevelt (then Vice President) came into the scene to wage war on the magnates, the monopolies, and to support unions (trivia, Teddy came from a wealthy family... he just posed like he was a rough frontiersman).

So then we enter post WWI, an economic collapse caused by greed and abuse, well known as the Great Depression. Then there was WWII and the birth of the military-industrial complex. Equality efforts came into effect, albeit even now not equal for minorities or women (who work the same jobs but receive far less wages). And during this time, the wealthy started regaining their foothold, investing in the military-industrial complex. And, as time went by, insurance companies started gaining a foothold. And with technology and development, came corporations screwing over the little man to perform their own backdoor forms of monopoly (tobacco industry, pharmaceuticals, medical insurance, military industry, etc).

So, pray tell, when did the American dream ever come to fruition? What we have is what has been going on for centuries. Those with power and wealth gain more power and wealth. Those in the middle, struggle to stay there. Those in poverty are shunned and dismissed as unwilling to work.

But it's all a big lie, perpetuated by those in power & wealth, repeated by those of less fortunate. The great lottery that is the American Dream, isn't a lottery, it's an opportunity to dangle a carrot in front of the masses.
 

DeletedUser

One of the issues whe have here is "the American Dream" what is it we're talking about.
The original poster framed this loosly pertaining to personal success through indapandance, hard work, and little government intervention. He was morning the loss of this.
Following this idea of the american dream being lost he is correct.
I morn with him.
Its true the american dream in general is diffrent through history, social. economic, religious, and etc points of view.
.
.
So, pray tell, when did the American dream ever come to fruition? What we have is what has been going on for centuries. Those with power and wealth gain more power and wealth. Those in the middle, struggle to stay there. Those in poverty are shunned and dismissed as unwilling to work.

But it's all a big lie, perpetuated by those in power & wealth, repeated by those of less fortunate. The great lottery that is the American Dream, isn't a lottery, it's an opportunity to dangle a carrot in front of the masses.
.
With this I don't agree. Many people through out history have acheived what they consider the american dream. Fore some becomming those greedy industeral giants, the union organizers, the union members, or the poverty shunned unwilling to work their dream was obtained.
Discussion here is those loosing the oppertunity to have the dream as framed by the originall poster witch I think was a very popular dream.
 

DeletedUser

With this I don't agree. Many people through out history have acheived what they consider the american dream. Fore some becomming those greedy industeral giants, the union organizers, the union members, or the poverty shunned unwilling to work their dream was obtained.
Discussion here is those loosing the oppertunity to have the dream as framed by the originall poster witch I think was a very popular dream.
Thank the stars "it's gone" if the American dream was to simply rise from oppressed to oppressor; I most certainly will not mourn with you. Bring on the true fruition of inalienable rights and "all men made equal", just add women...
 

DeletedUser3

As I read the original post, it basically stated a gripe that he was able to become successful and is now griping because they changed the laws to ensure he paid his fair share of taxes.
 

