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Rulebreakers Allowed

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
I have a legitimate question and I'm not trying to troll Inno. But... why do people who systemically break the rules not get treated equally? I have sent tickets to support with proof, not just guessing, but proof from the players themselves that they are cheating using push accounts and sharing their passwords with guildmates when they quit the game. The response I get is a form letter "thank you" and "we'll look into it". But weeks later, the players are still using the push accounts and the password sharers are still dumping FPs to benefit guildmates. I am wondering why we are supposed to follow the rules when even direct evidence from the rulebreaker isn't enough to shut them down.

And yes, I'm aware that "snitches get stitches". I don't like playing a game where people cheat to gain an advantage over me. If you think I'm snitching... I'm fine with that.
 

DeletedUser27023

I dealt with the same thing with people who have multiple accounts in the same world. Inno does not care. Reported multiple times and nothing is ever done. In fact, the players don’t even try and hide it anymore lol.
 

Algona

Well-Known Member
I've never understood why cheaters are allowed either.

I am happy that this game is for the most part impervious to seriously malicious and detrimental effects from cheaters. My philosophy and understanding of this game is that except for GvG a cheating player has no effect on me. I play the game against INNO, I'm striving to have the best city I can build. As long as the majority of players are not cheating, good play answers anything cheaters can do to interfere with my city and my game play.

Cheat all you want. as much as you can, you ain't good enough to bother my city or play. I recognize the fact that if you feel a need to cheat in this game then you know that the only way you can compete with good players is to cheat. Enjoy being a second rate player and beating up on ignorant and new players, cheater.

Except GvG. There's enough complexity and opportunity there to give cheaters a decisive advantage. And even there, good team play will win out. NOTE WELL! I am NOT saying top Guilds cheat. As far as I can tell the Guilds I've interacted with don't espouse cheating.

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see cheaters booted. Hard. But it doesn't hurt me that INNOlets them hang around. Maybe INNO feels feels pity for them and let's them play?

EDUTL qaccy's following posr covers soemthing I had not even thought about. Great point about new wolds.
 
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qaccy

Well-Known Member
Push accounts don't have huge Arcs. Compare what push accounts can achieve compared to what an Arc can achieve. Kind of puts the 'cheating' regarding using push accounts to level GBs in perspective a bit, at least in my book.

However, in situations where the Arc isn't a factor, such as the two recently-opened servers here in the US, push accounts could certainly have a short-term effect. A year from now? Still going to be the Arc doing all the heavy lifting. Push accounts don't really have much impact in the long-term, at least not how most of them are typically used.

That being said, cheating is cheating and it's unfortunate that it does seem like nothing's really done about it anymore.
 

Robbenn

New Member
Push accounts don't have huge Arcs. Compare what push accounts can achieve compared to what an Arc can achieve. Kind of puts the 'cheating' regarding using push accounts to level GBs in perspective a bit, at least in my book.

However, in situations where the Arc isn't a factor, such as the two recently-opened servers here in the US, push accounts could certainly have a short-term effect. A year from now? Still going to be the Arc doing all the heavy lifting. Push accounts don't really have much impact in the long-term, at least not how most of them are typically used.

That being said, cheating is cheating and it's unfortunate that it does seem like nothing's really done about it anymore.
Except having a big arc is not against the rules and actually requires quite a bit of work and time and strategy and a big investment. Not to mention it helps low level players too.
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
My philosophy and understanding of this game is that except for GvG a cheating player has no effect on me.
What about push accounts dumping a bunch of FPs on a GB at an abnormal cost-to-reward ratio simply because they don't care about the reward, only the benefit to the GB, costing other players rewards by knocking them down a position? It's not how I play, because I am more of a snipe to locked position player... but it pisses me off to see other players getting repeatedly robbed in this way.

It's also unfair that push accounts can donate all their goods to a treasury because they don't need them, allowing guilds to artificially gain an edge in unlocking GE levels, which helps them complete more encounters, which can cause you to lose a weekly GE tournament. Hypothetical because I would never know the individual players in competition against us if not from the same world... but 100% possible abuse.

Or how about the fact that leveling up their military GBs faster using push accounts means they gain an edge over their attack/defense GBs... which affects PvP against them and/or you?

Oh and... leveling up the attack GBs as well as unfair trading of goods from a push account to a main account (particularly in the case of a push account in the same age or one below the main account) means those players may be able to do more in GE than if they wouldn't, which can also affect tournament outcomes.

