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Public Safety vs. Personal Civil Liberties

DeletedUser34

There are allot of differences between psychiatric facilities and prisons. One being people in psychiatric facilities don't rape and murder each other. Also people in psychiatric facilities are never sentenced to spend life in the facility. As long as they willingly take their medication and seek proper therapy they can be released many months or years before they are suppose to be. Most prisoners don't get better perks than civilians, some white collar prisoners probably do but most do not. If you have ever been to an actual prison you'd know that. There is nothing wrong with tent cities and chain gangs, most prisons have to have tent cities because they are running out of room. Also if you have ever been to a prison you'd know they don't get air conditioning and only non-violent offenders get access to cable tv. Being incarcerated is not a loss of civil liberties, however you do lose some but the loss isn't from being incarcerated the loss is acquired when they willfully gave up those liberties when they decided to commit the crime. The thing about mental illness patients is that most of them want to be proactive about their well being and most of them do take their medication. However more severe mental illnesses make it difficult because they have a tenuous grasp on reality. Your right no one does persecute them, they aren't criminals however your idea of a solution would be to persecute them and that's not right.
One being people in psychiatric facilities don't rape and murder each other. Also people in psychiatric facilities are never sentenced to spend life in the facility. As long as they willingly take their medication and seek proper therapy they can be released many months or years before they are suppose to be.-you do realize you just agreed with my point right?
There is nothing wrong with tent cities and chain gangs - Tell that to the ACLU
but the loss isn't from being incarcerated the loss is acquired when they willfully gave up those liberties when they decided to commit the crime. - And how does this differ from willfull indifference in taking your medication?
they aren't criminals however your idea of a solution would be to persecute them and that's not right. - and yet so many of them are in prison.........

What they didn't feel and were strongly apposed to were sacrificing the rights of the few to protect the whole
I find this hilarious considering it was I believe YOU who posted that Psychiatric Hospitals weren't closed until the 1980's. I know for a fact, people were institutionalized back in the day of our forefathers....try again.

And one more thing...posterity is my children and grandchildren.....Their rights to the constitution outweigh those of criminals and mental disorders.
One thing I should note is you are wrong...an offender? They can't vote...I'd say that is a removal of a civil liberty one specifically given to each American in the Constitution.
 
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DeletedUser34

REALLY!? lmao it's in the T section lmao...how did you miss that?! It even has a reference link to the alumni website where he is listed.

No pun was intended, it was a question. I had him spelled incorrectly...

The reason I asked is because in general I make a habit of looking into the authors and or organizations as it regards to the topic at hand. I also do happen to like wiki for the links it offers as verification for some of their writings. I couldn't find it...no ulterior motives
 
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DeletedUser

One being people in psychiatric facilities don't rape and murder each other. Also people in psychiatric facilities are never sentenced to spend life in the facility. As long as they willingly take their medication and seek proper therapy they can be released many months or years before they are suppose to be
What point is that exactly? ya mean the failed point where ya tried to say prisoners have it better than civilians? Or the failed point where you tried to say people who are insane are housed with regular prisoner? You've muddied the waters so much that I don't think you even know what your point was.

There is nothing wrong with tent cities and chain gangs - Tell that to the ACLU
but the loss isn't from being incarcerated the loss is acquired when they willfully gave up those liberties when they decided to commit the crime. - And how does this differ from willfull indifference in taking your medication?
they aren't criminals however your idea of a solution would be to persecute them and that's not right. - and yet so many of them are in prison.........

The ACLU would strongly appose what you want to do as well so what's your point? It differs from willful indifference because most criminals have a sane state of mind. Also when it comes to most mental illness there is no willful anything because the disease gives them a tenuous grasp on reality. There is your fallacy again! Insane people aren't placed in prisons with other prisoners that statement that so many are in prisons is a lie and has no basis in reality.

I find this hilarious considering it was I believe YOU who posted that Psychiatric Hospitals weren't closed until the 1980's. I know for a fact, people were institutionalized back in the day of our forefathers....try again.
This statement doesn't even make sense. I never said they were closed before the 1980's nor did I say they should have been closed. The first mental hospital was opened in in 1773 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_psychiatric_institutions the bill of rights wasn't created until 1791 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States. After we drafted our bill of rights it inspired Europe in 1793 to take better care of their mentally ill which is in the hospital wiki. In the 18th century we started taking even better care of our mentally ill. So despite your fallacy and illlogic our founding fathers didn't believe it was right to sacrifice the rights of the few for the many. You fail to provide any evidence to the contrary or even make a complete and sound argument for that matter try again...