DeletedUser2259

I realize that we all have our own interpretations of history, and what it all means. From my perspective history is written by big government. It always was even when big government was the church.
History is what it is today because a particular set of propaganda was set forth, had someone else won a war here or there, history would be different because the propaganda would be different. It might have been more mentioned that Nazis living in the US and working for the American governament created John Kennedys trip to the moon, for example, or that in spite of our best efforts to paint other people as bad, we are the only nation to ever drop nuclear weapons of mass destruction on islands we knew contained only innocent women a children, all while blatantly lying about how it needed to be done to save American Lives…. We keep that up to today… We invade other countries, kill their children and we always say it is to save American lives… So they bomb us and we have to run naked through airports… we deserve it.
But the American dream to me was and is not about history. It’s about opportunity. That is what we have lost, and we have lost it because we as a people have become of the opinion that it can’t be done, that it’s all unfair, that those “other people” have too much, and we want their stuff!!!
We teach our children this every day, on TV, in the news, when our politicians speak, in sitcoms, everywhere.
A poor immigrant that could not speak the language and was here illegally, in 1070 stood 1,000 times a better chance at the American dream then my son born here. In fact, with all the wealth that I have been blessed to be able to leave him, he still stands a lesser chance then I did, because of who and what we have become today.
An example:
A few weeks ago I was on my way to my Cincinnati office with one of my junior partners. While we waited at the airport we decided to sit at the bar because they had plugs for our laptops.
We waited and waited to get a drink… Finally out of desperation I flagged down one of the bartenders that were standing around shooting the breeze and doing nothing… “Oh… you want a drink….. That’s not the way we do it here… See that ipad in front of you.. Touch it and you can order your drink”. So we did, it asked us exactly what we wanted mixed etc… Then the bartender who could not mix a drink showed up with it… I was busy telling my junior how dehumanizing that was… next to her a young man was seated… He said…. What do you mean? This is the best…. I can order my drink and never even have to speak to a person….
I decided right there and then that since I had some time I would have some fun…
So I got him a couple of drinks…
I talked about what it was like to fly back in the days when a 747 had a piano lounge upstairs…
He explained that without today’s technology, he would never been able to meet his girlfriend…. (probably not), or do what he does for a living… He exclaims without thinking….. “Without this technology I would have to do manual labor”… I looked at my junior and she was trying really hard not to laugh.
I asked him what he did. He explained that he used to be involved in a creation of an app for cosmetics… Instead of a person going to the makeup counter and having a consultation with a person they can now do it with a computer…. But now he had moved onto a new field…. Social media advertizing…..
OMG says the bar tender who can’t mix a drink… Me too!!!! I am in social advertizing too… I have a web site and everything… he exclaims… Really says the young guy… Quick take some notes I will teach you everything you want to know…
A few more drinks latter… The app he was involved in…. He worked in the mail room…. The social media advertizing job… He was going to start working for a company who does it next week…
Stamped on his forehead in big bold letters….. “You don’t deserve the American Dream”. On the bartenders forehead it just said “?what?”….
Maybe I am a romantic but the generation that came right after WWII (the generation before me) was one of the best the world has ever seen. Similar to the generation of the renaissance.
We (my generation) came along with our seemingly high and mighty values… Make love not war etc… And we screwed up the world. We make more war than anyone before us ever did. The only thing we seem to have been able to successfully pass to our children is the part about sex and lots of drugs.
Their world was the world of “father knows best”, the “Andy Griffith show”, and strong women like “Lucile Ball” and the woman in the honeymooners whose name escapes me right now.
Our world is “Rosanne Bar”, “married with children”, “the Simpsons”.
The former were reflections of their time. The latter a sad reflection of our time.
People such as are portrayed in those shows, don’t deserve anything like the American Dream. Unfortunately they are us in the mirror.
.
PS. I pay lots and lots of tax. I am very proud of that. That is one of my ways to “put back” some of what I have been given.
I don’t at all mind paying tax. I mind having my money wasted, or given to those who sit on their buts asking the government for a piece of my stuff.
 
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DeletedUser2259

As I read the original post, it basically stated a gripe that he was able to become successful and is now griping because they changed the laws to ensure he paid his fair share of taxes.

Hummmm did you really read the original post... where was the part about me talking about paying too much tax?

must be a "beta" glitch :)Or maybe just a display error....
 
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DeletedUser

I have found it all very entertaining visualising a couple of good ole boys in white suits and cowboy hats sitting on a verandah overseeing large estates with mint juleps in hand chewing over how things were so much better in the good ole days. Just like a film or a dream even ;)
 

DeletedUser3

I listened to your argument, cavalierhome, and your arguments do not stand up to statistics. Minorities are creating far more jobs than in the past, and this is taking into consideration population growth. Unemployment claims have dropped since the 70's & 80's (not risen, as the GOP would have you believe). Employment percentages have risen or stayed the same. U.S. employment to population ratio has increased since 1948 and the 70's/80's. Economic indicators are higher and annual number of new businesses has likewise increased. We experienced a recession, generated by GOP-led efforts to deregulate, and we haven't completely recovered, but the numbers are better than the GOP would have you believe.

So really... your perception is coming from being on top --- a distorted perception that looks to the losses you have now, with the government attempting to ensure those in the top income percentage pay their fair share of taxes. This spoils your iPad-generated martini, no doubt, but surely doesn't end the American dream.

http://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/economic_census/cb10-107.html
http://www.census.gov/econ/smallbus.html
http://granitegrok.com/pix/UnEmpWeeklyAdjFeb1209.jpg
http://econographics.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/employment-population-ratio.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_cQns-qO1P...mployment+Population+Ratio+Trend+Aug+2010.png
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ezra-klein/files/2012/07/new-businesses1.jpg
http://static2.businessinsider.com/...c-indicators-have-recently-shown-strength.jpg
 

