DeletedUser28132
Edit: The original post was titled "The no sniping rule, a terrible idea" I have given this topic much thought and now better understand my own point and would like to clarify it: what I was really railing against was swap threads, not sniping. I leave the content of this original post in tact so the comments make sense, but please understand that what I am getting at is that my no sniping opinion is contingent upon having swap threads, which many are finally coming to realize are evil. Many top guilds have done away with swap threads and now only have a single 1:9 boost thread. With a 1:9 boost thread, of course sniping in-guild is wrong and should be discouraged. Thank you, FH
Here's the summation for tldr whiners: A "no sniping" rule only considers one side of a forge point exchange on a GB (i.e.) the player in guild that is getting something for nothing. It does not consider the down sides of this rule, where the owner of the great building gets nothing in exchange. There are other factors that are wrong with this rule, but primarily it hurts players and a guild by forcing them to give away without compensation. It also encourages players to spend and award their top spots outside of the guild, where "no sniping" rules can't be enforced.
WHAT IS SNIPING?
Sniping in FoA is generally defined as anyone that gains a reward spot on a GB by paying for it with non-swaped forge points, while in the process bumping other players down the reward list on the swap thread. It is acceptable for out-of-guild GBs, but the No Sniping Rule prohibits it in the in-guild swap threads. You are only allowed to pass guild members on the Swap threads by using the swap threads.
But how can you tell if someone has sniped? It would require a very difficult and lengthy audit of the swap threads, and even then, it’s hard to tell. Also, there are numerous ways to game the rule, such as simply tipping off an non-guild player to come "snipe you", and many others ways, but suffice to say, it can be very difficult to determine if a snipe has occurred or even define it.
THE TERM "SNIPING" IS A MISNOMER
Sniping is used to refer to something bad, but if you look at what is happening it is not bad at all. In fact, it is a better outcome because it has two winning parties, whereas a swap position only has one. More importantly, the worst that can happen to a person on a swap thread is they break even. There is no loss. The term sniping is the wrong word to use for this activity. A much more accurate term for what this debate is about would be a prohibition on free trade. It’s only called sniping because the people that were hoping for a reward for free feel cheated.
THE ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF "NO SNIPING" IS GREATLY FLAWED
No Sniping only considers the down side of the activity and ignores the upside. Sniping is considered bad because the people playing the swap threads are all bumped down by a paying player, and they don’t get the free payout they were expecting. But there is a huge upside to this situation: the person with the GB gets a big reward as well. This upside applies to all guild members, so everyone on the swap threads can enjoy this benefit when it's time for their GB to be leveled.
Let’s take an example:
A level 20 Alcatraz pays 200 fps for first place. The swap threads top winner would be 200 fp for that position, plus any bonuses. But the person getting “cheated” by sniping is assumed to be the smaller players, so his bonus should be small. With "sniping" allowed (free trade) the top spot would be paid for. Let’s say a guild member with a level 80 arc buys it for 330 fps and his gain would be 50 fps. The “smaller” GB owner gets 330 The total gain in this scenario is 380 fps, with two people benefiting. But more importantly, the smaller player got 330 fps, while the bigger player got 50. The Free Trade method distributed more forge points and did so far more equitably.
WHO BENEFITS MOST FROM ‘NO SNIPING’ RULES?
Short answer: the whales. Big players benefit most from no sniping rules as they have the means to dominate the swap threads, only now they don’t have to pay for their positions, so they get to keep 100% of their reward. Without the no sniping rule, they would have to share the majority of their reward with the GB owner. To confirm this, go through your guild’s last round of top GBs there were leveled and notice who took the majority of the tops spots.
The other person that benefits most from No Sniping Rules are players outside your guild, preventing your guild from receiving the reward from its own players.
WHY IS IT OKAY FOR SOMEONE TO BUMP EVERYONE DOWN BY USING THE SWAP THREADS, BUT NOT OKAY FOR SOMEONE TO DO THE SAME THING BY PAYING FOR IT?
The outcome is the same, except when someone pays, the GB owner receives a reward, and a more equitable one at that.
IT IS NOT TRUE THAT SMALLER PLAYERS WILL NOT ADVANCE WITHOUT THE NO SNIPE RULE
This is just fear mongering on the part of those who don’t want to actually debate the issue. Smaller players will advance even if they never win a single spot in the swap threads. There are many ways to get fps. Swap threads are not the only way. The best way for a smaller player to get a top GB award position is to make a deal with another player for a swap so they can lock in the top spot before any donations are made to those GBs. You can even do it on a pay-as-you-go method so you don’t need to come up with all of the fps at once. Also, smaller players DO gain the award spots on the swap threads occasionally. It is an exaggeration to say ALL the award spots will go to bigger players.