And one more thing...posterity is my children and grandchildren.....Their rights to the constitution outweigh those of criminals and mental disorders.
One thing I should note is you are wrong...an offender? They can't vote...I'd say that is a removal of a civil liberty one specifically given to each American in the Constitution
From what I've learned from talking to you I wouldn't doubt it if your children if you have any will have a mental disorder. So your saying your children's rights should be taken away and they should be treated like animals because they need medication? How am I wrong? an about what exactly? So far all I've done is prove you wrong. Yes criminals do lose the right to vote, the mentally ill can still vote. Criminals still maintain other rights however. By your logic criminals should rounded up and killed simply because they are criminals.
 

DeletedUser34

What point is that exactly? ya mean the failed point where ya tried to say prisoners have it better than civilians? Or the failed point where you tried to say people who are insane are housed with regular prisoner? You've muddied the waters so much that I don't think you even know what your point was.
you are totally taking what I said out of context.
From what I've learned from talking to you I wouldn't doubt it if your children if you have any will have a mental disorder. So your saying your children's rights should be taken away and they should be treated like animals because they need medication? How am I wrong? an about what exactly? So far all I've done is prove you wrong. Yes criminals do lose the right to vote, the mentally ill can still vote. Criminals still maintain other rights however. By your logic criminals should rounded up and killed simply because they are criminals.
I have said no such thing...and I am done arguing with you. I am not a big fan of arguing instead of discussing. None of what you say is anything about what I was asking about, and/or even thinking. You have totally left the intent of my op, and so I am now adding you to Iggy.
 
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DeletedUser

I'm not trying to be argumentative or insulting. If you feel insulted I apologize. Please what is the correct context? I read every word you wrote twice before thinking about how to respond to it and everything I wrote was in direct response to what was said by you so if I am missing context please tell me what it is. I'm not trying to be argumentative all I've done was respond to arguments and points you made and try to while providing as much evidence as I could why your arguments were flawed and why your points were incorrect. You have lead this conversation the entire time if this topic left its OP's intent it is because you took it there. So don't put this on me all I've done was point out the flaws in arguments you made.

You can call me a popmas ass or anything you want it doesn't change the fact that your points were wrong. No amount of excuses or blaming me for the topic going off track when you've led the discussion the entire time doesn't change that.
 
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DeletedUser3

Your right you can't always trust a blog so here is an actual wikiahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_mental_health_service and here is a published article from a renowned sociologist http://sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas_d.html Both with accurate information. I've so far have provided sources for my information where you have yet to provide any kind of source for yours. You might as well have strung random words together out of nothing so you really haven't corrected because you fail to provide any accurate source for your information.

woops posted the link wrong after wikia, been fixed.
Wikipedia is not a source, it is a warehouse of information, of links to potential sources. Regardless, it is a distraction.

The article you provided from Alexandar Thomas actually affirms my assertions, does not dispute it. Allow me to pose some excerpts from that very same article, which you provided, to affirm every argument I posed. Here we go:

"Growing Discontent

The fight over involuntary commitment during the 1980s was in some ways separate from the Reagan agenda. But it was fortuitous since it coincided with the administration's desire to dismantle the liberal era reforms. However to understand why groups made committment an issue in the 1980s, we have to take a step back and look at reforms that occurred during the 1960s.

During the early 1960s a series of initiatives designed to reform the mental health system were passed. At issue was the system of state run hospitals for the mentally ill, which were increasingly perceived as inhumane and, with the help of new medications, rather unnecessary for large portions of the patient population. In 1961, the Joint Commission on Mental Illness released Action for Mental Health, calling for the integration of the mentally ill into the general public with the aid of Community Mental Health Centers. In 1963, the Mental ation Facilities and Community Mental Health Centers instituted the centers, but due to the financial drain of the Vietnam War during the 1960s and the financial crisis of the 1970s, the program was not fully funded. 1 The result was the release of patients into an environment lacking the Community Mental Health Centers to adequately treat them (Becker and Schulberg, 1976; DeLeonardis and Mauri, 1992; Hollingsworth, 1994; Rachlin, 1974; Rachlin et al, 1975; Saathoff et al, 1992; Shwed, 1978, 1980; Talbott, 1992; Worley and Lowery, 1988; ).
~ http://sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas_d.html

All of this affirms my statement that the breakdown on institutionalization started before Governor Reagan entered into office (1967, years before many of the issues posed above). Now, at this point I must make it abundantly clear that I have no love for Reagan and am not a neo-concervative or Republican. I am not trying to defend him, I'm just pointing out that this blame game is inaccurate. There are plenty of things he did I am not okay with, but it's important not to fall into the trap of blaming him for things that were, for the most part, instituted because of public demand prior to his entry into office, and not merely extreme fiscal policies he later instituted.


