Refining the "Aid" Algorithm

[lemur]

Proposal

Introduce a new setting that provides players with a short list of choices for the mixture of motivation and polishing that the "Aid" algorithm applies to their villages.

Current System

After special buildings have been motivated, the "Aid" algorithm randomly chooses motivation or polishing — with equal probability — regardless of whether that is best for players or the game itself.

Details

The "Aid" button has been an unmitigated disaster for the design aspect of Forge of Empires, ever since it was introduced three years ago (December 3, 2014). The Aid algorithm uselessly polishes small decorations with the same priority that it motivates production buildings. In this way, the Aid algorithm essentially penalizes players for using small decorations. The nearly universal response of players to this penalty has been to purge their villages of small decorations — most often turning the layout into something resembling a retail warehouse, with row upon monotonous row of identical production buildings.

Why bother creating quality artwork if the game process then discourages players from creative design? It is as though the Programming Department at InnoGames does not communicate with the Art Department. We routinely see the absurd spectacle of InnoGames giving small decorations as prizes — such as the Nutcracker that was given to every player in December 2017 as a Christmas present — while still penalizing players for actually placing such decorations in their villages. Surely the artistic designers would rather not see their work languishing in player inventories like piles of junk mail.

The solution I propose is elegant and simple.

Leave the basic operation of the algorithm intact. Do not change the list of buildings that receive special priority. Do not change the age hierarchy that the algorithm uses. Continue the random nature of the algorithm — denying players the ability to target specific buildings for assistance.

But make one small programming change. Allow players to adjust the ratio that the algorithm uses between motivation and polishing. The default setting would be what is currently used for everyone — 50% motivation and 50% polishing. I would suggest adding these options:

100% motivation
67% motivation and 33% polishing
33% motivation and 67% polishing
100% polishing

When items in a particular category are exhausted, the algorithm would operate as it does now — continuing to choose from whatever remains. For example, if a player were to choose 100% motivation, and all production buildings were already motivated, then the algorithm would start choosing items to polish.

Abuse Prevention

I foresee no possibility for abuse.

Visual Aids

Here is an example of what often happens with the current system. The Aid algorithm repeatedly hammered small decorations, while a dozen critical supply production buildings went unmotivated.



Note the striking difference between these sample villages — with plenty of small decorations — that InnoGames uses to market their game ...



... and this typical village with most small decorations removed.



Attention Walmart shoppers! There is a sale on Ziggurats in aisle five.

Conclusion

One of the fundamental strengths of Forge of Empires has always been the diversity of ways that it can be played by players with different intentions. This proposal is about no longer penalizing those of us who value the artwork and value village design.
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[DeletedUser31882]

I'd vote yes.

More player options for strategy control? Yay!

Less guilt over my 1x1 Halloween Deco eating 2 aids a day? Yay!

Now if you excuse me, I have to get to Aisle 5.

 

[DeletedUser31206]

I dislike having to say this, but I believe if you look at the don't propose list you'll find this type of proposal on it.
Do not suggest list

• Building rotation
• Server Clock
• Bronze Age, Arctic Future, or Oceanic Future in GvG
• Any Unit Upgrades
• Anything that is already available through Diamond purchase
• Anything changing the production times for supplies, coin, units, etc.
• Changes regarding Diamonds (costs of items and features, package prices, use of diamonds, etc.).
• Suggestions to change size of Forge Point Bar (100+)
• Trading between resources (supplies for coin, coin for medals, etc.)
• Any proposal to alter, delete, or limit plundering
• Additional expansions in any way
• Ability to prioritize which buildings in your city you want aided first
• Do not place a proposal up for voting of any kind.