DeletedUser2259

WOW. Sorry you feel that way.
First. I have no losses. Taxes never worry me. It's a nice problem to have.
You really miss what the American Dream is to me.
A job? There are jobs all over the world.
Starting a business... millions of businesses start every year all over the world. And 80% of them fail.
Recessions are not created by governments, and government can do little to cure them. In fact governments can do little about anything, except war, and tax.
My American dream is intact. It will probably always be. 1- I am still hungry, 2- The rich tend to get richer.
By the way. It's not an argument, it's a lament.
I see it in my own son. On one hand is cares about very little, on the other hand, he fits right in because nobody around him cares about anything.
You seem to be taking to positions at the same time.
On one hand you obviously feel negatively about people who succeeded, on the other you seem to say the American dream is intact and anybody can have it.
Your position is political motivated not neutral or specific to the issue. You mention the GOP as if to assume I am a part of that party. The only party affiliation I care to have these days is that of patriot
To you the American dream is intact because the government is going to take stuff from some and give it to others and create it.
Doesn't work. Never did, never will.
Your point of view is my very best evidence of the end of an era where that dream was truly possible for anyone who cared to try.
Statistics. No, nothing to do with that Dream either. In fact, it is likely that The American dream would be more likely to become available to the masses when things are not so good.

- - - Updated - - -

I have found it all very entertaining visualising a couple of good ole boys in white suits and cowboy hats sitting on a verandah overseeing large estates with mint juleps in hand chewing over how things were so much better in the good ole days. Just like a film or a dream even ;)

Maybe those old boys are recalling how hard things were back then, but what a sense of hope there was in the air, and counting their blessings for the opportunities they got.

One final observation.
I find it really amusing that when I started out, poor, non English speaking, struggling, people like you guys treated me like crap, you kept your kids away from me as if I was unclean, you pointed at me in supermarkets, you hated me because I dared walk down your neighborhood.
Now you hate me (that thing you think I represent) for the entirely opposite reason...
Very interesting. And very human, but still amusing
 

DeletedUser

I put it to you that jingoistic patriotism is a dangerous state of mind. If anyone catches themselves spouting a constant mantra regarding how wonderful their country is and how beneficial to the world their beliefs are, without questioning the reality of the situation or the need for the constant mantra then the state's work is done. People will have opposing views and call each other out as it's a debate hall that doesn't mean anyone is hated rather we are trying to persuade each other and win the debate.
 

DeletedUser2259

I put it to you that jingoistic patriotism is a dangerous state of mind. If anyone catches themselves spouting a constant mantra regarding how wonderful their country is and how beneficial to the world their beliefs are, without questioning the reality of the situation or the need for the constant mantra then the state's work is done. People will have opposing views and call each other out as it's a debate hall that doesn't mean anyone is hated rather we are trying to persuade each other and win the debate.

True. Did not mean hate "me" in that kind of way. I meant the way sociaty treats diferent pieces of itself. Some of the poor hate the rich today, some rich think poor means criminal and they hate them, and so on.
 

DeletedUser3

WOW. Sorry you feel that way.
First, let me make it clear this is not about feelings. I was being logical and providing evidence that disputes your claims.

Starting a business... millions of businesses start every year all over the world. And 80% of them fail.
I considered that when providing my reports. According to government data, business success/failure has been roughly consistent throughout the timeline from 1948 until now.

Recessions are not created by governments, and government can do little to cure them. In fact governments can do little about anything, except war, and tax.
I beg to differ and, with all due respect, I'm not sure you're informed as to what exactly occurred. It is governments that can do quite a lot to prevent much of what has happened in regards to recessions. Some of the regulations put into place were imposed to prevent such incidents as what occurred in the Great Depression and the 70's recession. These regulations were slowly whittled away through Congressional acts, pushed by banking lobbyists, and it is these deregulation acts that undermined the intent of previous legislatures, opening the door for the great housing bubble and the stock market woes. And yes, the Bush administration had a heavy hand in placing the U.S. government, and thus its citizenry, in dire financial straits. Not merely with his false wars, but also with his irresponsible spending and additional deregulations.

The governments have a responsibility to protect its citizenry. It failed to do so during the Bush administration (and some prior administrations). Instead, it catered to the military-industrial complex (for which Eisenhower posed firm warnings in his exit speech) and the banking/lending institutions. So, in firm discredit to your earlier statements, governments have indeed had a strong hand in recessions (in fact, almost every recession for the past 100 years), both in causation and resolution.