"the administration did not, and perhaps could not, act in isolation and without public support. But they didn't have to. By the middle of the 1970s, there was a consensus among interested groups that reform of the Mental Health Care System was necessary. Lobbying on the part of special interest groups and a commitment on the part of President Jimmy Carter led to passage of the Mental Health Systems Act.

With the planned transfer of responsibility for the mentally ill to the states, reformers needed to build coalitions of fiscal conservatives concerned with the cost of social programs; "law and order" Republicans concerned with crime; and those who dealt with the mentally ill who, in the absence of more comprehensive reform, sought more limited alternatives (Becker, 1993). Within this context, statutes and procedures dealing with involuntary commitment of the mentally ill were attractive. Easing standards cost relatively little, allowed the Administration to claim action simultaneously on mental health care policy, crime, and homelessness, and appeased health care providers and families of the mentally ill."
~ http://sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas_d.html

"By the start of the Carter administration in 1977, involuntary commitment had been restricted to those who were deemed as potentially dangerous to themselves or, perhaps more significantly, those around them. 2 Typically, the commitment had to be sponsored by a family member and/or ordered by the court. A result of this policy was that the mentally ill patient who refused treatment typically did not receive any at all. If the patient had lost contact with family members, she or he would not be committed unless found to be a threat by the court. Often, those arrested ended up in jail rather than in treatment if they had not been found to be a threat but had committed a crime (Abramson, 1972; Conrad and Schneider, 1980). One result was a high degree of stress and frustration experienced by the relatives of the patient. Throughout the 1970s, family members organized with the purpose of correcting a policy that they perceived was wrong.

Professional organizations also joined the backlash against the liberal era reforms of commitment regulations. One obvious reason for this is self-interest. When some mentally ill patients do not receive treatment, mental health professionals have lost (or never gained) a potential client. These professionals as a group have much to gain in terms of patients and income if the laws governing involuntary commitment are expanded to include those patients who refuse help but do not pose a serious threat to themselves or the people around them.

Perhaps more important than self-interest is the burden that deinstitutionalization put on mental health practitioners. Time spent in court took away time spent with patients. Moreover, the medical profession saw themselves as being second-guessed by others outside the medical community: lawyers, judges, policy makers, etc. The treatments that psychiatrists and psychologists viewed as necessary for the well being of the patient often could not be applied because of the legal rights of the patient. Involuntary commitment would force those who needed care into the hospitals and force patients to keep appointments and take medication. Without commitment, these things were more difficult for the practitioners (La Fond and Durham, 1992, 112-13).

Critics of Community Mental Health charged that in the rush to shrink the state hospital population, many patients were released prematurely (Robitscher, 1976; Yarvis et al, 1978 ). Some patients went off their medications after being released into the community. The criteria of "dangerousness" for civil commitment also meant that some patients who needed treatment but were not a danger could not be committed. As a result, patients whose behavior was considered odd by the community in which they lived were increasingly arrested for bothersome and minor infractions such as vagrancy. These individuals were thus detained in the criminal justice system rather than the mental health system (Abramson, 1972; Conrad and Schneider, 1980)."
~ http://sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas_d.html

To continue with what was presented above by the article you provided, shortly after Reagan entered into Presidency, he marginalized the 1980 Mental Health Systems Act that was previously placed into effect by President Carter (click here) . This was, in no uncertain terms, unconscionable and it is this and other actions that demonstrate Reagan was a pissant. But, as I stated previously, this was when he became the U.S. President. His actions as a Governor were largely reactive and due to actions imposed by patients rights advocacy groups and the ACLU.

Now, I requested you review the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act, which it is clear you did not. It addresses your arguments regarding Governor Reagan and his policies imposed at that time, effectively disputing your claims. I provide to you an excerpt from the LPS Act:

"5001. The provisions of this part shall be construed to promote the legislative intent as follows:
(a) To end the inappropriate, indefinite, and involuntary commitment of mentally disordered persons, developmentally disabled persons, and persons impaired by chronic alcoholism, and to eliminate legal disabilities;
(b) To provide prompt evaluation and treatment of persons with serious mental disorders or impaired by chronic alcoholism;
(c) To guarantee and protect public safety;
(d) To safeguard individual rights through judicial review;
(e) To provide individualized treatment, supervision, and placement services by a conservatorship program for gravely disabled persons;
(f) To encourage the full use of all existing agencies, professional personnel and public funds to accomplish these
objectives and to prevent duplication of services and unnecessary expenditures;
(g) To protect mentally disordered persons and developmentally disabled persons from criminal acts."
~ Part 1, Chapter 1, General Provisions: The Lanterman-Petris-Short Act (click here)​

The goals were honorable, and they were imposed upon the State of California (through California State Assemblyman Frank Lanterman (R), California State Senator Nicholas C. Petris (D), and California State Senator Alan Short (D)) by public interest groups, patient advocacy and the ACLU, and signed into effect by Governor Reagan. De-institutionalization and patient rights, those were the goals. The intent was to bring patients out of medical warehouses and into care homes, to humanize them.

