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Please rework the calculation for ranking

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
Maybe you should read the title of the thread. Just because the OP was talking about guild ranks doesn’t mean Im not allowed to go a different direction about reworking calculations for rankings (guild or individual)
Maybe you should read your statement that I was responding to. You said that leveling GBs is a part of guild rankings. I'm just correcting your misinformation. They're not.

And if you're now trying to spin your way out of it by claiming that you were saying that GBs should be a part of individual rankings, then you've already gotten your wish. They are.
 

UnStopaBull

Member
Maybe you should read your statement that I was responding to. You said that leveling GBs is a part of guild rankings. I'm just correcting your misinformation. They're not.

And if you're now trying to spin your way out of it by claiming that you were saying that GBs should be a part of individual rankings, then you've already gotten your wish. They are.
im not spinning my way out of anything , of course GBs are part of individual rank, my point was that 65k FPS to level (arc 181) should be worth a whole lot more , not a whole lot less , than one average players fighting for the day gets them.
 

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
im not spinning my way out of anything , of course GBs are part of individual rank, my point was that 65k FPS to level (arc 181) should be worth a whole lot more , not a whole lot less , than one average players fighting for the day gets them.
First world problem.
 

wolfhoundtoo

Well-Known Member
I’ve moved my rank 20m+ in one day many times , that is more than some who have played the game for years have earned in all their time playing (thats a problem). Im not saying this as the noob who can’t catch up to someone ahead of me, I’m saying the system is unfair as someone who is at the top. You can view it as me wanting something and in a way I guess it is. I want the game ive played for years to be better. Just like the OP. You say we can all just play on PC too..I say a game and it’s rank should not be highly dependent on the device one wishes to play. The fact that INNO has not taken any actions to address this is a joke. Why have ranks at all if its not done fairly?

'Fairly" as defined by you. They made a business decision not to port over GVG to mobile (why? If they explained it I don't remember and honestly don't care because they made the decision and that's their call). What you seem to be ignoring is why would anyone do GVG if it's not a major benefit for the guild? GE you get rewards and goods wise is very cheap but you don't really get that large a benefit for the guild really. GBG gives oodles and oodles (as you well know) of personal benefits in fps (there are other items but i'm guessing after a significant time in a top of the food chain GBG guild it's only the fps that still matter to you). You act like it's a mistake on their part rather than a deliberate design choice. You simply disagree with it but that doesn't make it unfair. No doubt they made the decision based on what they thought their player base (the paying player base) would do if they got rid of GVG. So long as they've decided that its worth keeping from a revenue stand point you wanting them to change the rankings so that a feature that is already geared to reward the players very well is even better while correspondingly lessening the value of another feature?

That is ultimately what I was trying to get across when I said it wasn't done as a whole item but piecemeal as they added features. The logic of it is much clearer when viewed in that manner. And in the end 'fair' is a poor reason for a change to be made since 'fair' is in the eye of the beholder so in that case I do think its fair that Inno gets to decide what's fair for their bottom line. :D
 

Altercus

New Member
Sure enjoyed reading the argument about whether FoE is a video game or not. It would be like having an argument whether or not the sun is hot. I used to play such games as Civilization, Romance of the Three Kingdoms and Sim City. It was a surprise to me to find out I wasn't playing video games at the time. Or was it the platform that determined whether something is a video game or not? So confusing!

As to whether there should be an adjustment to how guild rankings are calculated then the answer is yes. As noted many times, GvG is played by 5% of players and available only on PC whereas GBG is played by far more people and available on on smartphone which is used by the vast majority of players. Yet GvG has by far the largest impact on guild rankings. This is a tail that wags the dog. I defy anyone to explain how this is good for the majority of players, guilds or the game itself in a manner that's consistent with logic and not just self-serving nonsense because the current situation is good for your guild.
 

Algona

Well-Known Member
I defy anyone to explain how this is good for the majority of players, guilds or the game itself in a manner that's consistent with logic.
Sounds like fun.