You really miss what the American Dream is to me. <...> My American dream is intact. It will probably always be. 1- I am still hungry, 2- The rich tend to get richer. By the way. It's not an argument, it's a lament.
I see it in my own son. On one hand is cares about very little, on the other hand, he fits right in because nobody around him cares about anything.
Hmm, I'm not going to participate in denigrating your child. I will, instead, point out that you haven't really posed what you define as your American Dream. However, I will addresss Apathy, which strikes many people and has struck many people for centuries. This is not something new and it is certainly not something associated with the American Dream. I would like to point out that it is a trend, for those who live off the silver spoon, having a tendency not to reach for the golden ring. In other words, if you had it good, and you will inherit what others have reaped, there's little motivation to step up and make an effort.

You seem to be taking to positions at the same time. On one hand you obviously feel negatively about people who succeeded, on the other you seem to say the American dream is intact and anybody can have it.
Your position is political motivated not neutral or specific to the issue. You mention the GOP as if to assume I am a part of that party. The only party affiliation I care to have these days is that of patriot
I mention the GOP because of the latest crap spewing from the mouth of that party, which has been overtaken by corporate pawns and anti-Americans posing as grass-roots. I also mention it because your laments sound like an echo of the propaganda I've heard on FOX and from dittoheads.

As to your presumption of me and my position, I am quite happy with people who succeed. I do, however, take offense to those who succeed and then look back "at the little people" with scorn. It offends me, as I am a firm believer in equality for all --- and that includes equal respect.

As to "patriotism," it is a common argument to solidify posturing, but means little in the context of what constitutes your definition of what a nation stands for.

To you the American dream is intact because the government is going to take stuff from some and give it to others and create it. Doesn't work. Never did, never will. Your point of view is my very best evidence of the end of an era where that dream was truly possible for anyone who cared to try.
Strawman. I never once indicated what my American dream was, nor did I infer otherwise. Remember my comment about "equality?" Well when a man making $4,000,000 a year pays a mere fraction of taxes as opposed to a man making $40,000 a year, I see a problem. Equal taxation, equal representation. We don't have that now, and in truth we never had it. So my view of the American dream doesn't exist, and never has. What we have instead is the hype.

And let me make it clear. In many countries, be it in Europe, Australia, Asia, or South America, there are people succeeding and people giving up. The "dream," as it pertains to your context, is not border-restrictive, it is not an "America-only" phenomenon.

As to your claim of, "take stuff from some and give it to others," you do realize you're attacking the notion of the New Deal, which birthed such fundamentally beneficial programs as Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans Administration, SBA, Unemployment Insurance, and Welfare. Without it, our elderly would be without care, our unemployed would quickly be thrown to the streets, our disabled veterans would have no options, our indigent would die for lack of health care, our temporarily downtrodden would have no opportunity for recovery, etc and so on.

So you're wrong. It is the government's responsibility to ensure we care for each other, rather than exploit our employees whilst blissfully drinking martinis via an iPad at the airport bar. The New Deal, and many of the other programs, went into effect to protect the masses from the few successful whose "hunger" has blinded them to their responsibility to care for those less fortunate.

Indeed, your stated position ignores American history.

Statistics. No, nothing to do with that Dream either. In fact, it is likely that The American dream would be more likely to become available to the masses when things are not so good.
Interesting, so your definition of the American dream is when the vultures have carrion to feed upon? Disturbing, I must say.

And yes, statistics have a lot to do with discrediting your earlier claims. You made claims that opportunities are not available as they used to be, and that the "hunger" is not like how it used to be. Both of these claims are refuted by statistics, those I presented.

One final observation. I find it really amusing that when I started out, poor, non English speaking, struggling, people like you guys treated me like crap, you kept your kids away from me as if I was unclean, you pointed at me in supermarkets, you hated me because I dared walk down your neighborhood. Now you hate me (that thing you think I represent) for the entirely opposite reason...Very interesting. And very human, but still amusing
You have a brutally wrong assumption of me, I suppose because it makes it easier for you to dismiss my statements. In any event, I will not share information about myself other than to say my family did not originate in the U.S. and that I have worked/volunteered in many programs, including Ronald McDonald House Charities, soup kitchens, care homes, mental health treatment facilities, etc and so on. I have donated countless hours and plenty of cash to support new businesses for minorities and assisted those in need when I could. Can you claim the same? I would like to say that you presume quite a bit about me, whereas I did not presume anything about you. I read what you stated and responded to your comments.

There, done defending myself against your blatantly personal character assaults. Now, if you wish to return to the debate at hand, I'm sure everyone reading would appreciate it.
 