The result wasn't quite as effective, largely due to the judicial involvement associated with such and that "private" institutions provided no greater assurances for patient care than State or Federal care. The benefit for the government, however, was less lawsuits directed their way. It is disputed whether there was any actual savings. But the point made here was that it was this Act and previous decisions that resulted in the eventual task reassignment of State (and later Federal) mental health hospitals that previously served as warehouses for psych patients. These hospitals were a bad idea from a bygone era that were long overdue for closure.

But, Reagan didn't "close" these facilities outright. This is the false sell that I seem to be having difficulty communicating to you. They were closed because they no longer housed patients, due to patients having obtained "rights" and because the structure of those hospitals were not geared to stabilization for reentry into society, instead serving to house, to incarcerate. The changes imposed, by the LPS Act, in addition to prior decisions and later decisions, made such hospitals obsolete. Unless of course you are arguing that psych patients should be incarcerated, in which case by all means keep fighting the good fight in this debate. Of course, you don't need my participation for that. hehe


So here it is, I yet again corrected your correction. Should we continue this dance or will you let this drop to focus on the topic of this issue?
 

DeletedUser

Wikipedia is not a source, it is a warehouse of information, of links to potential sources. Regardless, it is a distraction.

The article you provided from Alexandar Thomas actually affirms my assertions, does not dispute it. Allow me to pose some excerpts from that very same article, which you provided, to affirm every argument I posed. Here we go:

"Growing Discontent

The fight over involuntary commitment during the 1980s was in some ways separate from the Reagan agenda. But it was fortuitous since it coincided with the administration's desire to dismantle the liberal era reforms. However to understand why groups made committment an issue in the 1980s, we have to take a step back and look at reforms that occurred during the 1960s.

During the early 1960s a series of initiatives designed to reform the mental health system were passed. At issue was the system of state run hospitals for the mentally ill, which were increasingly perceived as inhumane and, with the help of new medications, rather unnecessary for large portions of the patient population. In 1961, the Joint Commission on Mental Illness released Action for Mental Health, calling for the integration of the mentally ill into the general public with the aid of Community Mental Health Centers. In 1963, the Mental ation Facilities and Community Mental Health Centers instituted the centers, but due to the financial drain of the Vietnam War during the 1960s and the financial crisis of the 1970s, the program was not fully funded. 1 The result was the release of patients into an environment lacking the Community Mental Health Centers to adequately treat them (Becker and Schulberg, 1976; DeLeonardis and Mauri, 1992; Hollingsworth, 1994; Rachlin, 1974; Rachlin et al, 1975; Saathoff et al, 1992; Shwed, 1978, 1980; Talbott, 1992; Worley and Lowery, 1988; ).
~ http://sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas_d.html

All of this affirms my statement that the breakdown on institutionalization started before Governor Reagan entered into office (1967, years before many of the issues posed above). Now, at this point I must make it abundantly clear that I have no love for Reagan and am not a neo-concervative or Republican. I am not trying to defend him, I'm just pointing out that this blame game is inaccurate. There are plenty of things he did I am not okay with, but it's important not to fall into the trap of blaming him for things that were, for the most part, instituted because of public demand prior to his entry into office, and not merely extreme fiscal policies he later instituted.


"the administration did not, and perhaps could not, act in isolation and without public support. But they didn't have to. By the middle of the 1970s, there was a consensus among interested groups that reform of the Mental Health Care System was necessary. Lobbying on the part of special interest groups and a commitment on the part of President Jimmy Carter led to passage of the Mental Health Systems Act.

With the planned transfer of responsibility for the mentally ill to the states, reformers needed to build coalitions of fiscal conservatives concerned with the cost of social programs; "law and order" Republicans concerned with crime; and those who dealt with the mentally ill who, in the absence of more comprehensive reform, sought more limited alternatives (Becker, 1993). Within this context, statutes and procedures dealing with involuntary commitment of the mentally ill were attractive. Easing standards cost relatively little, allowed the Administration to claim action simultaneously on mental health care policy, crime, and homelessness, and appeased health care providers and families of the mentally ill."
~ http://sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas_d.html

"By the start of the Carter administration in 1977, involuntary commitment had been restricted to those who were deemed as potentially dangerous to themselves or, perhaps more significantly, those around them. 2 Typically, the commitment had to be sponsored by a family member and/or ordered by the court. A result of this policy was that the mentally ill patient who refused treatment typically did not receive any at all. If the patient had lost contact with family members, she or he would not be committed unless found to be a threat by the court. Often, those arrested ended up in jail rather than in treatment if they had not been found to be a threat but had committed a crime (Abramson, 1972; Conrad and Schneider, 1980). One result was a high degree of stress and frustration experienced by the relatives of the patient. Throughout the 1970s, family members organized with the purpose of correcting a policy that they perceived was wrong.