BULLET POINTS
"NO SNIPING" HURTS A GUILD BY:
- It only benefits one person; the non paying player.
- It hurts the person with the GB since they could sell that position.
- It pushes guild members with fps to invest to go outside of the guild to spend them.
- It hurts the time it takes for the GB to get leveled
- It hurts the guild in that you greatly limit in-guild donations and only allow outsiders to benefit.
- it rewards bad behavior. Getting the full bonus of a top position for no cost when someone else would gladly pay for it is not a behavior that should be encouraged.
- It mostly benefits bigger players who have the means to dominate the swap threads.
ALLOWING FREE TRADE HELPS:
- Encourage players to lock in their positions and not be greedy.
- Encourages guildmates, especially big players, to give a majority of their profit back to the player they are supporting.
- It moves the game along quicker. GBs will be leveled faster.
- It builds comradery rather than resentment. Someone that gives 330 free fps to your GB will be looked at much more favorably than someone you were forced to give that spot away to for free.
- it encourages players to build partnerships with other players to lock in top spots.
THE ARC CHANGED EVERYTHING AND WE NEED NO SNIPE RULES TO FIX THE ARC BOOST - NO
Arcs were added to the game a few years ago as a buff, or a fix. It solves the problem of how painfully slow it can be to level up your GBs (unless you are willing to spend $$$$). Though it is true that high level Arcs give players a huge advantage, that only means that that same huge advantage is available to you as well, so make getting an arc and leveling it up a high priority. But there is an upside of that to all players as well: the arc is the reason someone can come in to your level 10 Alcatraz and pay you 150 fps for your 1st position, even though it only pays an 85 fps award, and still walk away with a dozen free fps just for that minimal effort. Not too shabby for both parties, but especially for you, the GB owner.
ALLOWING GUILDMATES TO SNIPE IS SELFISH AND RUDE - NOPE
The opposite is true. What is selfish is to deny a player what they are due. They are due the fps for that GB spot that they can easily sell. The person buying it makes a profit, so it’s a win/win. With the “no snipe” rule, the person that takes that spot for free produces a win/loss situation. THAT is rude. Remember - the worst that can happen to someone on the swap threads is they break even. They are not a victim! Listen, anybody that is hoping to get your car for free is going to feel cheated when someone finally comes along and pays for it. Result: One bitter guy out nothing, two people happy with the outcome. Ans this is called "sniping?"
IF YOU DON'T HAVE A NO SNIPING RULE THE GUILD WILL FALL INTO ARMAGEDDON AND THEN WE WILL ALL DIE - YES
Whatever, Nostrodomus. Who am I to argue. You won the debate.
There are many reasons why guilds fail. Lazy players not winning a 300 fp award for free is not one of them. The number one fiend in FoA is time. Ironically, the more players help each other and pitch in, the less time this game takes. The bottom line is - do the members of a guild have the character to not revolt just because they can’t lock in top positions on GBs for free? I believe they can. Don't believe the gloom and doom stories of people that say they have witnessed first hand what happens to a guild that doesn't have a No Sniping rule. The truth is, most buildings in any guild are already being "sniped", so clearly the reason that guild fell apart was not free trade.
SURELY THERE NEED TO BE SOME SORT OF RULES AND REGULATIONS. RIGHT? YES (and stop calling me Shirley)
There are some activities that are selfish, rude and should be prohibited. For example:
ONE FINAL THOUGHT
What about all the poor, unwashed little people that are starving to death for lack of forge points and high leveled arcs. Don’t you care about them? - No, but that's beside the point.
The lower players in any game are always at a disadvantage. This is not due to a nefarious mistreatment of smaller players, it’s just math. This game is about building an Empire. The better, more experienced players have received a reward for all of their time and hard work. This is not to say that those that are able should not help smaller guild members advance in the game, they should and mostly they do, but more than anything, smaller players help themselves if they hope to advance at a healthy pace.
This is a game. Bumping people from their unpaid spots because they were unable or too cheap to lock in their position is not mean. They lost nothing. We are all small at one point. The bottom line is this: if you want a reward position, lock it in!