DeletedUser2259

First, let me make it clear this is not about feelings. I was being logical and providing evidence that disputes your claims.


I considered that when providing my reports. According to government data, business success/failure has been roughly consistent throughout the timeline from 1948 until now.


I beg to differ and, with all due respect, I'm not sure you're informed as to what exactly occurred. It is governments that can do quite a lot to prevent much of what has happened in regards to recessions. Some of the regulations put into place were imposed to prevent such incidents as what occurred in the Great Depression and the 70's recession. These regulations were slowly whittled away through Congressional acts, pushed by banking lobbyists, and it is these deregulation acts that undermined the intent of previous legislatures, opening the door for the great housing bubble and the stock market woes. And yes, the Bush administration had a heavy hand in placing the U.S. government, and thus its citizenry, in dire financial straits. Not merely with his false wars, but also with his irresponsible spending and additional deregulations.

The governments have a responsibility to protect its citizenry. It failed to do so during the Bush administration (and some prior administrations). Instead, it catered to the military-industrial complex (for which Eisenhower posed firm warnings in his exit speech) and the banking/lending institutions. So, in firm discredit to your earlier statements, governments have indeed had a strong hand in recessions (in fact, almost every recession for the past 100 years), both in causation and resolution.


Hmm, I'm not going to participate in denigrating your child. I will, instead, point out that you haven't really posed what you define as your American Dream. However, I will addresss Apathy, which strikes many people and has struck many people for centuries. This is not something new and it is certainly not something associated with the American Dream. I would like to point out that it is a trend, for those who live off the silver spoon, having a tendency not to reach for the golden ring. In other words, if you had it good, and you will inherit what others have reaped, there's little motivation to step up and make an effort.


I mention the GOP because of the latest crap spewing from the mouth of that party, which has been overtaken by corporate pawns and anti-Americans posing as grass-roots. I also mention it because your laments sound like an echo of the propaganda I've heard on FOX and from dittoheads.

As to your presumption of me and my position, I am quite happy with people who succeed. I do, however, take offense to those who succeed and then look back "at the little people" with scorn. It offends me, as I am a firm believer in equality for all --- and that includes equal respect.

As to "patriotism," it is a common argument to solidify posturing, but means little in the context of what constitutes your definition of what a nation stands for.


Strawman. I never once indicated what my American dream was, nor did I infer otherwise. Remember my comment about "equality?" Well when a man making $4,000,000 a year pays a mere fraction of taxes as opposed to a man making $40,000 a year, I see a problem. Equal taxation, equal representation. We don't have that now, and in truth we never had it. So my view of the American dream doesn't exist, and never has. What we have instead is the hype.

And let me make it clear. In many countries, be it in Europe, Australia, Asia, or South America, there are people succeeding and people giving up. The "dream," as it pertains to your context, is not border-restrictive, it is not an "America-only" phenomenon.

As to your claim of, "take stuff from some and give it to others," you do realize you're attacking the notion of the New Deal, which birthed such fundamentally beneficial programs as Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans Administration, SBA, Unemployment Insurance, and Welfare. Without it, our elderly would be without care, our unemployed would quickly be thrown to the streets, our disabled veterans would have no options, our indigent would die for lack of health care, our temporarily downtrodden would have no opportunity for recovery, etc and so on.

So you're wrong. It is the government's responsibility to ensure we care for each other, rather than exploit our employees whilst blissfully drinking martinis via an iPad at the airport bar. The New Deal, and many of the other programs, went into effect to protect the masses from the few successful whose "hunger" has blinded them to their responsibility to care for those less fortunate.

Indeed, your stated position ignores American history.


Interesting, so your definition of the American dream is when the vultures have carrion to feed upon? Disturbing, I must say.

And yes, statistics have a lot to do with discrediting your earlier claims. You made claims that opportunities are not available as they used to be, and that the "hunger" is not like how it used to be. Both of these claims are refuted by statistics, those I presented.


You have a brutally wrong assumption of me, I suppose because it makes it easier for you to dismiss my statements. In any event, I will not share information about myself other than to say my family did not originate in the U.S. and that I have worked/volunteered in many programs, including Ronald McDonald House Charities, soup kitchens, care homes, mental health treatment facilities, etc and so on. I have donated countless hours and plenty of cash to support new businesses for minorities and assisted those in need when I could. Can you claim the same? I would like to say that you presume quite a bit about me, whereas I did not presume anything about you. I read what you stated and responded to your comments.