Professional organizations also joined the backlash against the liberal era reforms of commitment regulations. One obvious reason for this is self-interest. When some mentally ill patients do not receive treatment, mental health professionals have lost (or never gained) a potential client. These professionals as a group have much to gain in terms of patients and income if the laws governing involuntary commitment are expanded to include those patients who refuse help but do not pose a serious threat to themselves or the people around them.

Perhaps more important than self-interest is the burden that deinstitutionalization put on mental health practitioners. Time spent in court took away time spent with patients. Moreover, the medical profession saw themselves as being second-guessed by others outside the medical community: lawyers, judges, policy makers, etc. The treatments that psychiatrists and psychologists viewed as necessary for the well being of the patient often could not be applied because of the legal rights of the patient. Involuntary commitment would force those who needed care into the hospitals and force patients to keep appointments and take medication. Without commitment, these things were more difficult for the practitioners (La Fond and Durham, 1992, 112-13).

Critics of Community Mental Health charged that in the rush to shrink the state hospital population, many patients were released prematurely (Robitscher, 1976; Yarvis et al, 1978 ). Some patients went off their medications after being released into the community. The criteria of "dangerousness" for civil commitment also meant that some patients who needed treatment but were not a danger could not be committed. As a result, patients whose behavior was considered odd by the community in which they lived were increasingly arrested for bothersome and minor infractions such as vagrancy. These individuals were thus detained in the criminal justice system rather than the mental health system (Abramson, 1972; Conrad and Schneider, 1980)."
~ http://sociology.org/content/vol003.004/thomas_d.html

To continue with what was presented above by the article you provided, shortly after Reagan entered into Presidency, he marginalized the 1980 Mental Health Systems Act that was previously placed into effect by President Carter (click here) . This was, in no uncertain terms, unconscionable and it is this and other actions that demonstrate Reagan was a pissant. But, as I stated previously, this was when he became the U.S. President. His actions as a Governor were largely reactive and due to actions imposed by patients rights advocacy groups and the ACLU.

Now, I requested you review the Lanterman-Petris-Short Act, which it is clear you did not. It addresses your arguments regarding Governor Reagan and his policies imposed at that time, effectively disputing your claims. I provide to you an excerpt from the LPS Act:

"5001. The provisions of this part shall be construed to promote the legislative intent as follows:
(a) To end the inappropriate, indefinite, and involuntary commitment of mentally disordered persons, developmentally disabled persons, and persons impaired by chronic alcoholism, and to eliminate legal disabilities;
(b) To provide prompt evaluation and treatment of persons with serious mental disorders or impaired by chronic alcoholism;
(c) To guarantee and protect public safety;
(d) To safeguard individual rights through judicial review;
(e) To provide individualized treatment, supervision, and placement services by a conservatorship program for gravely disabled persons;
(f) To encourage the full use of all existing agencies, professional personnel and public funds to accomplish these
objectives and to prevent duplication of services and unnecessary expenditures;
(g) To protect mentally disordered persons and developmentally disabled persons from criminal acts."
~ Part 1, Chapter 1, General Provisions: The Lanterman-Petris-Short Act (click here)​

The goals were honorable, and they were imposed upon the State of California (through California State Assemblyman Frank Lanterman (R), California State Senator Nicholas C. Petris (D), and California State Senator Alan Short (D)) by public interest groups, patient advocacy and the ACLU, and signed into effect by Governor Reagan. De-institutionalization and patient rights, those were the goals. The intent was to bring patients out of medical warehouses and into care homes, to humanize them.

The result wasn't quite as effective, largely due to the judicial involvement associated with such and that "private" institutions provided no greater assurances for patient care than State or Federal care. The benefit for the government, however, was less lawsuits directed their way. It is disputed whether there was any actual savings. But the point made here was that it was this Act and previous decisions that resulted in the eventual task reassignment of State (and later Federal) mental health hospitals that previously served as warehouses for psych patients. These hospitals were a bad idea from a bygone era that were long overdue for closure.

But, Reagan didn't "close" these facilities outright. This is the false sell that I seem to be having difficulty communicating to you. They were closed because they no longer housed patients, due to patients having obtained "rights" and because the structure of those hospitals were not geared to stabilization for reentry into society, instead serving to house, to incarcerate. The changes imposed, by the LPS Act, in addition to prior decisions and later decisions, made such hospitals obsolete. Unless of course you are arguing that psych patients should be incarcerated, in which case by all means keep fighting the good fight in this debate. Of course, you don't need my participation for that. hehe


So here it is, I yet again corrected your correction. Should we continue this dance or will you let this drop to focus on the topic of this issue?

