Proposal - Clear Dead GB from contribution list

Discussion in 'Proposals' started by sethton, May 15, 2018.

  1. sethton

    sethton Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2018
    I have updated the proposal to simply be removing the gb from a players contribution list. I feel it is just to difficult to have a conversation or debate through forums. It seems to often that people are talking about two different things and neither can see the others side of things. Its just not work the time or argument when neither side will ever fully understand. So i hope in correcting my proposal it will get more support in the next week and i can send it to voting with the hopes of it being sent to INNO to think about adding a abort GB option
     
  2. Empress Enaid

    Empress Enaid New Member

    Joined:
    May 14, 2018
    I absolutely agree. If I put fp on a building and that person is no longer playing, give me my fp's back so that I can place them elsewhere.
     
    Salsuero likes this.
  3. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    The moment you pressed the button to DONATE to them, they ceased being "your FPs," you've give them freely and voluntarily to the GB. Whether the player continues playing or quits, you'll never see those FPs again. They are gone for good.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2018
  4. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Since the opinion continues to see these forge points along the lines of charitable donations, I'll approach the issue as such:

    Nonprofit organizations are required to return a donor’s gift if the funds cannot be used according to the donor’s intent or if any significant provisions of a gift agreement are violated. The donor’s intent and/or the gift agreement are a contract governing the relationship between the donor and the organization. Nonprofit organizations are legally bound by such agreements.

    By this standard, I believe we are entitled to a refund of our forge points should the account be removed from the game.
     
    Titris Thrawns and Empress Enaid like this.
  5. KungQu

    KungQu Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    Most people trade forge points on guild threads. Those contributions were repaid when the next person in posting on the thread paid the same amount of points to the great building of your choice. You're essentially out nothing, but the chance at rewards. What about if you donated to a building and it was sniped and you lost out on a reward? Similarly if you contributed speculatively on the chance that you'd get a reward, you're owed nothing because you were gambling in the hope of a reward; not much different than the lottery ticket I purchased today when I bought milk at the corner store. Would these people be happier if these ghost great buildings had been deleted by the account holder before they abandoned the game? At least then they wouldn't have a record of their donations.

    Inno bears no resemblance to a non-profit. The only good they do is for their investors and even their investors are not guaranteed a return.
     
    Graviton likes this.
  6. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    Except what's being described here is more akin to the non-profit going bankrupt. Besides, the FPs are going exactly where they're intended, the GB they're donated to. There is no mechanism where those donations can be misused. There has been no agreement violated as there is no agreement to give.

    The GB owner has no control over who donates to their GBs and the donor has no control over that GB ever being leveled. In fact, the donors have more control over the GB leveling, since a GB owner can't stop it from happening. So level away if you want FPs back.

    BTW - I vote Yes on this proposal. I don't want a thing back, I just want to remove it from the GB list.
     
    Titris Thrawns, Graviton and KungQu like this.
  7. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    According to who? What stat do you have to qualify that statement? I don't use threads. So, none of that applies to me.

    Very much different. When you put FPs on a GB, there are no odds tables that tell you whether your chance of that person quitting or being removed from the game is high... low... insignificant. You know exactly what you're getting into with a lottery ticket. Not so with a GB. What are the odds you'll win a prize? What are the odds you'll be sniped? What are the odds you'll end up getting 1st... or 5th? There are not defined odds, but there are with a lottery ticket. I place FPs on a GP expressly to see the level completed. Anything short of that is an incomplete and unwanted (lack of) use of my FPs.

    Yes, because that's a player doing something. It's an active participation in the game. It's a dick move, sure. But it's a valid player action.

    I don't care about Inno. I was comparing the "donation" to a GB aspect that people like to point to. The GB is my equivalence to a charity if we are donating to them.
     
  8. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    So says you. That's your opinion. Mine is different.

    They aren't being used as intended by the "donor" and that is applicable to my point.

    The agreement is implied that the owner will level the GB at some point (or perhaps never, but absolutely not removed from the game by a bot due to inactivity). Anything short of that has the implied agreement violated.