Any third factor in addition to Guild Level and GBG will be decisive in Guild Ranking.

GvG has no effect on game balance issues aside from Guild Ranking because there are no personal Rewards. Guild Ranking being the only tangible reward from GvG is one of the few reasons players play GvG.

Current top GvG Guilds would most likely dominate any other third aspect chosen for Guild Ranking and quite possibly divert resources from GvG to that aspect affecting game balance.

INNO considers GvG just the way it is an integral part if the game from a profit perspective. Changing the one tangible reward, Guild Ranking, might impact that profitability.

Therefore for the good of the game there is no better choice then GvG for the third and decisive factor in Guild Ranking.

The rest of this post explains the above.

not just self-serving nonsense because the current situation is good for your guild.
Removing GvG from Guild Ranking would not affect me directly or personally.

I thoroughly enjoy GvG. I've never joined a Guild that emphasized GvG despite being courted for years to do so. Like so many other aspects of the game GvG goes from fun to grind easily.

Yet GvG has by far the largest impact on guild rankings.
Right, but maybe not quite the way you think. If you had said 'decisive' versus 'impact' you would be exactly right.

The reason why is of the three sources of Prestige, two are capped, Guild Level (2500) and GBG LP (18,000). Those two being capped is what makes GvG decisive, it breaks ties.

It doesn't matter what the third factor is because it will be decisive by breaking ties unless the amount of Prestige from the tiebreaker is less then half the amount of the lesser of the other two capped factors.

GvG does have a huge impact on Guild Ranking. GvG is the decisive factor, but GBG has more impact on Guild Ranking.

Guilds that were not top 100 pre GBG now rank in the top 20.

Pre GBG most Guilds got their Guild Rank through Guild Level, holding even a handful of GvG Sectors made a huge difference in Guild Rank.

More players have access to GBG, the threshold for effective participation is much lower for GBG, and the time and resources needed to have effective results in Prestige are much less for GBG.

The total amount of Prestige available worldwide is a telling factor. Each World can have scores of Diamond Guilds collectively producing hundreds of thousands of Prestige. The total Prestige from the one GvG map per World dwindles quickly in comparison divided amongst the GvG competitors.

GvG is the decisive factor but GBG has the most impact on Guild Ranking.

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As noted above, due to the cap of Prestige from Guild Level and GBG, any third factor will be decisive in breaking ties and determining Guild Ranking.

Whatever aspect is chosen, it is quite likely that Guilds that dominate GvG will most likely dominate that aspect as well.

A lot of top notch Guilds spend a lot of treasure and time on GvG, and yet there are no actual rewards.

Except Guild Ranking.

Guilds fight hard for Ranking, this thread demonstrates how important it is to some folk.

If GvG no longer contributes Prestige Guilds will put effort towards whatever does, possibly with a shift in the balance of more personal Reward gained..

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INNO has a proven track record of ever increasing revenue and profit. An important part of INNO's marketing strategy is player immersion - time spent playing. Argue all you want about game design competence, there is no argument over INNO making sound financial choices.

FOE is part of their offering.

GvG has been part of FoE for most of the existence of the game.

INNO Keeps GvG in the game despite the flaws, problems, and clearly stating they have no plans to work on it.

While a small number of players play GvG, the impact on servers is still noticeable despite fewer players and advances in hardware.

There is only one reasonable conclusion from the above, IINNO considers GvG in it's current form an integral part of the profitability of the game despite low play numbers and high impact on servers.

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There has to be some factor breaking the ties in Guild Rank due to capped Level and LP. What factor other then GvG can INNO use that makes any sense given the current status?

Removing Prestige from GvG might be the trigger that ruins GvG. INNO is keeping GvG in game for some reason, ulltimately financial in nature.

Anything that hurts the game financially is bad for the game, that means INNO trying to find other revenue sources.