First I need you to know that I have nothing but respect for you and I read every single word ya posted. However your breaking your own rules and me having to take the time to correct you is making me break the rules. Reagan has little to nothing to do with the topic and your continuous false corrections only serve to take the topic further off track and muddy the water. That being said I agree with almost everything you said in the above quoted text. What I don't agree with is your first statement
The article you provided from Alexandar Thomas actually affirms my assertions, does not dispute it. Allow me to pose some excerpts from that very same article, which you provided, to affirm every argument I posed. Here we go:
This is incorrect because this was your actual OP and first non-correction

Hi, just wanted to correct this. The Republicans, while holding Congress and the White House (Reagan), closed all Federal mental health hospitals. This was based on a Supreme court ruling, I can't recall which, that made it clear providing care for State citizens was the responsibility of the States (it was largely instituted due to the abuse posed at the Federal facilities). As such, while the Federal facilities were closed, the States were required to cover the slack. While some States didn't bother, even though they are mandated, most States stepped up and instituted mental health facilities at the State and County levels, including programs for care housing, etc. While not the perfect system, at least the mental health persons do receive treatment and are stabilized before being released (they are not allowed to be released until such is the case, which means they can be held for a very long time).

The problem is, non-compliance. Most drugs associated with care of mental disorders have some rather nasty side-effects and persons who are on those drugs don't "recall" anything odd about their behavior prior to the medication (or other treatments), so don't see the point. In response to this, some facilities began a program of videotaping the patients prior to treatment so they could show the patients how they are when not taking their meds. This program has been marginally successful, but not successful enough to warrant the expense and potential liability issues.

As to mental health patients on the streets, that is more due to a change in laws pertaining to mental health (Baxter being one of them) that prevents a person from being institutionalized if they do not exhibit DS, DO, or CS (mentioned earlier). That, in my opinion, is a good thing although I do agree the backlash to this is that there are more mentally disordered persons sleeping in shelters or under causeways. However, this display is misrepresented because there are far more people living in the streets who are not mentally disordered. That has more to do with with the escalating disparity in wealth that, for all effective purposes, started during the Reagan era.


I'l leave the rest for debate.

No where in your original post do you talk about Reagan when he was governor or how the problem started before Reagan. In fact if you read the words you first wrote nothing you talked about at all is even covered in the article I posted not a supreme court ruling, no mention of abuse at the federal level. Please if you can find a single "fact" in your original non-correction that exists in the article I posted please show it to me because I am obviously missing it.

To continue with what was presented above by the article you provided, shortly after Reagan entered into Presidency, he marginalized the 1980 Mental Health Systems Act that was previously placed into effect by President Carter (click here) . This was, in no uncertain terms, unconscionable and it is this and other actions that demonstrate Reagan was a pissant. But, as I stated previously, this was when he became the U.S. President. His actions as a Governor were largely reactive and due to actions imposed by patients rights advocacy groups and the ACLU.
The goals were honorable, and they were imposed upon the State of California (through California State Assemblyman Frank Lanterman (R), California State Senator Nicholas C. Petris (D), and California State Senator Alan Short (D)) by public interest groups, patient advocacy and the ACLU, and signed into effect by Governor Reagan. De-institutionalization and patient rights, those were the goals. The intent was to bring patients out of medical warehouses and into care homes, to humanize them.
His actions may have been reactive, and it may not have been his fault but he still closed them down when he was governor. So my previous statement which you tried to correct is still true. You even admit that it was signed into effect by governor Reagan.

You can argue all day the reasons why Reagan closed them, I'm not going to argue that with you. The simple fact is it was Reagans signature both as governor and president that ultimately lead to the closing of those facilities which is proven in the article I posted. The article which I posted also neither verifies nor supports any information you claimed in your original post. My point your constant non corrections were both false and unneeded and I have provided all the information to prove that statement true regardless of how you try to twist that evidence to your favor.
 
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DeletedUser

Look allow me to help you all (just cuz I am a people person). There is no problem that money can not solve. It is just that democrats and liberals do not know how to do it.

Example: We did not want the riff raff lower and middle classes to come to our beach. Nobody wants to see their pale, overweight bodies in a swimsuit. Nobody wants to watch them drink cheap beer strait from a can. Nobody wants to listen to their poor taste in music. Nobody wants to see there uncontrollable children run wild.