It's not just you against Inno. These players are cheating. Period.
 
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Salsuero

Well-Known Member
Except having a big arc is not against the rules and actually requires quite a bit of work and time and strategy and a big investment. Not to mention it helps low level players too.
And some of the cheaters are doing so to level their Arcs and others faster. It affects legal Arc play too.
 

Algona

Well-Known Member
What about push accounts dumping a bunch of FPs on a GB at an abnormal cost-to-reward ratio simply because they don't care about the reward, only the benefit to the GB, costing other players rewards by knocking them down a position? It's not how I play, because I am more of a snipe to locked position player... but it pisses me off to see other players getting repeatedly robbed in this way.

It's also unfair that push accounts can donate all their goods to a treasury because they don't need them, allowing guilds to artificially gain an edge in unlocking GE levels, which helps them complete more encounters, which can cause you to lose a weekly GE tournament. Hypothetical because I would never know the individual players in competition against us if not from the same world... but 100% possible abuse.

Or how about the fact that leveling up their military GBs faster using push accounts means they gain an edge over their attack/defense GBs... which affects PvP against them and/or you?

Oh and... leveling up the attack GBs as well as unfair trading of goods from a push account to a main account (particularly in the case of a push account in the same age or one below the main account) means those players may be able to do more in GE than if they wouldn't, which can also affect tournament outcomes.

It's not just you against Inno. These players are cheating. Period.
Boss, you got me wrong. I clearly state I want the cheaters our of the game.

All your points are valid and may be concerns for others, but they don't affect me; I've resolved them. As you quoted, I explicitly say my philosophy and understanding, I don't address other's perspectives. I won't bother going through toyr points individually, my point stands: Ain't jack a cheater can do to hurt me.

I understand that others may have significant problems dealing with cheaters, but they are all solvable or can be ignored. Except the GvG asprct, I'll figure that one out if/when GvG becomes important to me and my Guild again.

So instead of getting in my grill asking about obvious problems I've taken care of long since, why not ask how I address the problems you have? You might learn something.

I'll give you a hint: Once you understand that this game (excepting good old GvG) is a contest between you and INNO everything else becomes a lot easier to identify, understand, and resolve.
 
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Salsuero

Well-Known Member
Boss, you got me wrong. I clearly state I want the cheaters our of the game.

All your points are valid and may be concerns for others, but they don't affect me; I've resolved them. As you quoted, I explicitly say my philosophy and understanding, I don't address other's perspectives. I won't bother going through toyr points individually, my point stands: Ain't jack a cheater can do to hurt me.

I understand that others may have significant problems dealing with cheaters, but they are all solvable or can be ignored. Except the GvG asprct, I'll figure that one out if/when GvG becomes important to me and my Guild again.

So instead of getting in my grill asking about obvious problems I've taken care of long since, why not ask how I address the problems you have? You might learn something.

I'll give you a hint: Once you understand that this game (excepting good old GvG) is a contest between you and INNO everything else becomes a lot easier to identify, understand, and resolve.
Fair enough. Other than your first point, I respectfully agree to disagree. In my humble opinion, ignoring cheaters isn't an option, and is hardly a solution.
 

DeletedUser14354

What about push accounts dumping a bunch of FPs on a GB at an abnormal cost-to-reward ratio simply because they don't care about the reward, only the benefit to the GB, costing other players rewards by knocking them down a position?
I don't think you can assume that someone is using a push account simply because they seem to be overpaying for rewards. People do stupid things.


As for the rest of your post, I don't really understand the argument unless your definition of a "pusher account" is different than the generally accepted definition. When I think pusher account, I think of an account that does nothing but harvest FPs using the 24 hour clock. It wouldn't have goods to donate, and the amount of FPs would be minimal relative to the amounts needed to impact GB rewards or really level up military GBs to levels that actually make a difference. I also can't imagine anything but the smallest guilds at the lowest levels really being impacted by the goods requirement for GE. Once you get guildmembers with Observatories, that more than covers the GE goods needs. Once they get Arcs, the issue goes away entirely. And with guildmates trading them the goods on favorable terms, we have all seen Arcs in really low age cities, e.g., HMA cities.

That said, you indicated you had actual proof in the form of something from the alleged cheater. You sent it to Inno. They historically ignore this stuff, and every now and then do a mass adjustment where they wipe out the accounts they identify. Other than reporting them, there is nothing you can do. Algona's advice is sound, ignore it. Its impact on you is minimal.
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
I don't think you can assume that someone is using a push account simply because they seem to be overpaying for rewards. People do stupid things.
Can I assume much when we have a conversation about it and they say that's exactly what they're doing? My reply wasn't to emphasize the what if nature of who, but the result of what.