There, done defending myself against your blatantly personal character assaults. Now, if you wish to return to the debate at hand, I'm sure everyone reading would appreciate it.
.

I won't list my list of causes, but I will say that my wife and I spend a substantial portion of our personal wealth to help others. The fact that we all contribute to helping our National and Human community, is a good thing.
So from your point of view the government is responsible for insuring the people succeed? Right?
From your point of view things are better now than they have been over the last 30 years yes?
From your point of view it seems people should not contribute equally, rather those who worked harder and saved more should pay more than those who did not, yes? In other words if a person succeeded and saved all their lives now they should have to pay more than those who for whatever treason did not? Inequality in contribution, justified by what?
Those with more should carry a larger part of the burden. ABSOLUTLY. That is why we have increasing tax brackets.
In the end we never actually tax the rich. How can we, everyone in our government is a millionaire at least. We argue about taxing the rich, but we tax the middle class.
If we took ALL the money (not just tax) away from the top 1% of the wealthy in our country, we would have basically no impact on our economy. If we take a few thousand dollars away from every middle class family we can pay for everything, and we do a pretty good job of getting in the way of that thing I call the American dream.
What we are paying for, that is the problem. A shiny new even more invisible bomber to kill more people with? Not a good reason for more tax, in my book. Money to give people who contribute nothing to our society except crime? No not a good reason either.
Claiming the a person making 4 million dollars per year can somehow pay less than a person making 40K is inflammatory and totally impossible. Even at 100% long term capital gains tax it would be many many times more. Capital gains tax rate is 20% (not to mention the alternative minimum tax). Even if we made the impossible assumption that person had 2mill in QUALIFIED deductions… That would still be 2mill at 20% or $400,000 10 TIMES what the 40K earner ERNED and many many more times what that 40K earner pays in tax.
Really the problem is not that the 4mill guy paid “Only” 400K in tax…. The real problem is that he has 4mill and “it’s just not fair”… He should have to give some to the rest; he has too much…Right? In fairness some of this comes from senile old man like Buffet, who claim they pay a lower percentage of tax then their secretary, but forget to mention by what means they get their income. When asked by Maria Bartiromo once what color the carpet in his bedroom was he didn’t know that either.
Claiming you presumed nothing about me is silly, just read… You even presumed I drink Martinis.
One thing for sure. You are correct, none of this should be personal or the debate is not worth anything, so if what I said seemed an attack I apologize.
The rich being rich should not prevent anyone from succeeding. To the contrary, without them, there would be no American economy as we know it.
You will get no argument from me about how horrible the government is. All of it. Both sides.
I am just confused, on one hand you use statistics to try to prove that things are better today, and on the other hand, you claim that things are horrible solely because some have more than others.
Equality? Sure. Sameness, never gonna be.
Life is not that much different from an auto race. No matter what you do, there will always be one winner and one person who finishes last, and a bunch in between.
The people at the end will always feel it is because the people ahead of them especially the front runners got special treatment, better cars, more technology, more luck.
The people in the middle will pay most of the racing fees and try to struggle and break into the front rows.
Those up front; some will be good people and some will be bad people as in any group. Most will help everyone they can, they will take time to teach other drivers, and land a hand in schools and seminars.
Life is like that. Nobody is ever going to win a race because the race officials decide so. Even if they did it would not be a win…
Life is a race. Each of us is in a race against time. We strive to accomplish as much as we can in our allotted time so we can leave behind a legacy to our human race, and to our families.
Would you want it to be that the front runners in a race should have to run 3 or 4 extra laps in every race to make it more “fair” to everyone and more “equal”.
In the end, I don’t see much difference between us.
1) We both obviously care
2) We both have a distrust for abusive government
3) We both would love to see a society where no one is abused, or taken advantage of
How we do it is the diference.
But I dispute your claim that the American dream is alive and well and better than ever.
 
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DeletedUser3

So from your point of view the government is responsible for insuring the people succeed? Right?
Wrong

From your point of view things are better now than they have been over the last 30 years yes?
No

From your point of view it seems people should not contribute equally, rather those who worked harder and saved more should pay more than those who did not, yes? In other words if a person succeeded and saved all their lives now they should have to pay more than those who for whatever treason did not? Inequality in contribution, justified by what?
And here's your continued distortion. A man making $4,000,000 should not be paying the same "amount" as a man making $40,000. Equal percentage, not equal pay. You are also performing the sliver spoon distorted notion that someone making more money somehow works harder than those who make less (indeed, it is quite often the exact opposite). As to your argument of, "inequality in contribution," I am not surprised to hear that argument and it reaffirms my earlier comment about how your initial post demonstrated you are incensed at the Democratic efforts to ensure everyone pays an equal percentage of their income to their respective governments. You know, my comment <here> that you denied earlier but now full embrace in all its glory?