The simple and obvious answer was for the village to pass an ordnance that only people who lived in the town could use the beach. It seemed simple enough and problem solved. The little people were not happy and took it to court. To make matters worse, it ended up with a very liberal judge. So in his great wisdom, he made what was so simple, very complicated. He noted that while the village may own the sand and the beach. It does not own the great lake that it connects to. So the village could not bar other people from swimming in it. Once again our civil liberties were outdone by the masses and their elected officials.

Round 2: The village needed a work around. Well it was stated that we own the beach but not the great lake. A visitor pass will be required for all those who do not reside in the village. This one day pass can be had for a mere $1,500.... The problem was again solved by a very simple solution. The little people challenged this and lost. Since the village had voted for and passed "home rule" they were in their rights to set such a rule, and the fee for the pass.

Prisons, tent towns, institutions, call them what you want. They do not need to work. Stop debating on what is good for them or others. Who cares? It is what is good for you. If you buy up some farmland some place, toss up a few buildings, send them all there. Out of sight, out of mind, problem solved right? In the end money determines who has rights, and the extent of those rights. Should we not be exploiting those facts? It would work for liberty, clean needles, and everything you deem worthy of a debate. Think about it ;) If money can not buy happiness... THEN RENT IT!!!!
 

DeletedUser3

However your breaking your own rules and me having to take the time to correct you is making me break the rules.
Hehe, nice try but this particular side issue is still relevant to the main topic, as it is an example of just what this topic is about and poses a degree of irony in that those who advocated for more rights actually subjected a subset of citizens to less privileges, which essentially amounted to more freedom and greater representation, but less individual rights and less community-provided services.

Examining the dynamics of mental health care and the history associated bring ample insight into the topic at hand, posing a demonstration of how good intent oftentimes has bad results. I.e., on topic.

Reagan has little to nothing to do with the topic and your continuous false corrections only serve to take the topic further off track and muddy the water.
Considering you brought Reagan into the debate, I find it interesting how you're essentially saying you went off topic and should be punished. Hmm, perhaps this particular request should be addressed by Dominotx, hehe.

On a serious note, let us keep any further questioning about moderating (mine or others) to PMs. It is not appropriate to publicly debate forum rule enforcement and is clearly off topic.

No where in your original post do you talk about Reagan when he was governor or how the problem started before Reagan.
I addressed it in my next post, which was in response to your attempted correction of my post. Also while I did not specifically discuss it, the mere fact I omitted such was intentionally to serve as an inference. Indeed, you caught onto that inference with your rebutting post, so let's refrain from examining debate play-by-play, as it is an unnecessary (and likely intentional) distraction from the facts presented that dispute your initial assertions and that of the blogger.

And yes, it is just as inappropriate to blame Reagan for the closure of State hospitals in the 1970's as it would be to blame Bush Jr. for 9/11. Things were already in effect, already in place, already happening before they came into office. What happened does not make it their fault, but what they each did in the respective aftermaths are indeed their faults.

However, the greater picture, and the picture I was attempting to contribute to the debate, was that the changes in law, as it pertains to mental health disorders, and the subsequent aftermath of many mental health patients becoming essentially homeless, was a direct result of "good intent" from mental patient advocates, and not "bad intent" by fiscal conservacraps. Oh sure, when Reagan became President, some "bad intent" definitely got in the mix, but it was his exploiting the gaping holes posed by implementation of substandard policies and acts initiated on "good intent." Rules to provide protections that ultimately left mental health patients without rights (conservatorships), without reasonable care, and an imposition on the community by posing greater risk.

In other words, PRECISELY what this whole debate is about.
 

DeletedUser

Quote Originally Posted by Nicklesbe View Post
However your breaking your own rules and me having to take the time to correct you is making me break the rules.
Hehe, nice try but this particular side issue is still relevant to the main topic, as it is an example of just what this topic is about and poses a degree of irony in that those who advocated for more rights actually subjected a subset of citizens to less privileges, which essentially amounted to more freedom and greater representation, but less individual rights and less community-provided services.

Examining the dynamics of mental health care and the history associated bring ample insight into the topic at hand, posing a demonstration of how good intent oftentimes has bad results. I.e., on topic.

Reagan has little to nothing to do with the topic and your continuous false corrections only serve to take the topic further off track and muddy the water.
Considering you brought Reagan into the debate, I find it interesting how you're essentially saying you went off topic and should be punished. Hmm, perhaps this particular request should be addressed by Dominotx, hehe.

On a serious note, let us keep any further questioning about moderating (mine or others) to PMs. It is not appropriate to public debate forum rule enforcement and is clearly off topic.

Thank you! I must apologies, I was being a tad facetious. I knew very well that it still pertained to the topic at hand, and I am well aware that I opened the door to Reagan. This was a point I tried and failed to make when Dominotx kept claiming the discussion had gone off track, and since Dominotx has "Iggy"'ed me the best way to get that point across is if you made it. So thanks for that, sincerely.