 

[DeletedUser32389]

Not only is it on the DNS list, but it’s missing a crucial point that I personally have brought up a few times. Decorations are a crutch, plain and simple. You want to play house? You want to make a “Pretty” decorated city? Get ready for the inefficiency! 1x1 decos are (mostly) cheap and take zero skill to lay out. That’s what defines a crutch; maybe you need a little extra support, but it’s not a solution in the long run. You’re proposing to reward players for what amounts to mediocre city layout, and poor strategy. Great big NO

My city, spot the 1x1 deco (there is one) Not a homogenous layout. 13k extra happiness when full AID

 

[Freshmeboy]

Lemur is making a proposal that slips by the side of the DSNL by asking for the change to the motivation/polish aspect of the game not the buildings themselves....BTW, Lemur, excellent topics these last two proposals..Kudos. Many proposals so far have asked for some way for the decos to come into play with free land expansions, areas around the city with land designated for decos, etc. Lemur is right, decos take a back seat as soon as you build a Hag and probably as soon as the Delphi is built and leveled a bit. While many are true artwork, I never need them and build them only for quests. I can see the possibilities here for many players who would willingly sacrifice space for a beautifully designed city. Players not interested in decos simply place leave the slider alone and those that want a park can place it on motivate. New players will gain the most as many friends quit in the beginning and they need those decos for enthusiasm...I want to hear more.....

 

[DeletedUser]

While I appreciate the work Lemur put into this proposal, not to mention his marvelously snarky comment about the Ziggurat farm, I have to vote no. For me it comes back to the idea of choices. For every city building strategy there are pluses and minuses. There is no way to program a game where every strategy has no drawbacks, in fact that wouldn't be much of a game, now would it? Also, I don't think this would be as simple a programming job as one might imagine.

 

[DeletedUser31206]

I for one would like the aid button done away with all together, but since I got a feeling that the reason why it was added a few years ago was because a proposal was sent to them asking for the aid button I rather doubt that the developers will get rid of it, but I sure wish that whoever wrote the proposal, the players that voted yes, and the developers who agreed that the aid button was a good idea would have thought about what a headache it would be. I had to get rid of all but a few of my cultural buildings and decorations were my production and residential buildings would get motivated (which is what I prefer). I don't use the aid button. I use the motivation button unless either someone has asked for something to be polished or the polish button is my only choice. As for my vote if the Monitors think that because of the way he phrased the proposal it isn't on the don't list my vote is no for I got a feeling that the polish buildings would still get polished more often than the motivation buildings would get motivated.

 

[Salsuero]

You’re proposing to reward players for what amounts to mediocre city layout,

I have to disagree with this point. My town is in no way laid out in a mediocre fashion, but I would love to have a few "pretty" decos more than I do just because a major component of this game for me is the visual aspect. I like the "challenge" of making my town look pleasant to my eyes. However, I also don't and wouldn't go as crazy with them as lemur has, so I don't worry about aid in the way he has to. I just don't like that your insinuation is that using decos implies a poor design skillset.

I for one would like the aid button done away with all together

If you did that, my Seed Vault would become pretty useless... I'm not going into 300+ towns and aiding manually. The only reason I built the Seed Vault was because I do massive aid runs every day.

 

[DeletedUser31206]

I have to disagree with this point. My town is in no way laid out in a mediocre fashion, but I would love to have a few "pretty" decos more than I do just because a major component of this game for me is the visual aspect. I like the "challenge" of making my town look pleasant to my eyes. However, I also don't and wouldn't go as crazy with them as lemur has, so I don't worry about aid in the way he has to. I just don't like that your insinuation is that using decos implies a poor design skillset.



If you did that, my Seed Vault would become pretty useless... I'm not going into 300+ towns and aiding manually. The only reason I built the Seed Vault was because I do massive aid runs every day.

Wow you've got 300+ friends and neighbors.

 

[Salsuero]

Wow you've got 300+ friends and neighbors.

Don't forget guildmates! But no, I don't at the moment. I was speaking more long-term since I'm not only here for the right now. I currently have roughly 200-ish off all three combined. But if I maxed out my friends list and we maxed out our guild membership, that would be more than 300. My statement still applies to the 200+ that I have now though.

 

[lemur]

I would love to have a few "pretty" decos more than I do just because a major component of this game for me is the visual aspect. I like the "challenge" of making my town look pleasant to my eyes.

Yes, I think it's fun to design and maintain a village that looks like it could be real. When I first started the game, I asked myself, "Is this an aerial view of a place where I would want to live?"

However, I also don't and wouldn't go as crazy with them as lemur has ...

