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Shooting a wheelchaired amputee

DeletedUser3

Well this was quite disturbing. Today two police officers entered a mental health facility and one of them shot a
wheelchair-bound amputee in the head. The man had one arm, one leg. The police officer's claim is that the amputee trapped his partner in a corner and was threatening him with an object. The officer said he ordered the amputee to show him what was in his hands and he didn't comply, so he put a bullet in the patient's head, killing him instantly.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/09/23/us/texas-amputee-shooting/index.html

There is so much incredibly wrong with this scene, but I would like to hear your thoughts.
 

DeletedUser

Wheelchair-bound. Double amputee. Mentally ill.

That's quite an overwhelming situation to be up against, even for a grown man. Being trapped in the corner by a wheelchair gets pretty intense. I don't see why the police officer shouldn't have shot the guy. Plus, he was threatening the other officer with a pen, which is justification enough on its own.
 
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DeletedUser34

They should have zapped him, not shoot him.

edit:
Considering this is the second time he has done this, the first time was 3 years ago, I'd say there is a problem.....
 
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DeletedUser

If a police officer believes another officer's life is threatened, deadly force is appropriate. The mistake here was in getting into this situation in the first place. There's got to be more on the front end of this story than I'm seeing...officers don't routinely go to mental health facilities, unless they are called. The officer team definitely needs more training about how to treat a volatile environment. Tragic, both for the officer and the person shot.
 

DeletedUser3

Tragic for the officer?!? Well, tragic for his career perhaps, but hardly tragic otherwise. The overzealous cop fired only once, putting a single bullet square in the head of a wheelchair-bound double-amputee wielding a felt-tip pen with his "only" hand, killing him instantly. The tragedy is on the side of the relatives of this victim and, of course, the victim himself.
 

DeletedUser

The officer who was "trapped" most likely broke protocol (it shouldn't be possible for anyone to trap one of two officers on scene, particularly one with limited mobility). Sounds like they were playing negotiator without sufficient facts or training, and things spiraled out of control. It wasn't the shooting that was the error (the officer responded appropriately to the threat, harsh though that may sound). However, the officers choice of actions prior to the incident resulted in the forced decision. Also sounds like the caretaker was not up par on training (shouldn't there have been some better negotiating skills there? or at least better informing of the officers about the situation?)

Yes, it is possible that the officers were given training, and the caretaker gave them great information, and in spite of that the officer totally ignored both and decided to shoot the man, but I think that is highly unlikely for someone who wanted to make a career of law enforcement (a "Dirty Harry" type would have had many more instances than two). The officers (both of them) are guilty of entering a situation undertrained with an underestimation of things, but the shooting itself was not the problem.

Note: I am not in any way condoning the overall action of the officers. However, it is the prior actions, not the shooting itself, that are the real problem. This should not have happened.
 

DeletedUser34

hmmm, not long ago, there was a shooting at a Middle school, where the cop shot a kid to death for pointing a gun at them, turns out the gun was a fake water gun painted to look real. The kid who had it pointed at his head during the stand off thought it was real as well...

The cop took one shot and killed him rather than risk further injury to anyone. I truly TRULY do not see a comparison here that would allow a cop to shoot first and ask questions later. To say that is kind of simplistic.
 

DeletedUser

Do you honestly think a pen penetration from a double amputee will kill you..?
This is sickening. IMO, the police officer should be fired and sentenced to jail time.

With all do respect... You could run circles around a man in a wheelchair... Getting cornered by one is degrading to yourself...

Police officers have what in todays terms is called a FLASHLIGHT. I'm pretty damn well sure they just SAID they couldn't see the object the man was holding. In all reality, i'm sure they could.
 
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DeletedUser

Dark, I'm guessing you know few people who are (A) cops, or (B) confined to wheelchairs but active. Think about what you are saying...do you think that police officers routinely lie in their reports? Do you actually know anyone confined to a wheelchair who is still active (doing basketball, for example)...you might be surprised at how fast those wheelchairs can be maneuvered. SOP for police officers is to assume the worst case if you don't know...if someone won't show you his/her hands, assume it is holding a weapon...BTW this might save your life if you're ever in a situation where the cops can't see YOUR hands. And by the way, even the high-quality flashlights issued to today's law enforcement personnel do not provide X-ray vision or psychic abilities, and thus can be defeated by something as low-tech as a pocket!
I'm not condoning anything here, but do you really have enough information to make this kind of judgment? It's easy to be outraged by the situation, but as I have said in earlier posts, there is more blame to spread than just to the shooting officer...I can see scenarios where the other officer (who got cornered) and/or the healthcare worker were more to blame for what happened.
I'm curious about how you all would respond to the following question: we give police officers handguns, so presumably there are situations in which we would expect them to be useds. Under what circumstances should an officer engage his/her handgun?
 