Anyway, we have here a failure to communicate. You are advocating laissez-faire governance that interacts with a money-driven political system "adjusted" to grant excessive power to the most affluent. In short, inequality that violates moral values. An argument that states inequality of wealth and political influence is acceptable, yet equal taxation is not. I cannot advocate any of that.

Let's also pose that a man making $40,000 annually is posed with living expenses on or about $30,000. Yet a man making $4,000,000 annually is posed with living expenses on or about $30,000, with all else being "luxury" and therefore not necessities for daily living. So then let's say we set a base rate for taxation, one based on the average income for all citizens. Let's say that taxation is $12,000 annually for every citizen. Now we have the man with $40,000 annual income, $30,000 in living expenses, and $12,000 in taxation, putting him at $2,000 in debt to the government. In contrast, we see the man with $4,000,000 annual income, minus $30,000 living expenses and $12,000 in taxation, and this poor man has $3,958,000 remaining. Fair?

It does surprise me that this very nation, and the citizens therein, that has provided everyone the opportunity to become successful cannot benefit from the opportunities they provided. Indeed, in my earlier research I was quite dismayed to see many millionaires have not paid back their government-subsidized student loans (in excess of $380,000,000,000) and who benefit from a multitude of government programs, the vast majority of which address I&E percentages (you know, that inconvenient truth?).

Those with more should carry a larger part of the burden. ABSOLUTLY. That is why we have increasing tax brackets.
And yet you argued the exact opposite. Also, those tax brackets are not equal and do not address the other forms of income available to the wealthy, the means and manner by which they obtain their respective wealth (capital gains, stocks, investments, etc). This is something presently being argued in Congress and the White House, but is unlikely to be addressed in our lifetimes.

If we took ALL the money (not just tax) away from the top 1% of the wealthy in our country, we would have basically no impact on our economy. If we take a few thousand dollars away from every middle class family we can pay for everything, and we do a pretty good job of getting in the way of that thing I call the American dream.
This is another distraction argument, posing the notion of taking all the money away from the top 1%, when the real argument is about equal taxation. But, I'm going to bite and see if you're silly enough to exploit that argument.

At present, in the U.S., the top 1% holds 43% of all U.S. wealth, the top 5% holds 72% of all U.S. Wealth. Take a gander at the American Pie chart for insight into just how incorrect is your previous statement:

financial_wealth_pie_chart_650px.jpg


What we are paying for, that is the problem. <...> Money to give people who contribute nothing to our society except crime? No not a good reason either.
Interesting. So you just made a claim, in your previous post, of people looking down on you when you were down and out, and yet you just posed the exact same thing with that above statement, essentially referring to those needing government assistance as being "people who contribute nothing to our society except crime." Hypocrisy much?

In fairness some of this comes from senile old man like Buffet, who claim they pay a lower percentage of tax then their secretary, but forget to mention by what means they get their income.
First, attempting to discredit Warren Buffet by calling him a, "senile old man" is a desperate fallacious argument. Second, it doesn't matter "how" you obtain your income, it's still income. Geez...

so if what I said seemed an attack I apologize.
A backhanded apology if I ever heard one. Anyway, I'm not offended by your hypocrisy. ;)

I am just confused, on one hand you use statistics to try to prove that things are better today, and on the other hand, you claim that things are horrible solely because some have more than others.
I posed statistics to refute your comments that things are worse today, that the American dream is gone. I did not pose statistics to state that things are better, nor did I assert such. I also did not claim that things are horrible solely because some have more than others.

To be quite frank, I am not sure why you keep creating all these fabrications. It's as if by posing so many red herrings you hope to distract the readers from your earlier erroneous assertions.

But I dispute your claim that the American dream is alive and well and better than ever.
lol, wait... did you bother to read my earlier post? The one where I said, "my view of the American dream doesn't exist, and never has. What we have instead is the hype."

Let me know when putting words in my mouth, distorting what I state, actually pays off for you.
 