As for the rest of your post, I don't really understand the argument unless your definition of a "pusher account" is different than the generally accepted definition. When I think pusher account, I think of an account that does nothing but harvest FPs using the 24 hour clock.
Semantics. You can play this game if you'd like. You know what I mean. Accounts that "act" like push accounts, but have goods buildings. Please provide another term if you are unable to get past my use of "push accounts" to cover more than one type of player.

It wouldn't have goods to donate, and the amount of FPs would be minimal relative to the amounts needed to impact GB rewards or really level up military GBs to levels that actually make a difference. I also can't imagine anything but the smallest guilds at the lowest levels really being impacted by the goods requirement for GE. Once you get guildmembers with Observatories, that more than covers the GE goods needs. Once they get Arcs, the issue goes away entirely. And with guildmates trading them the goods on favorable terms, we have all seen Arcs in really low age cities, e.g., HMA cities.
So your opinion is that it doesn't matter if people cheat because it's a minimal impact... or not many people doing it? My question was about those who do, not how many do... or if they are significant annoyances. Rules are rules.

That said, you indicated you had actual proof in the form of something from the alleged cheater. You sent it to Inno. They historically ignore this stuff, and every now and then do a mass adjustment where they wipe out the accounts they identify.
Yes, proof in the form of a 100% admission of guilt, not in a way that sounded "iffy" but in a very definite "yes, I'm doing that" way. They did not indicate in their responses that they "ignore this stuff" but rather that they would "investigate" and take "appropriate action if necessary". That is what my question is all about. Nothing done... doesn't seem appropriate when rules are clearly being broken. This is a case where Inno deflects in order to get us off their ticket stack. I just wanted to have an open discussion about why this is something that is allowed to persist. People pay money to play here. Why should rulebreakers be allowed to do their thing in the face of that? This isn't a philosophical question. This is a very real one.


Other than reporting them, there is nothing you can do.
Actually, there is something I can do... which I know has happened. You will of course call me a liar because you doubt it's a "real" problem. But I can quit. Others have. I don't want to quit, but cheating isn't something I'm going to just tolerate. You think it's unimportant. It clearly doesn't matter to you. It does to me. And I believe it does to others. This is not good company policy. If you have fairness rules in place, everyone should be expected to follow them equally. No exceptions. I don't know why I have to actually say that.

Algona's advice is sound, ignore it. Its impact on you is minimal.
That's not sound advice. That's just advice. The impact is minimal because you think it is. I'm not in agreement.
 

DeletedUser31440

Buy some diamonds, amount doesn't matter, sue Inno for not enforcing Terms of Use and giving some cheaters an advantage.
 

DeletedUser14354

Salsuero,

Its clear to me that you are new to the game. In another year, you are going to look back on these issues you have raised with some additional perspective, and you will hopefully laugh at how quickly you flew off the handle for what are, worst case, minor annoyances.

I wish you luck.
 

DeletedUser14354

Actually, there is something I can do... which I know has happened. You will of course call me a liar because you doubt it's a "real" problem. But I can quit. Others have. I don't want to quit, but cheating isn't something I'm going to just tolerate. You think it's unimportant. It clearly doesn't matter to you. It does to me. And I believe it does to others. This is not good company policy. If you have fairness rules in place, everyone should be expected to follow them equally. No exceptions. I don't know why I have to actually say that.
FYI, what you are describing is a corporate policy that you believe INNO should be following. I happen to agree with that policy, but its aspirational.

My statement was that, other than reporting them, there is nothing you can do. You are correct, you can also quit...
 

Algona

Well-Known Member
Fair enough. .
Uh-huh. One of the advantages if years perusing these Forums is perspective...

I have sent tickets to support with proof, not just guessing, but proof from the players themselves that they are cheating
Reported multiple times and nothing is ever done.
This ain;t the first time this has been brought up. I've read dozens of posts like the above about unanswered and unresponded to reports to INNO. I 've reported cheaters to INNO myself. No bueno.

Kvebting about it INNO's inaction is fine. Usless, much like the mice kvetching about the cat, but fine.