DeletedUser34

I look at it like this, the gentleman in question in order to get from A to B needed to use his hands for mobility. It was established it was a pen he was using as a weapon. To say that he was a threat that needed to be killed based on the information we have is erhhhh ridiculous at best...This is a case where the police officer got antsy. Even the Zombie killer got a few non lethal shots before the kill shot. Cops are given tasers for situations such as this. Secondly, this is the second questionable shooting by this officer in 3 years. Had this been his first time, I'd think, over zealous yes, but not career ending...but 2nd? Maybe we need to look a little deeper.

And I do have police in my family. I also have military in my family. Your questions do not apply to this situation at all IMO
 

DeletedUser3

Dark, I'm guessing you know few people who are (A) cops, or (B) confined to wheelchairs but active.
Mind if I play?

I'm not Dark, but I'll jump in and answer those two questions:

(A) I have some friends who are police officers, correctional officers, and border patrol officers. None of them would fire only one bullet into what is perceived as a "threat." They are trained to fire three bullets per target, per assailant. They are also trained to fire center-mass, not perform head shots (let alone a single shot). As well, none of them would have fired at a mental health patient, within a mental health facility, who was in a wheelchair, had only one leg and one arm, and was wielding a felt tip pen (or even a pen knife if you want to argue presumption), when either one of them could easily have just pushed the wheelchair away or pushed it over.

(B) I know quite a few people in wheelchairs. In fact, I was in a wheelchair for a time while undergoing a series of surgeries to my legs/ankles. This particular patient had only ONE arm and ONE leg. In no uncertain terms, he could not maneuver his wheelchair to "trap" an able-bodied police officer whilst wielding a FELT TIP PEN with HIS ONLY HAND/ARM. It would be a breach of sanity to consider such a person as a threat.

Think about what you are saying...do you think that police officers routinely lie in their reports?
Irrelevant. It doesn't matter if some, most, or all officers never lie in their reports. All that matters is whether THIS PARTICULAR police officer lied in his report. And, even then, the facts in this case are indisputable. Double amputee, one arm, one leg, wheelchair, in a mental health facility, wielding something tiny in his only hand, one bullet, in the head.

Do you actually know anyone confined to a wheelchair who is still active (doing basketball, for example)...you might be surprised at how fast those wheelchairs can be maneuvered.
You might be surprised how one arm and one leg intrudes on your ability to maneuver in a wheelchair. I really don't want to present any more examples, personal, family, or otherwise to intrude upon your conjectures and inferences.

SOP for police officers is to assume the worst case if you don't know...if someone won't show you his/her hands, assume it is holding a weapon...BTW this might save your life if you're ever in a situation where the cops can't see YOUR hands.
SOP for police officers is to utilize a degree of common sense. Clearly that is not what happened here.

I'm curious about how you all would respond to the following question: we give police officers handguns, so presumably there are situations in which we would expect them to be useds. Under what circumstances should an officer engage his/her handgun?
Hypothetical derailment. Speculating on what circumstances they should engage their handgun is irrelevant because we have a circumstance presented here, in this thread. In this particular circumstance, the officer SHOULD NOT have engaged his/her handgun.
 

DeletedUser

I would love to play Devils Advocate here and say the police were in the right, but even I can't think of a good enough response that would give the Officer a shred of plausibility. The problem I have is that there are numerous other non-deadly actions both Officers could've taken that would have subdued this menace to the mentally-ill society. While I believe that the police need to, have to carry fire arms to protect their citizens I also believe they should be used as a last resort. Of course "beliefs" are as debatable as the topic at hand, no pun intended.
 

DeletedUser

Dom and Hellstrom, points accepted. I am not defending the officer (I think some people are taking what I had posted that way), but rather I am advocating that full accounts from all sides need to be reviewed before passing judgment. Since the only account is filtered through a media outlet that may have an economic reason for sensationalization, I tend to take the account with a grain of salt. If I have been over the top in a post I apologize.
 

DeletedUser3

Keefer, absolutely no reason to apologize. Debate & Discussion is about posing contention in a civil and respectful fashion, which you have clearly done. All good, all interesting, keep at it. ;)
 

DeletedUser34

Dom and Hellstrom, points accepted. I am not defending the officer (I think some people are taking what I had posted that way), but rather I am advocating that full accounts from all sides need to be reviewed before passing judgment. Since the only account is filtered through a media outlet that may have an economic reason for sensationalization, I tend to take the account with a grain of salt. If I have been over the top in a post I apologize.
It is all good. I have thick skin and don't take offense easy. Had you not posted this opposing opinion, this thread would have died a slow death, so you were needed :p Keep it up...and if I disliked everyone who differed in opinion from me, I would despise Hellstromm and Diggo. Sadly, that isn't the case :D
 

DeletedUser3

Lol, how can you mistake a blind man's white cane for a katana (samurai sword), particularly from a range needed to fire a wire-attached taser. And let's not forget the cop shot him in the back. Finally, it is not against the law to walk around with a sword in hand. I would say that particular cop is going to be working Walmart security for the remainder of his career, assuming they keep such a liability on the force.
 
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