I addressed it in my next post, which was in response to your attempted correction of my post. Also while I did not specifically discuss it, the mere fact I ommitted such was intentionally to serve as an inference. Indeed, you caught onto that inference with your rebutting post, so let's refrain from examining debate play-by-play, as it is an unnecessary (and likely intentional) distraction from the facts presented that dispute your initial assertions and that of the blogger.

And yes, it is just as inappropriate to blame Reagan for the closure of State hospitals in the 1970's as it would be to blame Bush Jr. for 9/11. Things were already in effect, already in place, already happening before they came into office. What happened does not make it their fault, but what they each did in their respective aftermaths are indeed their faults.

However, the greater picture, and the picture I was attempting to contribute to the debate, was that the changes in law, as it pertains to mental health disorders, and the subsequent aftermath of many mental health patients becoming essentially homeless, was a direct result of "good intent" from mental patient advocates, and not "bad intent" by fiscal conservacraps. Oh sure, when Reagan became President, some "bad intent" definitely got in the mix, but it was his exploiting the gaping holes posed by implementation of substandard policies and acts initiated on "good intent." Rules to provide protections that ultimately left mental health patients without rights (conservatorships) and without care.

In other words, PRECISELY what this whole debate is about.

You are absolutely right, well not about the intentional but definitely unnecessary distraction. Your second post was completely correct, and I do not nor did I dispute it. Yes your first post absolutely I dispute it but that's already been dealt with. I wouldn't describe it as exactly inappropriate because there is no telling what may have or may not have happened if bush jr. had read the briefings he was given and took them seriously. Just as much as there is no way to tell what may have happened had Reagan not signed the bills he signed. It's complete speculation, if you feel speculation is inappropriate then yes it is inappropriate.

I admit it is WRONG to say Reagan is solely responsible for the facilities closing. However as you said which I agree with is that he is responsible for what happened in the aftermath.

FINALLY the point I was hoping for has finally come to a head. I couldn't agree more with that picture. I think that is a very accurate description of events and it's precisely the kind of example of history that we NEED to learn from. That's why I adamantly appose anything like a "forced medication" plan because it possibly could fall for the same pitfalls. I say that because there will always be special advocacy and special interest groups pressuring the president for policy or change in policy and there will always be opportunity for greed and exploitation. So it's never a good idea to put peoples rights on the line because no matter how much good intent there is it's just not worth the risk.
 
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DeletedUser3

his was a point I tried and failed to make when Dominotx kept claiming the discussion had gone off track, and since Dominotx has "Iggy"'ed me the best way to get that point across is if you made it. So thanks for that, sincerely.
Omg, I feel so... used.

Just as much as there is no way to tell what may have happened had Reagan not signed the bills he signed. It's complete speculation, if you feel speculation is inappropriate then yes it is inappropriate.
Considering the California Assembly & Senate votes on that bill were almost unanimous the bill would have been pushed through and enacted had Reagan vetoed it. So, in this particular case, his participation as a signer was irrelevant. It is also important to point out that "mental health" was considered differently than it is now. Many experts then believed institutionalization was a great contributor to mental illness (some even considered the causation), that socialization and interaction in the community was a normalcy factor necessary for mental health. As such, it is unlikely Reagan would not have signed it in, not with the majority of experts holding to such opinions, and not with previous laws, instituted Federally and within the State of California, proved insufficient to address the issue. ~ http://www.desertpacific.mirecc.va.gov/news/lps-reform.shtml#history

In some respects, what happened then mimics some of the motivations regarding removal of rights during the Bush era. A series of presumptions and expert opinions that were, frankly, wrong.


Enjoy the debate. :)
 

DeletedUser

They (the government in the US especially where I'm from) LOVE when some kind of national tragedy happens. The ultimate goal of the government, bankers, the rich, the people at the top of the proverbial food chain of human existence is to slowly take away the liberties of anyone who isn't wealthy and "upper class". Its funny how they call themselves upper class when they are the lowest form of life.

They make the decisions that affect our lives.. Alcohol and cigarettes are legal but pot isn't? What kind of joke is that?

One day they are going to take away one privilege too many and are going to get a backlash from it that they won't be able to come back from.

We don't even get a variety to choose from when picking the leaders of countries. We get a bunch of egotistical clowns who are full of themselves.

We are a world of slaves to the people who run it all. We have to take what they dish out and there is nothing we can do about it. They make all the decisions for us. We are puppets at the end of a string.

You know what they should change the beginning of the Constitution to? "We the Punchline"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wV1lZMTCqf8
 
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