Go back and read your posts in this thread.

ignoring cheaters isn't an option, and is hardly a solution.
Reread your posts? Do you offer a solution? No? Then why the hell are tou giving me guff? Never said I ignore cheaters...

I respectfully agree to disagree
Ain;t rightly sure what we disagree on. We both want cheaters gone. Cheaters don't affect me, they affecr tou. What is ir we disagree on?
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
Salsuero,

Its clear to me that you are new to the game. In another year, you are going to look back on these issues you have raised with some additional perspective, and you will hopefully laugh at how quickly you flew off the handle for what are, worst case, minor annoyances.

I wish you luck.
What does new to the game mean to you? You may not be familiar with my ethics and how they impact me. That's probably a better assumption.
 

DeletedUser14354

What does new to the game mean to you? You may not be familiar with my ethics and how they impact me. That's probably a better assumption.
New as in lacking perspective...not the first person to tell you that in the last 5 minutes.
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
I understand that others may have significant problems dealing with cheaters, but they are all solvable or can be ignored.
Reread your posts? Do you offer a solution? No? Then why the hell are tou giving me guff? Never said I ignore cheaters...
I didn't offer a solution. You appeared to. That was what I referred to. Your quote suggested that ignoring cheaters was an option. I disagreed. Which leads me to:

Ain;t rightly sure what we disagree on. We both want cheaters gone. Cheaters don't affect me, they affecr tou. What is ir we disagree on?
I said I disagreed with you other than you believing cheaters should be dealt with. Most of what you said wasn't something I was in agreement with... for the most part, that it doesn't affect you -- I believe it does, but that you just don't care, which isn't necessarily how others feel -- and that it's only a GvG issue. I also disagreed with your statement that they can all be solved or ignored (other than the GvG-related ones as you mentioned).

It's not that I don't appreciate that you agree with me that cheaters should be dealt with, but you imply (maybe unintentionally) that they can just be ignored... maybe not in all cases, but in any case... in my opinion... cheaters cannot be ignored. Is this a "me problem" -- perhaps -- but there are rules and I am objectively wondering why they aren't enforced. I'm not debating the validity of the rules or whether one can survive despite cheating.
 

Salsuero

Well-Known Member
New as in lacking perspective...not the first person to tell you that in the last 5 minutes.
Thanks for your opinion. I have plenty of perspective. It just doesn't line up with yours. Not sure you can lecture me on that, but I appreciate that you have a difference of opinion and perspective. It doesn't excuse cheating, nor does it minimize its significance to those who care enough to be bothered by it and the lack of respect for those who play by the stated rules, some of which pay to be here. I've only spent about $40 on this game... and that was pretty early on. But I don't know that the amount really matters. $1 or $1,000... I don't appreciate cheating. If it affected you directly in a major way, you'd be upset. It doesn't, so you aren't. I don't see the relevance of "impact" on my point.
 

DeletedUser14354

Thanks for your opinion. I have plenty of perspective. It just doesn't line up with yours. Not sure you can lecture me on that, but I appreciate that you have a difference of opinion and perspective. It doesn't excuse cheating, nor does it minimize its significance to those who care enough to be bothered by it and the lack of respect for those who play by the stated rules, some of which pay to be here. I've only spent about $40 on this game... and that was pretty early on. But I don't know that the amount really matters. $1 or $1,000... I don't appreciate cheating. If it affected you directly in a major way, you'd be upset. It doesn't, so you aren't. I don't see the relevance of "impact" on my point.
Algona indicated to you that Inno isn't likely to do anything, and since the impact on you is minimal, its not worth getting upset about. I simply suggested that this was good advice.

And, no, you absolutely don't have any real perspective on this issue. Perspective is the ability to step outside your own personal situation and see the bigger picture.

Anyone that has been here long enough would know:

1. That this issue has been raised numerous times in the past:
https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/pushing-account.10475/
https://forum.us.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/multiple-accounts.858/
https://forum.en.forgeofempires.com...on-your-definition-of-pushing-accounts.30006/
https://forum.en.forgeofempires.com/index.php?threads/push-accounts.31078/

In each case, someone asked/complained about push accounts, and INNO's lack of action. If you hadn't joined the forums 4 weeks ago, you would have seen these.

2. INNO sets the rules. They can choose to enforce them as they see fit. Whether I like or don't like cheating is largely irrelevant, as I can't force INNO to enforce its rules. I can either choose to accept that it goes on, or I can quit. I accept those as my only two options.

You clearly see a third, which is to scream pointlessly into your keyboard.