Thank you,
- FilthyHorse
Here's the summation for tldr whiners: A "no sniping" rule only considers one side of a forge point exchange on a GB (i.e.) the player in guild that is getting something for nothing. It does not consider the down sides of this rule, where the owner of the great building gets nothing in exchange. There are other factors that are wrong with this rule, but primarily it hurts players and a guild by forcing them to give away without compensation. It also encourages players to spend and award their top spots outside of the guild, where "no sniping" rules can't be enforced.
WHAT IS SNIPING?
Sniping in FoA is generally defined as anyone that gains a reward spot on a GB by paying for it with non-swaped forge points, while in the process bumping other players down the reward list on the swap thread. It is acceptable for out-of-guild GBs, but the No Sniping Rule prohibits it in the in-guild swap threads. You are only allowed to pass guild members on the Swap threads by using the swap threads.
But how can you tell if someone has sniped? It would require a very difficult and lengthy audit of the swap threads, and even then, it’s hard to tell. Also, there are numerous ways to game the rule, such as simply tipping off an non-guild player to come "snipe you", and many others ways, but suffice to say, it can be very difficult to determine if a snipe has occurred or even define it.
THE TERM "SNIPING" IS A MISNOMER
Sniping is used to refer to something bad, but if you look at what is happening it is not bad at all. In fact, it is a better outcome because it has two winning parties, whereas a swap position only has one. More importantly, the worst that can happen to a person on a swap thread is they break even. There is no loss. The term sniping is the wrong word to use for this activity. A much more accurate term for what this debate is about would be a prohibition on free trade. It’s only called sniping because the people that were hoping for a reward for free feel cheated.
THE ARGUMENT IN FAVOR OF "NO SNIPING" IS GREATLY FLAWED
No Sniping only considers the down side of the activity and ignores the upside. Sniping is considered bad because the people playing the swap threads are all bumped down by a paying player, and they don’t get the free payout they were expecting. But there is a huge upside to this situation: the person with the GB gets a big reward as well. This upside applies to all guild members, so everyone on the swap threads can enjoy this benefit when it's time for their GB to be leveled.
Let’s take an example:
A level 20 Alcatraz pays 200 fps for first place. The swap threads top winner would be 200 fp for that position, plus any bonuses. But the person getting “cheated” by sniping is assumed to be the smaller players, so his bonus should be small. With "sniping" allowed (free trade) the top spot would be paid for. Let’s say a guild member with a level 80 arc buys it for 330 fps and his gain would be 50 fps. The “smaller” GB owner gets 330 The total gain in this scenario is 380 fps, with two people benefiting. But more importantly, the smaller player got 330 fps, while the bigger player got 50. The Free Trade method distributed more forge points and did so far more equitably.
WHO BENEFITS MOST FROM ‘NO SNIPING’ RULES?
Short answer: the whales. Big players benefit most from no sniping rules as they have the means to dominate the swap threads, only now they don’t have to pay for their positions, so they get to keep 100% of their reward. Without the no sniping rule, they would have to share the majority of their reward with the GB owner. To confirm this, go through your guild’s last round of top GBs there were leveled and notice who took the majority of the tops spots.
The other person that benefits most from No Sniping Rules are players outside your guild, preventing your guild from receiving the reward from its own players.
WHY IS IT OKAY FOR SOMEONE TO BUMP EVERYONE DOWN BY USING THE SWAP THREADS, BUT NOT OKAY FOR SOMEONE TO DO THE SAME THING BY PAYING FOR IT?
The outcome is the same, except when someone pays, the GB owner receives a reward, and a more equitable one at that.
IT IS NOT TRUE THAT SMALLER PLAYERS WILL NOT ADVANCE WITHOUT THE NO SNIPE RULE
This is just fear mongering on the part of those who don’t want to actually debate the issue. Smaller players will advance even if they never win a single spot in the swap threads. There are many ways to get fps. Swap threads are not the only way. The best way for a smaller player to get a top GB award position is to make a deal with another player for a swap so they can lock in the top spot before any donations are made to those GBs. You can even do it on a pay-as-you-go method so you don’t need to come up with all of the fps at once. Also, smaller players DO gain the award spots on the swap threads occasionally. It is an exaggeration to say ALL the award spots will go to bigger players.
BULLET POINTS
"NO SNIPING" HURTS A GUILD BY:
- It only benefits one person; the non paying player.
- It hurts the person with the GB since they could sell that position.
- It pushes guild members with fps to invest to go outside of the guild to spend them.