    So donate to a charity again when the charity is defunct? Yeah, that's totally how it should work. No... if you delete a player from the game, you should return the FPs as the potential use for them is deleted too. Leave them in the game or delete them and refund those FPs. That's my position.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  9. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    I understand your opinion is different, but your analogy still fails.
    Once you donate them, those FPs can only go to their intended use. They are applied to the level. They can go nowhere else, they can be used for nothing else.
    Implied agreement by who, to who? Who are the parties between which there is this 'implied agreement'? Did I ask you to donate to my GB? Did you ask if you could?
    You cannot continue to donate to a GB that has been deleted or a charity that has gone defunct.
    Just like a charity that has gone bankrupt, there is nothing left to recoup your donation from. Hence why your analogy fails. You are correct, there will never be a completed level and your donation is gone for good. If it levels or not, what difference does it make? Those FPs are gone for good.

    So your position is that you're fine with the FPs being lost forever on a GB in a dead city sitting on the server, but should they dare delete it, even for inactivity you want a 'do over'? In that case, you're clinging to a fantasy. That makes no sense.
     
    Graviton likes this.
  10. Graviton

    Graviton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2015
    There is no implied agreement; there is no agreement at all, as Razorback said. You gave away FPs in the hopes of getting rewards back. It was a gift, meaning once the FPs leave your hand you have no say in what happens to them because they're not yours anymore.

    How is it that people can say the goods you produce aren't really yours until you collect them, but the FPs you give away remain yours until the GB levels? Inconsistent logic. Not just inconsistent but bass-ackwards: those goods are yours 'cause you produced them, even if somebody steals them; and those FPs aren't yours after you give them away, even if you never get anything for them.
     
  11. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    In your opinion, yes it does. Not in mine.

    And if the player is deleted, they are not used as intended, which is toward a functioning GB that can potentially be leveled at some point. Once the player is deleted, that potential is removed.

    The implied agreement is that FPs given to a GB are done so toward a level up. Whether or not that ever happens is between the owner and the person giving the FPs (and other parties involved in giving FPs). Once Inno gets involved and removes the owner from the game, that agreement is broken.

    That's not what you suggested... giving to a deleted GB.

    And since that's YOUR analogy and not mine, it would be correct based on YOUR analysis. It's not correct based on mine. You can return those FPs before the account "goes bankrupt" as they do exist to be returned, which is NOT in the case of a charity that goes bankrupt based on no longer having the assets in question. Those FPs still exist. The money for the charity does not. Your analogy fails.

    I am because there's always a chance someone else may level it... or even me if I decide to at some point. They aren't lost... they're only dormant. If Inno removes the account, they are not longer dormant... they are GONE. I say return or leave as-is. It's not a fantasy. You just see it differently.
     
    Titris Thrawns likes this.
  12. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    You don't know why any FPs are given to a GB. It could be in the hopes of getting a reward back. That's certainly true. But that's an assumption. Not every FP given is done to get a reward. As I said, in my explanation, with everyone calling these "donations", that would be done only if the donation is used as intended. You are entitled to your "gift" back if the intended use is not followed. You can claim that they're not mine, as does the law regarding charities... unless the intended use is not followed. Then you are entitled to your "gift" being returned.

    I'm already in possession of the FPs... they come from me. The goods never actually belonged to me until collected. One thing has absolutely nothing to do with the other. The FPs are not yours after you give them away, but you are entitled to them being returned as yours IF they are not used as intended. Removing the account from the game means they aren't being used as intended. It's pretty simple to me. I get that you folks don't agree. But you can't just explain away my points just because you don't agree. I understand fully why you guys think what you do. I'm providing context to why I believe we are actually entitled to a refund. No one else is actually doing that. You don't agree. I know. But mine is an alternative viewpoint that actually has merit, even if you disagree.
     
  13. icarusethan

    icarusethan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2017
    There is a way to collect your FPs before account get deleted, you just choose not to do so. So it’s your choice to lose the points you put on those GBs just like you leave your palaces uncollected and get plundered.
     
    Graviton and RazorbackPirate like this.
  14. RazorbackPirate

    RazorbackPirate Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    You were in possession of the FPs. They came from you. Notice the use of the past tense. That means they are no longer in your possession, they are no longer yours.

