Rogues need to be limited

[DeletedUser29295]

I don't view plundering as stealing, at all. I used to get very upset when someone plundered me, my stuff missing!

Then I convinced myself it's unearned production, I lose nothing. And since then I've viewed it from that lens and it's helped me not have any compunctions about plundering someone. It's true - they really don't lose anything. It's unearned production.

And they are more than free to hit me back and take something too. That's the remedy. There's no remedy for market greed.

If plundering (taxing as I call it) is stealing, then I am a thief almost as great as Ali Baba.

I have attacked and taxed my hood since day 1. Meaning I used spearmen against spearmen to wipe out and tax them of thier goods/supplies. I get some interesting mails from people in my hood (and I save the best of them), and I just don't care. I don't care that people wish to cry out against a stronger army attacking a weaker one. Then going through the hood until I find what I want to take from them. It is all part of the game. I totally agree: if I do it to them, they have every right to do it to me. It is not my fault they advanced too fast for the age they are in. Not my fault I have a Guild that will help me and not them. And not my fault that someone wants to whine about the power of the Rogue.

If you don't like the Rogue, SJS, then don't use it. Refuse to use it, if you feel so strongly against how it works right now. But I will not, and I doubt you will either. I agree with Dursland 100%.

 

[DeletedUser26965]

If you don't like the Rogue, SJS, then don't use it. Refuse to use it, if you feel so strongly against how it works right now.

I do like em and use them. Me liking them or not really wouldn't have anything to do with it anyway. It's about taking a larger view beyond oneself and examining the game dynamics as a whole. There's essentially two types of forum posters, those who only consider how things effect them and those who consider the game and player base as a whole. My views on the city defense AI especially relative to the 1/7 Rogue tactic fall within the latter.

 

[DeletedUser24787]

so joe the platform your taking on this is the city defense not the rogue itself what if we had a 3rd GB that helped out with city defense to increase those values? If there were to be a update to our city AI would it not also be fair to update the AI in GE ? city AI and GE are just as "brilliant" as they mirror each other in tactics

 

[DeletedUser26965]

so joe the platform your taking on this is the city defense not the rogue itself what if we had a 3rd GB that helped out with city defense to increase those values? If there were to be a update to our city AI would it not also be fair to update the AI in GE ? city AI and GE are just as "brilliant" as they mirror each other in tactics

That's why I've been asking throughout this post on what folks think the breaking point, as I call it, is to defend against a 1/7 Rogue tactic i.e. how much defensive value bonus does it take to at least begin to make it more difficult on the attacker. So yes you could add another defensive GB like SbC and DC, or give more variability to city AI to not always hit Rogues first, whatever gets the job done I'm fine with. Clearly you don't want to make it too difficult to successfully attack a city but as it is now it's too easy and that aint good either, for both the attacker and the attacked. GE is a completely different dynamic I'm not looking to combine with this concern.

Thing is to it's difficult to account for everything as we are working with limited data, we don't know how many successful attacks on cities there are versus how many unsuccessful, with data like that only Inno can consider if any of this would negatively effect their bottom line. My feeling and guess it would help thier bottom line in the long run to bring a little more balance to the early game regarding all of this. And really if it does not work out in the end they could always readjust, why be afraid to experiment.

 

[DeletedUser24787]

some winable structures or updates to some old ones would be nice to increase the defenders attack boost just not the defensive end. Doubt they will add a 3rd GB that adds attack power to defenders , but a revamp of tiger dens or some new building vs the very POPULAR add happiness to everything. City defense stats do need to be worked on ,beyond the only two GB we have as options. Would be interesting to see them added to the game at least in my opinion as far as rogues go leave my premium unit alone no rework needed I benefit greatly from them

 

[DeletedUser13838]

nonsense. It's about game theory, design and balance.

Please explain how game theory has anything to do with this.

 

[DeletedUser29530]

My argument would be that it completely defeats the purpose of the "rock-paper-scissors" mechanic of choosing units to fight, since you're essentially going in with just 1 type of unit, besides rogues (which turn into that unit). Maybe if they limited it to 4 rogues per fight, it'd still make sense to build different team compositions against different opponents.

Also, it defeats the purpose of all other special units (champions, flag bearers, color guards, drummers), since rogues are automatically better to use.

I'd also like to see other special units buffed. Maybe add special actions to some of the units, if they do not make an attack. Like maybe drummers, if they don't attack, add stacking 1 armor. Color guards, if they don't attack, add stacking 12% attack/defense. If they don't attack several rounds, the bonus really adds up. Or at least change it so that they multiply 12% of the final number instead of add, so if you have +100% attack/defense, instead of your units being at 210% total power, they are at 224%.

As it is, nobody will use special unit buildings, other than rogues.

 

[DeletedUser]

My argument would be that it completely defeats the purpose of the "rock-paper-scissors" mechanic of choosing units to fight, since you're essentially going in with just 1 type of unit, besides rogues (which turn into that unit). Maybe if they limited it to 4 rogues per fight, it'd still make sense to build different team compositions against different opponents.

Also, it defeats the purpose of all other special units (champions, flag bearers, color guards, drummers), since rogues are automatically better to use.

I'd also like to see other special units buffed. Maybe add special actions to some of the units, if they do not make an attack. Like maybe drummers, if they don't attack, add stacking 1 armor. Color guards, if they don't attack, add stacking 12% attack/defense. If they don't attack several rounds, the bonus really adds up. Or at least change it so that they multiply 12% of the final number instead of add, so if you have +100% attack/defense, instead of your units being at 210% total power, they are at 224%.