Is that risk, small as it may be, worth changing how something as meaningless in game as Guild Ranking is calculated? Especailly when ultimately it won;t make a large difference in the standings?

A pretty rickety structure of a little logic and a fair amount of guessing and make believe patchwork and assumptions, but it is the only reason that actually fits all the facts.

It sounded fun when I started... :D
 
Why? What is there to gain besides bragging rights?
O jl o starts every discussion about how high the rankings of her guilds are in her various worlds. ‍[shrug] I know because that was her m.o. in a guild I was once in with her. So kind of funny to see her moving the strategy here. [shrug]
 
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Aonply

New Member
Let me get this straight. Some people actually think a guild that dominates GE and GBG but neglects GvG should be ranked above the teams that do not neglect GvG and to offset their inadequacy they want the teams that show up and play GvG to not count for as much? haha That's a good one.

Almost all the teams that do very well in GBG but stay away from the GvG maps is a choice made by leadership to avoid burning resources in GvG. These teams recruit and or develop a lot of high end players that will hammer out some highly rewarding GBG sectors at any time of the day or night. They cannot show up once a day at the same time for GvG action to increase their rank. So what? This is a strategy many are using to great effect and they are being highly rewarded for it. If your team cannot go take out a better GvG team it doesn't mean the ranking system should be changed for you. It means you need to adjust and rise to meet the challenge of increasing your rank by getting more players to show up to battle in GvG and make it a guild priority.

If you want to use the lame excuses that lazy or non interested players have been using for many years so they don't have to show up at calculation time each day to help their team in GvG such as the classic "I am a phone player" or the sad "I don't have a PC" one then go for it but if that's actually the case then your team does not deserve to be ranked any higher than it is right now. The proof of how lame the excuses are is profoundly shown when one of these poor ranking challenged, dominate GE - GBG teams has 15 players show up in force if some juicy free GBG sectors are available at calculation time with 9 of them on PC's. :confused:

GE is a guild leveling tool and that's what it should remain. Adding GE to the daily rankings is not needed. All the good teams do GE. They might not finish it on day 1 in a tight competition week so they take 2nd but the change in rankings it would offer is basically none so there is no point in adding it to the equation unless the developers want to go in and adjust a bunch of stuff to add it to the daily calculations. At best a few teams would go up a couple ranks for a day or two and go right back down to where they belong.

The ranking system does not need to be changed to reward your GE and GBG accomplishments since both are already more than adequately rewarded.

What's next? A guild welfare system where the well balanced teams must give 20% of their GvG holdings to the lazy, understaffed, poorly led or uninterested guilds? :rolleyes:
 

Reese7990

Member
I think the reverse argument here is that a guild can ignore every other facet of the game (GE, PvP, and GbG) and solely focus on GvG and be a top 5 if not top guild overal. So the prestige ranking is therefore very lopsided. In my server and I'm sure others this is the case. Many of the top 5 guilds struggle to take anything beyond a 4 ring sector in Gbg. Yet for 15 minutes a day they get on, spam auto attacks in Gvg and maintain their top guild ranking. In my opinion this definitely needs reballanced.
 
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Aonply

New Member
I think the reverse argument here is that a guild can ignore every other facet of the game (GE, PvP, and GbG) and solely focus on GvG and be a top 5 if not top guild overal. So the prestige ranking is therefore very lopsided. In my server and I'm sure others this is the case. Many of the top 5 guilds struggle to take anything beyond a 4 ring sector in Gbg. Yet for 15 minutes a day they get on, spam auto attacks in Gvg and maintain their top guild ranking. In my opinion this definitely needs reballanced.
It is balanced. The same negative thing can be said about gbg in terms of spamming out auto battles every 4 hours and then some since gbg introduced an entirely new level of greed in the game. The truth is that those complaining don't fancy gvg since they don't get a bunch of rewards popping up while they are auto battle spamming and they think the gbg map action displays how incredibly strong they are in comparison to some strong gvg team but it doesn't translate onto the gvg battlefield. Teams have built themselves up to play gbg and they have the players that will set timers and gobble up those goodies. If they choose not to engage in gvg then they are ranked exactly where they deserve to be ranked since there are no built in disadvantages for any teams other than what they do or do not do on their own in terms of recruiting and building. GBG only guilds make their own advantage for their particular team by avoiding gvg for whatever reasons such as lack of interest, saving goods for gbg, not enough calc players etc... It's not a flaw in the ranking system. If a guild thinks itself stronger then they should go out there and take the gvg maps from those they feel are weaker teams so they can be ranked higher. If not...keep gobbling up them goodies and stop complaining.
 