DeletedUser2259

Wrong


No


And here's your continued distortion. A man making $4,000,000 should not be paying the same "amount" as a man making $40,000. Equal percentage, not equal pay. You are also performing the sliver spoon distorted notion that someone making more money somehow works harder than those who make less (indeed, it is quite often the exact opposite). As to your argument of, "inequality in contribution," I am not surprised to hear that argument and it reaffirms my earlier comment about how your initial post demonstrated you are incensed at the Democratic efforts to ensure everyone pays an equal percentage of their income to their respective governments. You know, my comment <here> that you denied earlier but now full embrace in all its glory?

Anyway, we have here a failure to communicate. You are advocating laissez-faire governance that interacts with a money-driven political system "adjusted" to grant excessive power to the most affluent. In short, inequality that violates moral values. An argument that states inequality of wealth and political influence is acceptable, yet equal taxation is not. I cannot advocate any of that.

Let's also pose that a man making $40,000 annually is posed with living expenses on or about $30,000. Yet a man making $4,000,000 annually is posed with living expenses on or about $30,000, with all else being "luxury" and therefore not necessities for daily living. So then let's say we set a base rate for taxation, one based on the average income for all citizens. Let's say that taxation is $12,000 annually for every citizen. Now we have the man with $40,000 annual income, $30,000 in living expenses, and $12,000 in taxation, putting him at $2,000 in debt to the government. In contrast, we see the man with $4,000,000 annual income, minus $30,000 living expenses and $12,000 in taxation, and this poor man has $3,958,000 remaining. Fair?

It does surprise me that this very nation, and the citizens therein, that has provided everyone the opportunity to become successful cannot benefit from the opportunities they provided. Indeed, in my earlier research I was quite dismayed to see many millionaires have not paid back their government-subsidized student loans (in excess of $380,000,000,000) and who benefit from a multitude of government programs, the vast majority of which address I&E percentages (you know, that inconvenient truth?).


And yet you argued the exact opposite. Also, those tax brackets are not equal and do not address the other forms of income available to the wealthy, the means and manner by which they obtain their respective wealth (capital gains, stocks, investments, etc). This is something presently being argued in Congress and the White House, but is unlikely to be addressed in our lifetimes.


This is another distraction argument, posing the notion of taking all the money away from the top 1%, when the real argument is about equal taxation. But, I'm going to bite and see if you're silly enough to exploit that argument.

At present, in the U.S., the top 1% holds 43% of all U.S. wealth, the top 5% holds 72% of all U.S. Wealth. Take a gander at the American Pie chart for insight into just how incorrect is your previous statement:

financial_wealth_pie_chart_650px.jpg



Interesting. So you just made a claim, in your previous post, of people looking down on you when you were down and out, and yet you just posed the exact same thing with that above statement, essentially referring to those needing government assistance as being "people who contribute nothing to our society except crime." Hypocrisy much?


First, attempting to discredit Warren Buffet by calling him a, "senile old man" is a desperate fallacious argument. Second, it doesn't matter "how" you obtain your income, it's still income. Geez...


A backhanded apology if I ever heard one. Anyway, I'm not offended by your hypocrisy. ;)


I posed statistics to refute your comments that things are worse today, that the American dream is gone. I did not pose statistics to state that things are better, nor did I assert such. I also did not claim that things are horrible solely because some have more than others.

To be quite frank, I am not sure why you keep creating all these fabrications. It's as if by posing so many red herrings you hope to distract the readers from your earlier erroneous assertions.


lol, wait... did you bother to read my earlier post? The one where I said, "my view of the American dream doesn't exist, and never has. What we have instead is the hype."

Let me know when putting words in my mouth, distorting what I state, actually pays off for you.


I'm sorry.
None of that makes any sense to me. None. You go around in circles.

Although I am totally incapable of understanding much ofwhat you are saying, I do get your point clearly.
Those “other people” should pay more.
The government has a responsibility to provide.
The American dream does not exist.
…..
I came to the US to get away from that very way of thinking.Hence why I feel the way I do today.
 

DeletedUser

Some charts and statistics left out . . .

number on food stamps at a record high
labor participation rate at historical lows
worst recovery in modern history
number of Americans renouncing citizenship at historical highs
percentage not paying federal income taxes at record highs
$85 billion per month in fresh money printing just to net 1% growth.
QE4vah driving stock market to records highs, while saving class destroyed by devalued dollar
$1 Trillion deficits past 5 years just to net 1% growth
Country without a budget for over 4 years.

Socialism/Marxism/Communism. Never worked, never will. You always run out of other people's money.

When it collapses, and it will, and the producers have all gone Galt, have a nice day, because blaming everyone else won't feed you our your family.
 
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