Well, "crazy" is a value judgment, and I disagree. Any player who uses small decorations is penalized by the "Aid" algorithm. Due to the 50/50 split between motivation and polishing, a significant penalty (of wasted assistance) is incurred with a relatively small number of decorations. A graph of the penalty would look like an inverted exponential curve — rising quickly at first, and then rolling over toward a horizontal asymptote, as each additional decoration has less effect on the penalty. Note that the dysfunction in the Event History above (included with my proposal) needed only about 30 decorations, spread thin through a large village, to cause mayhem. Doubling the number to 60 would have little effect on that outcome.

Some players (like you) use a skillful strategy to neutralize the penalty. Others suffer the consequences and wish that InnoGames would stop penalizing their legitimate playing style for no good reason.
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[lemur]

I don't think this would be as simple a programming job as one might imagine.

I think it would be a lot less work than creating (and awarding!) all of those wasted small decorations. Furthermore, it would be greatly appreciated by many players, thereby adding value to the game.

There is no way to program a game where every strategy has no drawbacks, in fact that wouldn't be much of a game, now would it?

My proposal is about eliminating all drawbacks? That is clearly a straw man, not a fair summary of what I wrote.

For me it comes back to the idea of choices. For every city building strategy there are pluses and minuses.

Yes, choices. My argument starts with a premise — that the diversity of ways that Forge of Empires can be played has long been one of its great strengths. Do you disagree with that premise? Are you saying that Forge of Empires "wouldn't be much of a game" unless the programmers were to continue putting their thumb on the scale and heavily favoring certain styles of play? I doubt that's what you meant, but some readers might wonder.

If you agree with my premise about diversity being a strength, then I don't see how you can reasonably argue against my proposal. My argument is that refining the "Aid" algorithm would benefit the game by restoring a level playing field for a playing style (with design focus) that is entirely legitimate — as clearly indicated by the long history of InnoGames promoting small decorations and using them in their marketing to this very day!

The current structure of the "Aid" algorithm damages the game by penalizing a style of play that pays attention to design. It also damages the credibility of the developers when they promote the use of small decorations and then penalize those who use them.
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[lemur]

Now if you excuse me, I have to get to Aisle 5.

If you stick to Aisle 2, then I'll be wishing you well. .
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[DeletedUser31206]

Don't forget guildmates! But no, I don't at the moment. I was speaking more long-term since I'm not only here for the right now. I currently have roughly 200-ish off all three combined. But if I maxed out my friends list and we maxed out our guild membership, that would be more than 300. My statement still applies to the 200+ that I have now though.

Still impressive numbers, but unless you've got a button that the rest of us don't that allows you to take care of all of them at once and not have to go to each one and decide whether you're going to press the aid, motivation, or polish button you're still having to go to them so why not just choose the motivation button it really doesn't take that long. I first see if they have any special buildings like the Hall of Fame, the Shrine of Knowledge, ect. If they don't then I look for any production buildings of the era that they're in. If I can't find any or there's none with stars then I look for residential buildings of the age that they're in. If there's none then I go to the age before the one they're in. It takes no more than 30 seconds to do and that way you know that you've helped your fellow guild mate, friend, or neighbor with a building that he/she most likely wants help with. The aid button no matter what anyone says is one a lazy button and two most of the time it chooses to polish (which almost nobody really needs done) instead of motivation.

 

[DeletedUser]

My proposal is about eliminating all drawbacks? That is clearly a straw man, not a fair summary of what I wrote.

Not a straw man at all. Your proposal is about eliminating a drawback in your playing style. There are numerous other proposals that have been put forth that fit the same description, even though they may be about widely varying areas of the game. You say it adds value to the game, but what you really should have said is that it would add value to your game. I am opposed to pretty much any proposal that is designed solely to eliminate a drawback to a specific playing style, rather than improving the game as a whole.

Yes, choices. My argument starts with a premise — that the diversity of ways that Forge of Empires can be played has long been one of its great strengths. Do you disagree with that premise? Are you saying that Forge of Empires "wouldn't be much of a game" unless the programmers were to continue putting their thumb on the scale and heavily favoring certain styles of play?

You pulled this out of thin air. Certainly not from anything I said. You are the one that is saying Inno favors certain styles of play, not me, so don't be putting words in my mouth that are easier for you to argue with than what I actually say.