- It hurts the time it takes for the GB to get leveled
- It hurts the guild in that you greatly limit in-guild donations and only allow outsiders to benefit.
- it rewards bad behavior. Getting the full bonus of a top position for no cost when someone else would gladly pay for it is not a behavior that should be encouraged.
- It mostly benefits bigger players who have the means to dominate the swap threads.
ALLOWING FREE TRADE HELPS:
- Encourage players to lock in their positions and not be greedy.
- Encourages guildmates, especially big players, to give a majority of their profit back to the player they are supporting.
- It moves the game along quicker. GBs will be leveled faster.
- It builds comradery rather than resentment. Someone that gives 330 free fps to your GB will be looked at much more favorably than someone you were forced to give that spot away to for free.
- it encourages players to build partnerships with other players to lock in top spots.
THE ARC CHANGED EVERYTHING AND WE NEED NO SNIPE RULES TO FIX THE ARC BOOST - NO
Arcs were added to the game a few years ago as a buff, or a fix. It solves the problem of how painfully slow it can be to level up your GBs (unless you are willing to spend $$$$). Though it is true that high level Arcs give players a huge advantage, that only means that that same huge advantage is available to you as well, so make getting an arc and leveling it up a high priority. But there is an upside of that to all players as well: the arc is the reason someone can come in to your level 10 Alcatraz and pay you 150 fps for your 1st position, even though it only pays an 85 fps award, and still walk away with a dozen free fps just for that minimal effort. Not too shabby for both parties, but especially for you, the GB owner.
ALLOWING GUILDMATES TO SNIPE IS SELFISH AND RUDE - NOPE
The opposite is true. What is selfish is to deny a player what they are due. They are due the fps for that GB spot that they can easily sell. The person buying it makes a profit, so it’s a win/win. With the “no snipe” rule, the person that takes that spot for free produces a win/loss situation. THAT is rude. Remember - the worst that can happen to someone on the swap threads is they break even. They are not a victim! Listen, anybody that is hoping to get your car for free is going to feel cheated when someone finally comes along and pays for it. Result: One bitter guy out nothing, two people happy with the outcome. Ans this is called "sniping?"
IF YOU DON'T HAVE A NO SNIPING RULE THE GUILD WILL FALL INTO ARMAGEDDON AND THEN WE WILL ALL DIE - YES
Whatever, Nostrodomus. Who am I to argue. You won the debate.
There are many reasons why guilds fail. Lazy players not winning a 300 fp award for free is not one of them. The number one fiend in FoA is time. Ironically, the more players help each other and pitch in, the less time this game takes. The bottom line is - do the members of a guild have the character to not revolt just because they can’t lock in top positions on GBs for free? I believe they can. Don't believe the gloom and doom stories of people that say they have witnessed first hand what happens to a guild that doesn't have a No Sniping rule. The truth is, most buildings in any guild are already being "sniped", so clearly the reason that guild fell apart was not free trade.
SURELY THERE NEED TO BE SOME SORT OF RULES AND REGULATIONS. RIGHT? YES (and stop calling me Shirley)
There are some activities that are selfish, rude and should be prohibited. For example:
- When people are trying for top spots to get Observatory blueprints: Anyone that already has an observatory should never take those top spots. What are you, Bernie Madoff? It’s like 5 fps , give it a rest and let the noob get his blueprints.
- When someone has locked in a top spot on a GB so no outsider can bump them, but there are still those behind him in the guild that have placed trades through the swaps that can pass him, and then do. THIS is true sniping. You forced your guildmate into an actual loss. This brings up an interesting problem. How can you tell if someone paid for their spot or not? Another reason No Sniping Rules are useless.
ONE FINAL THOUGHT
What about all the poor, unwashed little people that are starving to death for lack of forge points and high leveled arcs. Don’t you care about them? - No, but that's beside the point.
The lower players in any game are always at a disadvantage. This is not due to a nefarious mistreatment of smaller players, it’s just math. This game is about building an Empire. The better, more experienced players have received a reward for all of their time and hard work. This is not to say that those that are able should not help smaller guild members advance in the game, they should and mostly they do, but more than anything, smaller players help themselves if they hope to advance at a healthy pace.
This is a game. Bumping people from their unpaid spots because they were unable or too cheap to lock in their position is not mean. They lost nothing. We are all small at one point. The bottom line is this: if you want a reward position, lock it in!
Thank you,
- FilthyHorse
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