-Chen-

Member
In my time on this game I've found there are a few mostly indisputable facts about this topic. First, a VERY, very small percentage (infinitesimal) of people playing this game could give the slightest crap about GvG, and that therefore causes a lot of the GvG crowd to be the "grumpy old men" of the game, always complaining that they can't get more than 2 or 3 people in their guild interested in playing.

Many who are GBG exclusively will always complain about the fact that GvG has an inordinate impact on the rankings, especially considering the ridiculously small amount of interest and participation it draws. And in that sense they are absolutely correct, for me it falls under the "is what it is" category. I personally couldn't care less, all I care is that GBG is by amounts to large to even quantify the best and quickest way for every guild member who's interested to grow their city quickly, and unlock the full possibilities and fun available in playing this game. In the end that's the only thing I personally care about, every member in our guild having the chance to enjoy all the different aspects and elements of the game that I have come to enjoy so much myself. All looking at the rankings ever gets out of me is "meh, that's nice", or "meh, who cares?"

It only takes a couple of people in each guild playing GvG once a day to keep your guild up within the top 15 in rankings. Our guild currently has over 70 members (a few new ones came in yesterday) we have a grand total of TWO players that care about GvG, but from their efforts alone we are currently ranked 9th in Rugnir, and I can't ever recall us falling below 14th. SO, if you really care that much about rankings, you don't need to have much participation to keep your guild in the top 15. There are about 3 or 4 guilds in the top 10 who couldn't get off of their coast in GBG if they tried...but like I said, is what it is. Clearly that is the small bone Inno is going to throw to those whiny but dedicated small fraction of players that like it, in order to try and placate them for not doing anything else for that element of the game.

Oh, and the other thing I've noticed about GvG.... for something that only has such a small group of players that care about it, they have to have at least 80% of the drama, both in and outside their own guilds, lol.
It's amazing the stories I hear about the noise and pettiness involved from that tiny group. I swear, they all must be huge pro wrestling fans and 'reality' show fans...."ghost guilds" created to attack sectors and them blame it on another guild in their alliance, CONSTANT arguing and attempts to back stab each other....to me it's all incredibly amusing....to a point.
Let them have their rankings and all the silly drama that seems to surround that element of the game if that's what turns them on...why even wast a single second caring about it one way or the other??

Mostly I just ignore it completely. I went on the map the other day to help out those couple of members who play it by placing some troops that I didn't need anymore, but that's the most you'll ever see me getting involved, and it's the first time I've clicked on that map in months :)
 

Reese7990

Member
It is balanced. The same negative thing can be said about gbg in terms of spamming out auto battles every 4 hours and then some since gbg introduced an entirely new level of greed in the game. The truth is that those complaining don't fancy gvg since they don't get a bunch of rewards popping up while they are auto battle spamming and they think the gbg map action displays how incredibly strong they are in comparison to some strong gvg team but it doesn't translate onto the gvg battlefield. Teams have built themselves up to play gbg and they have the players that will set timers and gobble up those goodies. If they choose not to engage in gvg then they are ranked exactly where they deserve to be ranked since there are no built in disadvantages for any teams other than what they do or do not do on their own in terms of recruiting and building. GBG only guilds make their own advantage for their particular team by avoiding gvg for whatever reasons such as lack of interest, saving goods for gbg, not enough calc players etc... It's not a flaw in the ranking system. If a guild thinks itself stronger then they should go out there and take the gvg maps from those they feel are weaker teams so they can be ranked higher. If not...keep gobbling up them goodies and stop complaining.
Why wouldn't it be fair for both of these facets to have equal impact on prestige points? Instead of Gvg which is only available on a PC platform therefore eliminating the majority of players even being able to participate being responsible for the lionshare of the rankings? It just doesn't make any sense.

