Napoleon Bonaparte Questline Feedback

[DeletedUser31592]

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you; precisely because it's legal to steal in this game, the only defense is to leave nothing out to steal. But, again, that doesn't mean it's not stealing.

I said it was stealing.

Personally, in real life, if I left something expensive out and open for someone to steal, I will be more angry with myself for someone taking it than I would be at the person who took it. My fault for not securing it. (I, personally, am never going to steal something from anyone. Never have, never will. Well, I may be up to stealing an abused pet, but that is an entirely different conversation.)

Same thing with the game- if I leave my 'stuff' lying around exposed and someone plunders it, I'm more angry with myself. I didn't secure it, so my fault.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

I said it was stealing.

Personally, in real life, if I left something expensive out and open for someone to steal, I will be more angry with myself for someone taking it than I would be at the person who took it. My fault for not securing it. (I, personally, am never going to steal something from anyone. Never have, never will. Well, I may be up to stealing an abused pet, but that is an entirely different conversation.)

Same thing with the game- if I leave my 'stuff' lying around exposed and someone plunders it, I'm more angry with myself. I didn't secure it, so my fault.

Love that take on it, oh, except I'm pretty sure the thief can never get off by telling the judge "hey, they didn't secure it well enough for me so" but you go ahead and blame yourself, it takes a true hero to take on the responsibility of the depraved.

 

[DeletedUser31882]

That being said, I do belief that uncollected buildings are still "technically" the "property" of the player that placed them there. Plundering is a part of the game. The different names for it do not matter.

I am of the same mind, except for a minor point on the different names not mattering. For the people using the 'I'm not stealing, I'm collecting your uncollected productions..." it strikes me that they are not comfortable with the label of thief, thus they must rationalize their actions as not bad. I see similar mental gymnastics with software/music pirates 'justifying' their actions. It's interesting how the internet & digitization of goods shows a similarity with people acting more anti-social thanks to internet anonymity. Rather, thanks to the lack of fear of repercussions for their actions. To be fair, I don't think you were alluding to that sort of justification.

That's just a rationalization, Ozy, when there isn't need for one. Taking other people's stuff by force is legal and encouraged in this game, okay, cool. That's an objective fact: there are no 'legal' ramifications for doing so. But it doesn't magically transform the act into something other than taking other people's stuff by force.

We are now literally arguing semantics.

I love arguing semantics! Speaking of which, I would argue Inno doesn't encourage, but merely allows players to pillage. If there were quests,events or DC tasks telling the player to pillage on daily basis, then I would say Inno sanctions stealing from thy neighbors. A one-off quest introducing a player to pillaging doesn't fall into sanctioned or encouraged in my book.

Same thing with the game- if I leave my 'stuff' lying around exposed and someone plunders it, I'm more angry with myself. I didn't secure it, so my fault.

It's a smart philosophy, if we us it to promote how we should remain vigilant and devise ways to protect ourselves, family and our property. The potential issue with the thought is if it results in victim-blaming. I always think of phrases like "Why did he walk down that alley in the middle of night? He was asking for it!" and such when the conversation shifts away from the 'crime & criminal' and onto the actions of the 'victim'. I suppose it is only bad if it takes away from the persecution of the offender. Sure, I can beat myself up over leaving my expensive bike outside, but that in no way excuses the person who took the bike. We can pursue justice AND look into ways of preventing my next bike from meeting a similar fate.


The fun take away I get from these kind of discussions is the brief window view into the personal character of the individuals posing particular arguments. Most people agree that stealing is wrong, but we also must acknowledge that morality isn't black and white. Ye olde 'man steals medicine to save the dying wife' from philosophy 101 for instance. I like see the many hues of grey morality. It also helps inform my decision on if I lend the person money. That being said...

I dislike the 'uncollected is not yours, thus not stealing' argument. See my point on Software/music pirates.
I'm okay with the 'Taxation' stance. Many people argue over what tax money should be spent on, but in the end, the bigger and more powerful entity will collect what it feels is due. Kind of like Napoleon's conquests... right?