    You keep talking about 'used as intended' and this'implied agreement'. Yet by your own words, the FPs in question have met you criteria. "Used toward a level up."
    Then you go on about it being between you and the owner. Again, were you asked to donate? Did you ask if you could? No one's been defrauded here. There's no way someone can stop you from donating to their GB. You can't force an agreement on someone else by doing something they are not a party to. They are not somehow now in an agreement with you because you dropped some FPs on their GB. Your insistence that there's an agreement here, doesn't make it so. That ain't gonna fly in court. Case dismissed.
    If it's not being leveled now, by you or anyone else, it's because it makes no financial sense to do so. To think that at any point someone, somewhere, somehow, or even you at some point, are going to jump on it to throw away FPs to level it is pure fantasy. You know it and I know it. I get defunct GBs leveled when they make financial sense to do so. When they don't make financial sense, I'm realistic enough to know that it's truly dead. Then I want it off my list so I don't have to deal with it anymore. I don't care what Inno does with it after that, because I'm willing to deal with the reality of it and not cling to a fantasy. "Well, maybe they might, someday. You never know, you can't say that for sure."

    There has been plenty of context provided by everyone involved, you just don't like it. That's fine.
     
    Graviton likes this.
  15. Graviton

    Graviton Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 22, 2015
    I don't have to. I know there is no tacit agreement between donor and recipient. Motive is irrelevant.

    Of course those goods are yours! To quote your own reply, "they come from you." The same logic of ownership applies, whether it's goods or FPs: they are yours until they wind up in somebody else's hands, whether they got there by theft or gift is irrelevant. They aren't yours anymore, they're gone.

    Your entire argument is based upon the word "donation", and thereby you invoke a law that is intended to protect people from being scammed. I suppose if you want to sue Inno to get your FPs back, you could probably find a lawyer who would argue that since the word "donation" is used, then you should get them back when an account is deleted.

    But this is not 'real life', you are not donating real dollars (unless you directly purchased those FPs, I guess), and there is no fraud or ill-intent behind the closing of player accounts. Unless you want to charge the individual player with defrauding you by going inactive before levelling his GB. Then, you need to sue him.

    Forget the word 'donation'. Call it whatever you want. Call it a gift. Call it an investment. Call it gambling. Semantics and legalese aside, when you spend FPs on somebody else's GB, those FPs are no longer yours. That is just how it works.
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  16. KungQu

    KungQu Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    I think that INNO should make us whole when someone abandons the game. An INNO bailout is in order; something along the lines of one piece of Alabaster for every ten forge points we "lost". ;)
     
  17. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Collecting FPs by using more of them isn't exactly what I have in mind. Silly suggestion. No thanks.
     
  18. icarusethan

    icarusethan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2017
    So you are saying yes to give up the points you put on. Stop contrarotating yourself then.
     
  19. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    Except they never got used if they were deleted from the game. They cease to exist at that point. Leave them in the game by not removing the player who you gave them to or returning them to the original player who gave them. Simple.

    No. That's your interpretation. The implied agreement is between you and Inno's framework. Nowhere upon giving the forge points does it say you may at some point lose them to the universe at large. You give them and they will be used toward leveling up that GB. If they are left indefinitely, that could happen someday... by you... the owner... or another person who gave FPs. Once the player is removed, that option no longer exists. This is a violation of what was implied upon giving them in the first place. You should be returned those FPs if they aren't going to be used as intended. Period. Full stop.

    No way? They can't disconnect it from the road network? They can't leave levels unlocked? No way at all?

    Again... not between you and the owner. I've made my case. You're not the judge, so you cannot dismiss it. This isn't YOUR court.
     
  20. Salsuero

    Salsuero Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2017
    You are correct. I never said it was between you and the owner. I said there was an implied agreement... I never identified the parties involved.

    What? The goods you haven't collected came from you? I don't get it. They were never yours until you collected them. You don't make sense here.

    I was using a word that others used. In an effort to make a case, that's what I chose to do. No, it's not real life, but many people like to draw comparisons to it to make their case. I have that same right. There is a mechanism to purchase FPs using real money, so that case can actually be made. I never said anything about fraud. I said the FPs were not used according to the original owner's intended use. That's it. It's clear that I'm correct on that one point. Using that point, I've made a case. You disagree. Already noted, already expected. Forget the word donation? That wasn't my word. I explained very clearly that I was making my case based on OTHERS use of that specific word. How about THEY stop using it? Words DO matter.
     

Top