I'm not arguing that Gvg should hold no value, it should, but it's laughable and misleading to label a guild the top guild on the server just because they happen to be have the more active PC players than other guilds.

GBG was introduced as a way to balance this. Rather than reworking Gvg to be available on mobile, but the truth is it doesn't balance it.

I don't mind that GvG also favors player points, to me that is where the Gvg'ers should be rewarded for their efforts. They get more opportunity to farm battles and therefore dominate the player rankings. That's all good to me.

Which guild should be ranked higher?

Guild A: Top 3 in server Battles. Top 3 in guild Player Power Points. Has has only finished below 2nd in Gbg 5 or less times. Has only finished silver in GE twice in its history, the rest gold. Has only 8 or 9 active Gvg players out of 79 members.

Guild B: Not in top 10 is server battles. Not in top 10 in Player power points. Rarely if ever finishes above 3rd in Gbg matches. Has almost as many Silver GE medals as gold and a decent amount of copper finishes. Only has 46 members but happen to have a large amount of those as PC players.

Guild A is ranked 10th. Guild B is 1st. How does this not need reballanced?
 

wolfhoundtoo

Well-Known Member
You fail to mention the other bonuses that GE and GBG give to those that spend their time in those areas: personal rewards. GE gives a bit of both really (if you want to actually see an analysis go back and read this read). GBG gives a ton of personal rewards. GVG however gives boosts to the guild as a whole (again others have gone into this in detail in this thread).
 

Algona

Well-Known Member
Guild B: Not in top 10 is server battles. Not in top 10 in Player power points. Rarely if ever finishes above 3rd in Gbg matches. Has almost as many Silver GE medals as gold and a decent amount of copper finishes. Only has 46 members but happen to have a large amount of those as PC players.
Are there many such Guilds?

You play 6 Worlds. It will only rake you about 30 minutes to do a little digging in all six.

Look at the top 10 Guilds in each of your Worlds. How many are not Diamond and have less then 50% Gold GEC win rate?

Don't bother with MK, I play there and every top 10 Guild is proficient at GE and GBG.

Dunno why you want to emphasize the two easiest cheats in the game RP and Battles for anything meaningful, even something as trivial as Guild Rank. Wait, I do see... Coincidence your Guild in MK is 2 in RP and 3 in Battles?

Think you could possibly set aside your personal agenda when discussing what is reasonable or good for the game?
 

Aonply

New Member
Why wouldn't it be fair for both of these facets to have equal impact on prestige points? Instead of Gvg which is only available on a PC platform therefore eliminating the majority of players even being able to participate being responsible for the lionshare of the rankings? It just doesn't make any sense.

I'm not arguing that Gvg should hold no value, it should, but it's laughable and misleading to label a guild the top guild on the server just because they happen to be have the more active PC players than other guilds.

GBG was introduced as a way to balance this. Rather than reworking Gvg to be available on mobile, but the truth is it doesn't balance it.

I don't mind that GvG also favors player points, to me that is where the Gvg'ers should be rewarded for their efforts. They get more opportunity to farm battles and therefore dominate the player rankings. That's all good to me.

Which guild should be ranked higher?

Guild A: Top 3 in server Battles. Top 3 in guild Player Power Points. Has has only finished below 2nd in Gbg 5 or less times. Has only finished silver in GE twice in its history, the rest gold. Has only 8 or 9 active Gvg players out of 79 members.