As it is, nobody will use special unit buildings, other than rogues.

Rogues definitely do not defeat the purpose of Champions, as they are the only unit capable of being combined with a high defense boost and staving off a 1/7 Rogue attack.
Rogues also do not defeat the purpose of color guards and drummers (there is no such thing as a flag bearer), because they have little purpose above Iron Age anyway.
Also, the Drummer School already adds 4% attack, on top of the bonus from the unit itself.

 

[Algona]

As it is, nobody will use special unit buildings, other than rogues.

Aside from Champions. They've served me quite well through the Ages. It's always nice to have access to troops the day you enter a new Age. Once you hit the higher Eras they are quite good. I'm running nothing but Champs and AA in Contemporary so far.

The other two are not completely horrible in the first 3 or so Ages.

 

[DeletedUser13838]

Aside from Champions. They've served me quite well through the Ages. It's always nice to have access to troops the day you enter a new Age. Once you hit the higher Eras they are quite good. I'm running nothing but Champs and AA in Contemporary so far.

The other two are not completely horrible in the first 3 or so Ages.

Once you hit FE and get access to hover tanks you may never use champions again.

 

[DeletedUser29530]

Rogues definitely do not defeat the purpose of Champions, as they are the only unit capable of being combined with a high defense boost and staving off a 1/7 Rogue attack.
Rogues also do not defeat the purpose of color guards and drummers (there is no such thing as a flag bearer), because they have little purpose above Iron Age anyway.
Also, the Drummer School already adds 4% attack, on top of the bonus from the unit itself.

I should be more specific: I'm talking about attacking, only. Since you don't actually lose units when defending, you can get plenty of unattached champions through the GE. Out of curiosity, when you say champions are good for defending, do you mean just 1, or are there stats good enough to have your whole army made of them?

The drummer school bonus is nice, especially since attack is much harder to get than defense (all those watchfires). I still would never put a drummer or color guard in my army.

 

[DeletedUser]

Out of curiosity, when you say champions are good for defending, do you mean just 1, or are there stats good enough to have your whole army made of them?

I'm in CE, with high (21/305) defense boosts, and I use 8 Champions. I was using 4 Champions and 4 Assault Tanks (for the Reactive Armor), but the Champs are definitely better.

 

[DeletedUser13838]

IMO champions aren't good for defending. First of all they are worth double the battle points. If you're interested in placing in the tower then giving your rivals double points is a no no. Second, in the earlier ages when champions are fast units they are not good units. In the later ages when champs are heavy units the normal heavy units generally have better bonus skills (at least by TE/FE). Once you get to CE and can build strike team centers you'll have no need for drummer schools.

 

[DeletedUser]

IMO champions aren't good for defending. First of all they are worth double the battle points. If you're interested in placing in the tower then giving your rivals double points is a no no. Second, in the earlier ages when champions are fast units they are not good units. In the later ages when champs are heavy units the normal heavy units generally have better bonus skills (at least by TE/FE). Once you get to CE and can build strike team centers you'll have no need for drummer schools.

As I noted above, I used to use 4 Assault Tanks (heavy) with 4 Champs, mostly because of the Reactive Armor. However, that defense was breached, so I switched to all Champs, and have not been successfully attacked since.

 

[DeletedUser13838]

As I noted above, I used to use 4 Assault Tanks (heavy) with 4 Champs, mostly because of the Reactive Armor. However, that defense was breached, so I switched to all Champs, and have not been successfully attacked since.

I think CE is one the tweener era as the best attack unit is the AAV but the artillery unit is lousy. I suppose missile artillery can work ok against rogues since they affect multiple units but it can never win a battle since they're 1-shot items.

Still, I think double points is a good enough reason not to use them as defense. If you're not being successfully attacked I'd suggest the reason isn't because you're using champions.

 

[DeletedUser25166]

Drummer school uses no population, good to waste on NPC seizes as siege army.

 

[DeletedUser]

Still, I think double points is a good enough reason not to use them as defense. If you're not being successfully attacked I'd suggest the reason isn't because you're using champions.

Based on...? The actual evidence is that I was successfully attacked before I switched to all Champions, I have not been since. What is your evidence? I also run up against those types of lineups in both PvP and GE, and I can tell you from the offensive side of it that I would rather see 8 Assault Tanks than 8 Champions. Less points, maybe, but fewer losses and more successful attacks. Again, what is your evidence? You can suggest all you want. That and a couple of bucks might get you a cup of coffee.

 

[Algona]

Once you hit FE and get access to hover tanks you may never use champions again.

Thanks for the advice! I may never get there, though. I plan to be in CE a long time.

Still, I think double points is a good enough reason not to use them as defense

Boss, if you're still worried about Tower points in the Epoch of Arc Spamming you are doing something seriously wrong.

 

[DeletedUser]

Still, I think double points is a good enough reason not to use them as defense.

They don't get the double points unless they beat them, which they haven't.

 

[DeletedUser13838]

Strike teams are useful units in GE.

Boss, if you're still worried about Tower points in the Epoch of Arc Spamming you are doing something seriously wrong.

if only my guild mates were leveling their arcs. In any event I'm not referring to the later ages as champs just hold up. But how many players in CE have enough medals to never worry about winning the towers?