 

[DeletedUser31440]

Bear in mind that this discussion is solely confined to the realm of this game and that is where my position comes from:

Possessions in this game are objects that can be used by the player to perform an action in the game. There are many different resources that are possessed by players while playing, but they are all items that the player can utilize. That may be in the form of spending goods in GE, coins on RQ's, diamonds on expansions, etc. all of these and more are usable and can be either stored or spent by the player. Uncollected productions are not possessed by anyone until they are collected as they cannot be used by anyone until after they are collected. While a player may have invested time, coins, supplies, space, population and happiness to get a production they have not possessed said production until they have collected it. In the period of time between a production finishing and the production being collected the production sits in a limbo status where anybody that has access can claim it as their own. As that production has yet to be claimed, it can't be stolen.

With all of that said, none of the above is moral justification for the action. I personally don't like plundering and only do it after being invited by another player to visit their city.

 

[DeletedUser13736]

I am of the same mind, except for a minor point on the different names not mattering. For the people using the 'I'm not stealing, I'm collecting your uncollected productions..." it strikes me that they are not comfortable with the label of thief, thus they must rationalize their actions as not bad. I see similar mental gymnastics with software/music pirates 'justifying' their actions. It's interesting how the internet & digitization of goods shows a similarity with people acting more anti-social thanks to internet anonymity. Rather, thanks to the lack of fear of repercussions for their actions. To be fair, I don't think you were alluding to that sort of justification.

Good points on internet piracy and relative anonymity, and like you said, I was not alluding to that justification. I can see where you are coming from. I'm of the mindset that "labels"(for lack of a better word) are useful if used sparingly. I will not stop plundering, and I'm sure many others won't either; it doesn't matter if I'm being called a thief or a sh** slime (best nickname I got from a hoodie) because it's a game. A game I love to play.

 

[DeletedUser31882]

Possessions in this game are objects that can be used by the player to perform an action in the game. There are many different resources that are possessed by players while playing, but they are all items that the player can utilize. That may be in the form of spending goods in GE, coins on RQ's, diamonds on expansions, etc. all of these and more are usable and can be either stored or spent by the player. Uncollected productions are not possessed by anyone until they are collected as they cannot be used by anyone until after they are collected. While a player may have invested time, coins, supplies, space, population and happiness to get a production they have not possessed said production until they have collected it. In the period of time between a production finishing and the production being collected the production sits in a limbo status where anybody that has access can claim it as their own. As that production has yet to be claimed, it can't be stolen.

I feel your logic skips a step in the "In the period of time between a production finishing and the production being collected the production sits in a limbo status where anybody that has access can claim it as their own". The access part is important. I feel the logic could be used the exact same for walking into an unlocked bakery, that one does not own and walking out with a loaf of bread. Nobody, except maybe some 2 SP defenders & push accounts, gives willing access to their city and thus their production buildings. Ergo, we must attack a city to gain access. That attack is a transgression. Regardless if it was a morally justified retributive strike, a quest/battle point seeker or a rum-drunk pirate looking for FP, that transgression contextualizes any following actions. It firmly plants the productions as 'owned' by one city, and not another.

I view logic as universal, so restricting it by confining it to the realm of this game doesn't work from my argument position. That being said, I believe I understand why the logic has to be restrained to something specific. Without that constraint, the analogy of the bakery highlights how 'stealing still be stealin'!' or something. That being said...

I agree with @braeden12323 's point on labels. Maybe that is why I prefer the 'taxman' label over the 'I'm just collecting your uncollected goods'. The former has a distinct label, the latter feels like the speaker is trying to avoid a label, which makes me suspicious. Suspicion leads me to an easier label of thief/stealing/etc. Regardless, it is a game, so in that spirit I shan't beat the horse further. Napoleon might leave me before I can hook him up with Cleo.