Guild B: Not in top 10 is server battles. Not in top 10 in Player power points. Rarely if ever finishes above 3rd in Gbg matches. Has almost as many Silver GE medals as gold and a decent amount of copper finishes. Only has 46 members but happen to have a large amount of those as PC players.

Guild A is ranked 10th. Guild B is 1st. How does this not need reballanced?

I will tell you how this does not need to be rebalanced. The tremendous number of GBG battles since it's deployment have increased personal stats, ranks and rewards to staggering heights and doesn't mean your team is stronger in all areas of the game or stronger overall. In order to be ranked higher team A needs to take more GvG sectors. If they cannot do so as well as team B then team B is overall a better team since they perform well enough in all areas combined to be ranked #1. Period....end of story.

If a guild is tops in battles, player points and top placements in GbG and GE but holds no GvG sectors then they are not deserving of being above the teams that do. It is obvious that team A is underperforming in GvG if they want a higher ranking. Period... end of story.

I don't understand the argument that the system needs changed. If it is so easy for some teams that can dominate GbG like they do to discount what the teams do that hold the GvG maps as unbalanced and not worthy then why not just go out there and take their land instead of trying to get the system rigged for you. You are on the same playing field and have no built in systemic disadvantage. If a team will not focus on being #1 and doing everything which that entails then the team will not be #1 without the system being rigged for them. Period...end of story. Make adjustments and take over the maps if you want this to change for your team. If you cannot make this happen then you can wait and hope the better teams die off so you can take over in their absence. :D
 

Johnny B. Goode

Well-Known Member
I will tell you how this does not need to be rebalanced. The tremendous number of GBG battles since it's deployment have increased personal stats, ranks and rewards to staggering heights and doesn't mean your team is stronger in all areas of the game or stronger overall. In order to be ranked higher team A needs to take more GvG sectors. If they cannot do so as well as team B then team B is overall a better team since they perform well enough in all areas combined to be ranked #1. Period....end of story.

If a guild is tops in battles, player points and top placements in GbG and GE but holds no GvG sectors then they are not deserving of being above the teams that do. It is obvious that team A is underperforming in GvG if they want a higher ranking. Period... end of story.

I don't understand the argument that the system needs changed. If it is so easy for some teams that can dominate GbG like they do to discount what the teams do that hold the GvG maps as unbalanced and not worthy then why not just go out there and take their land instead of trying to get the system rigged for you. You are on the same playing field and have no built in systemic disadvantage. If a team will not focus on being #1 and doing everything which that entails then the team will not be #1 without the system being rigged for them. Period...end of story. Make adjustments and take over the maps if you want this to change for your team. If you cannot make this happen then you can wait and hope the better teams die off so you can take over in their absence. :D
Nice story, but it ignores the fact that the vast majority of players play on mobile and thus have no access to GvG. A game feature available to less than 1/3 of the player base should never be the deciding factor in anything, let alone guild ranking. Honestly I couldn't care less about guild or personal rankings, but anyone who thinks a feature available to less than 1/3 of players and only participated in by 5% of players should be the deciding factor in guild rankings is just being disingenuous. Only GvG players believe that the rankings are fair. Which is understandable, but they're still wrong.
 

Reese7990

Member
Are there many such Guilds?

You play 6 Worlds. It will only rake you about 30 minutes to do a little digging in all six.

Look at the top 10 Guilds in each of your Worlds. How many are not Diamond and have less then 50% Gold GEC win rate?

Don't bother with MK, I play there and every top 10 Guild is proficient at GE and GBG.

Dunno why you want to emphasize the two easiest cheats in the game RP and Battles for anything meaningful, even something as trivial as Guild Rank. Wait, I do see... Coincidence your Guild in MK is 2 in RP and 3 in Battles?

Think you could possibly set aside your personal agenda when discussing what is reasonable or good for the game?
 

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