I doubt that's what you meant, but some readers might wonder.

Only the ones that you can easily lead astray with your verbal attempts at sleight of hand.

If you agree with my premise about diversity being a strength, then I don't see how you can reasonably argue against my proposal. My argument is that refining the "Aid" algorithm would benefit the game by restoring a level playing field for a playing style (with design focus) that is entirely legitimate — as clearly indicated by the long history of InnoGames promoting small decorations and using them in their marketing to this very day!

I never said it wasn't a legitimate playing style. I do disagree with your implication that there is not now a "level playing field" as far as aid goes. You say the algorithm is set at a 50/50 split between motivation and polish, how much more even can it get?

The current structure of the "Aid" algorithm damages the game by penalizing a style of play that pays attention to design. It also damages the credibility of the developers when they promote the use of small decorations and then penalize those who use them.

Again, your wording is wrong. It doesn't damage the game. And it doesn't penalize you, you penalize yourself by choosing a playing style that you know is not going to be optimal with the current game mechanics. Which brings me back to the point about proposals that are not about improving the game, but instead about eliminating drawbacks to specific styles of play. If every proposal of that sort were implemented, this wouldn't be a game anymore, it would be a bunch of people essentially twiddling their thumbs on the internet.

 

[DeletedUser]

It takes no more than 30 seconds to do and that way you know that you've helped your fellow guild mate, friend, or neighbor with a building that he/she most likely wants help with.

Say you have 50 guild mates, 50 friends and 75 neighbors. 175 total. 30 seconds each. 87.5 minutes total. An hour and a half. No thanks, I'll use the aid button.

 

[Salsuero]

Well, "crazy" is a value judgment, and I disagree.

You disagree that I wouldn't go "as crazy" as you? What does it matter my adjectives? My point was clear. I wouldn't use as many as you. Ugh.

 

[Salsuero]

unless you've got a button that the rest of us don't that allows you to take care of all of them at once and not have to go to each one and decide whether you're going to press the aid, motivation, or polish button you're still having to go to them so why not just choose the motivation button it really doesn't take that long.

What game are you playing? It takes MUCH longer to load a city than it does to click the aid button. Then scrolling around their towns to find something to aid isn't "instant" either. You're kidding, right?

The aid button no matter what anyone says is one a lazy button and two most of the time it chooses to polish (which almost nobody really needs done) instead of motivation.

You know what's lazy? Not clicking it at all. Don't troll me with this crap. Get rid of your decos and cultural buildings if you don't want polishing. Done.

 

[lemur]

Not a straw man at all. Your proposal is about eliminating a drawback in your playing style.

Yes, your criticism was a straw man — because you claimed that I was advocating for "no drawbacks" at all, rather than a particular systemic problem with implications for the whole game, including InnoGames contradicting itself. Calling it a "drawback" is like calling a baseball team with only seven players a "drawback". The severe penalty for using small decorations radically changed the game — regardless of whether you choose to acknowledge that plain fact. What you characterize as a "drawback" was actually a deal killer for the overwhelming majority of players. As I already stated in the proposal,

The nearly universal response of players to this penalty has been to purge their villages of small decorations.​

You say it adds value to the game, but what you really should have said is that it would add value to your game. I am opposed to pretty much any proposal that is designed solely to eliminate a drawback to a specific playing style, rather than improving the game as a whole.

In my last comment, I asked whether you disagreed with the premise that the diversity of ways that Forge of Empires can be played has long been one of its great strengths. I'll take this latest comment by you as a reply of "yes" to that question. You oppose eliminating barriers to a specific playing style — even if that leads InnoGames to contradict its own marketing. You're entitled to your opinion.

I do disagree with your implication that there is not now a "level playing field" as far as aid goes.

Well, that's really obtuse. Look around. Very few villages have more than a handful of small decorations. We can't have much of a discussion if you won't acknowledge obvious facts.
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[Salsuero]

Very few villages have more than a handful of small decorations.

What do you mean by "very few" -- I see an absurd amount of towns with "excess" decos. I see it all the time. Those towns are very poorly designed, but they do exist in massive numbers.